The Heresy essays: X+Y=J Ned + Wylla

[corbon]

I know Edric Dayne has seen her and that she milked Jon and Edric (Though years apart).I was wondering what has the old gal been up to since.i kind of took away from Ed that she was no longer there.

She is quite clearly still serving at Starfall (or at least, serving House Dayne).

Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

 

She's and since both indicate a current context. If she was no longer serving them it would just be 'she' and from instead of since (from is naturally close ending but the missing 'until' could be now or earlier. Since though is open ended and implies continuance).
She served us for years and years. From before I was born.

[corbon]

On the bolded--Ned talks about betraying Cat with a lot of emotion (for Ned). If he didn't cheat on Cat, he seems to be channeling some other guilt into the assertion.

He told the world (including her) he cheated on her. Thats practically the same thing at least with respect to her honour and the damage done to their relationship. 
A good man, like Ned, there's plenty enough betrayal in that to account for real emotion and sorrow over it.

 

What does hold up, in my opinion at least, is that Ned is asking for several specific things in this prayer. He is asking for two individuals (might not include Jon) to grow up close as brothers, with only love between them. This seems a bit queer if he's actually talking about Theon and Robb. Why would Ned wish for them to love each other?

Wasn't Theon about 6 when he was brought to Winterfell? Not so much of growing up together close as brother to do then as Jon and Robb. 

I see the latter part referring to any woman married to Ned. That is either Catelyn (canonical) or possibly Wylla/Ashara (theoretical). Ambiguity abounds as ever, but Bran does name this man as his father, and this man does name his lady wife in his prayer. And, what he requests in it, is for his lady wife to find it in her heart to forgive... "Forgive what?" we are supposed to ask. What sort of forgiveness might a man require of his lady wife? What forgiveness might he desire in relation to two individuals he would hopes will grow up close as brothers with only love between them?

See above. He's publicly insulted her by bringing home a bastard he fathered after they married. And keeps that fact in her face every day. He has plenty to be forgiven of by his lady wife even if he never touched another woman in his life.

[Voice]

 

Hmm. I only now noticed the wording of the above prayer- Ned never specifies who it is his wife should be forgiving, does he? Does that sentence end with 'me', 'Brandon', 'her father', 'my father'?

Mayhaps. But would Ned wish for his wife to forgive Brandon? I don't think Ned would attempt to gloss over his behavior, if he happened to dishonor one of the women in his past. (Hence my reasons for not believing Rhaegar ever dishonored Lyanna.)

Rickard would have been dead and gone long before Ned was worrying about raising children.

Her own father, now...I can see that having some serious possibilities. Hosteen seems to have some skeletons in the closet, though it seems unlikely the Old Gods would hold sway over them. But... who knows what daddy-issues Ashara and Wylla had/have.

 

 

See above. He's publicly insulted her by bringing home a bastard he fathered after they married. And keeps that fact in her face every day. He has plenty to be forgiven of by his lady wife even if he never touched another woman in his life.

Quite familiar with the common interpretations, corbon. 

I must point out that we do not know if Cat and Robb were yet living at Winterfell when Ned made this plea. And, in any case, it seems a peculiar prayer to make after keeping Jon in her face every day. I'm thinking this prayer dates to very shortly after Ned's return from the south. If Catelyn was at Winterfell, she was still a recent newcomer, adjusting to northern realities.

[wolfmaid7]

 

I'm having some trouble with this new interface. Liked the old one a lot more tbh. But anyhoo, to the bold above, check out this quote:

The Rogue Prince

 

Geeze, pray like Ned much?

 

I think this passage is a strong point in favor of Jon being a Dayne, nursed by Starfall's version of Old Nan. I think House Dayne would have wanted to prevent enmity between Jon and Edric. But I digress...

 

 

 

What isn't ambiguous at this point? Every point has a counterpoint, and there are enough words in the series that pretty much any crackpot can have accurate citations (LmL... kidding! lol).

What does hold up, in my opinion at least, is that Ned is asking for several specific things in this prayer. He is asking for two individuals (might not include Jon) to grow up close as brothers, with only love between them. This seems a bit queer if he's actually talking about Theon and Robb. Why would Ned wish for them to love each other?

I see the latter part referring to any woman married to Ned. That is either Catelyn (canonical) or possibly Wylla/Ashara (theoretical). Ambiguity abounds as ever, but Bran does name this man as his father, and this man does name his lady wife in his prayer. And, what he requests in it, is for his lady wife to find it in her heart to forgive... "Forgive what?" we are supposed to ask. What sort of forgiveness might a man require of his lady wife? What forgiveness might he desire in relation to two individuals he would hopes will grow up close as brothers with only love between them?

We've all heard how this implies Jon is not Ned's son, ad nauseam. That ground has been plowed and plowed and plowed. So I'm all for throwing new ideas at the Wall and seeing what sticks. Might Ned believe Robb is not his son? Might Ned be talking about Benjen and Jeor? Or Edric Dayne and Jon Snow-Sand? lol... anything is possible.

Ideas are sweet, but cannot change a story's nature. Few ideas seem to fit as well as the idea that Jon is not Ned's biological son. I personally quite hope that he is, and that Ashara Dayne is his mother (see Rogue Prince citation above), but that's another thread, and this prayer remains a possible contradiction. A contradiction that may well point toward Jon being Lyanna's son rather than Ashara's or Wylla's. 

The mention of "lady wife" is quite intriguing to me. It conjures the idea of a Direwolf married to a Catfish, and the memory of Lady (Sansa's wolf), and Lyanna (the dead she-wolf) simultaneously. Child-women all, at one time. Each a Stark, at one time. Each dead before their time? Each wronged at one time by Ned?

Hopefully Bran will shed some new light on this very soon.

I think its a great guess that its Jon and Robb he's talking about there and he confessed to "vaginizing" reverse "cuckhold" Cat.Those two things are exclusive and the least ambiguous.

She is quite clearly still serving at Starfall (or at least, serving House Dayne).

Arya was lost. "Who's Wylla?"

"Jon Snow's mother. He never told you? She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

 

She's and since both indicate a current context. If she was no longer serving them it would just be 'she' and from instead of since (from is naturally close ending but the missing 'until' could be now or earlier. Since though is open ended and implies continuance).
She served us for years and years. From before I was born.

Thank you for the citation Corbon,i was going by memory,as currently i don't have my books,but based on the the contet you are correct.

 

He told the world (including her) he cheated on her. Thats practically the same thing at least with respect to her honour and the damage done to their relationship. 
A good man, like Ned, there's plenty enough betrayal in that to account for real emotion and sorrow over it.

Wasn't Theon about 6 when he was brought to Winterfell? Not so much of growing up together close as brother to do then as Jon and Robb. 

See above. He's publicly insulted her by bringing home a bastard he fathered after they married. And keeps that fact in her face every day. He has plenty to be forgiven of by his lady wife even if he never touched another woman in his life.

I quite agree with this.

[Melifeather]

If Ned is Jon's father, he'd still pray that Robb and Jon grow up close as brothers, and he hopes Catelyn forgives his betrayal.

If Lyanna is Jon's mother and Ned is his uncle, he'd still pray that Robb and Jon grow up close as brothers, and he hopes Catelyn forgives his betrayal and his lies.

I think Wylla was always employed at Starfall the whole time. Ned had to come up with a fake introduction at the start of the Rebellion to fit Jon's timeline, but using her name as Jon's mother does imply that the Daynes are fully complicit in the lie.

[corbon]

 

Quite familiar with the common interpretations, corbon. 

Does that mean they must be ignored? Sly Wren inferred a question. I merely pointed out that there is a very clear and non-problematic answer/explanation right in front of us.

Thank you for the citation Corbon,i was going by memory,as currently i don't have my books,but based on the the contet you are correct.

I quite agree with this.

:) Its always good to have some point of agreement with someone I am usually on opposite sides from. 
FYI, in case you didn't know, I find the asearchoficeandfire.com website great for finding quotes. Its not foolproof, but you only have to remember a keyword or two (in this case "Wylla")...
Given that you can't get any section longer than a couple of paragraphs, its not like its a 'reading' website that is stealing GRRM's work.

 

I think Wylla was always employed at Starfall the whole time. Ned had to come up with a fake introduction at the start of the Rebellion to fit Jon's timeline, but using her name as Jon's mother does imply that the Daynes are fully complicit in the lie.

We are having an interesting discussion on that elsewhere.
I point out that Ned did not need to come up with anything. Every time Jon's origins come up in his vicinity he successfully shuts down the conversation, even with Robert his King. There is no indication anywhere from anyone that Ned told them anything about Jon other than that he was his blood/bastard/son etc.
Ned told Robert Wylla's name, twice (once in our sight, and in that same conversation Robert recalls Ned told him the name once before), but a careful reading shows that Ned never makes any claim about her as Jon's mother and its Robert that jumps to the conclusion that she was Jon's mother. Its entirely possible, I would say heavily probable based on Ned's pattern handling the subject and Robert's own behaviour and likely thought pathways that Robert jumped to that conclusion on his own the first time too (no known mother but the wetnurse-as-mother is an old old way of taking responsibility for the woman as well as the child while maintaining as much honour as possible given that you have a bastard, and Robert is just happy mister precious honour Ned is not so perfect after all, making Robert's huge foibles in that area seem slightly less terrible). In fact, if you think about it, if Robert is going nudge nudge wink wink mate, the wetnurse, whats her name eh, pretty special wench huh? etc then even an outright denial by Ned (her name is Wylla, she's just a wetnurse" is only going to cement the idea she's the mother in Robert's head.
In addition, claiming Wylla is Jon's mother would be a really stupid move for Ned. He cannot know where she was throughout the 10 months or so preceding the birth and more importantly he cannot know for sure who knew where she was. So the lie is not controlled and he can easily be caught out lying, which then begs the question of what is he hiding that he had to lie to Robert about it for... He is far better doing exactly as we see him do to Robert and Catelyn, which is shut down any lines of questioning about Jon immediately.
He can answer questions about Wylla though, he has too. She's nothing, just a wetnurse, so trying to 'hide' anything about her just invites closer inspection and more questions.
Further, as to 'his story' not being 'it was Wylla', clearly that is not the story around Winterfell. No one there even thinks of her by name or position. And if thats not his story at Winterfell, its not going to be his story in KL - pretty damn stupid to be telling different stories in different places!

As to whether she went to Winterfell, yes its completely possible she did not. However, I just don't see any sense in not taking her to Winterfell.
Whoever he takes to WInterfell is going to be in an identical situation to Wylla. Some southern woman hired as a wetnurse for the mysteriously-un-mothered-bastard. Suspicion will naturally fall on her in some circles, though that would be easily dispelled by anyone seeing them interact.
In addition, if she was at ToJ anyway ("they" etc) and already knows far too much, why would he leave a virtual stranger completely out of his control in Starfall, where he can't even see who asks questions, let alone what the questions or answer might be. At Winterfell though he has a considerable measure of control over such things, and by the time Jon is weaned he has had a chance to see enough of her to respect her discretion and understand her loyalties (not to mention that keeping a southerner in Winterfell if she is not comfortable there given the climate and culture differences and probably a social climate of passive hostility from Catelyn is probably not conducive to maintaining her loyalty and discretion).

So really, it makes no sense to make an unnecessary wetnurse change either at the beginning or part way through the journey back home to Winterfell. Not from any persective.

And I don't think he needs any complicity with the Daynes to use her name (not that I rule it out). She's a southerner, probably selected by Arthur Dayne and so already associated with that House in some way, and when he's done with her services he sends her back South with a recommendation - which given he returned Dawn to them is worth its weight in gold.

[wolfmaid7]

If Ned is Jon's father, he'd still pray that Robb and Jon grow up close as brothers, and he hopes Catelyn forgives his betrayal.

If Lyanna is Jon's mother and Ned is his uncle, he'd still pray that Robb and Jon grow up close as brothers, and he hopes Catelyn forgives his betrayal and his lies.

I think Wylla was always employed at Starfall the whole time. Ned had to come up with a fake introduction at the start of the Rebellion to fit Jon's timeline, but using her name as Jon's mother does imply that the Daynes are fully complicit in the lie.

I don't know that Ned,had to when we look at all the conversations around who Jon's mother is,(because everyone accepts Ned as his dad) he avoids giving any detail,heck he totally shuts that down.

.

Its always good to have some point of agreement with someone I am usually on opposite sides from. FYI, in case you didn't know, I find the asearchoficeandfire.com website great for finding quotes. Its not foolproof, but you only have to remember a keyword or two (in this case "Wylla")...
Given that you can't get any section longer than a couple of paragraphs, its not like its a 'reading' website that is stealing GRRM's work.

We are having an interesting discussion on that elsewhere.I point out that Ned did not need to come up with anything. Every time Jon's origins come up in his vicinity he successfully shuts down the conversation, even with Robert his King. There is no indication anywhere from anyone that Ned told them anything about Jon other than that he was his blood/bastard/son etc.

 That's the way it goes sometimes.Oh and thanks for the info on the site,i'll definitely keep that for future use.

I'm also so glad someone else  picked up on the bolded,this is one of the many examples of what i believe is GRRMs way of playing with and showcasing how perception often leads to conclusions.Ned is an expert at non-committance,the dude cops to and denies nothing.Its a whatever people think kind of deal with him.I did initially thought that possibly Robert had asked Ned who Jon's mom was and Ned gave an answer ,then i realized that Robert was "fishing" for an answer with the "you know the one i'm speaking of" I don't think he actually had a clue about anyone in particular given how many rumours were floating i've done that several times before and its just a natural way someone who wants to "be up in yuh buisness" would fish for it.But Ned just tells Robert leave it alone.

It would be interesting to see what Wylla would say,i assume she would have the wit enough to continue with the ruse if she believed what Ned was doing was to protect the child.Which brings me back to the OP.What's the big deal never telling Jon or Cat .He can't dishonor himself anyome than he already did.He can't make Jon less a bastard etc.

 

[corbon]

I'm also so glad someone else  picked up on the bolded,this is one of the many examples of what i believe is GRRMs way of playing with and showcasing how perception often leads to conclusions.Ned is an expert at non-committance,the dude cops to and denies nothing.Its a whatever people think kind of deal with him.I did initially thought that possibly Robert had asked Ned who Jon's mom was and Ned gave an answer ,then i realized that Robert was "fishing" for an answer with the "you know the one i'm speaking of" I don't think he actually had a clue about anyone in particular given how many rumours were floating i've done that several times before and its just a natural way someone who wants to "be up in yuh buisness" would fish for it.But Ned just tells Robert leave it alone.

Oh, back to normal, some disagreement, however minor.
I don't think Robert is 'fishing' for an answer. I am very confident Robert already thinks he knows the answer, he just can't remember the name (he never met her and Ned told him the name but not even what she looked like).
But he does ignore Ned's first polite shutdown, and Ned has to get all heavy on him before he leaves off.

It would be interesting to see what Wylla would say,i assume she would have the wit enough to continue with the ruse if she believed what Ned was doing was to protect the child.Which brings me back to the OP.What's the big deal never telling Jon or Cat .He can't dishonor himself anyome than he already did.He can't make Jon less a bastard etc.

 

Interestingly we don't hear at all anything about what Wylla says. A casual read seems to suggest that she claims Jon as her own, or at least as Ned Dayne's milk brother, but a close examination shows that there too GRRM has been subtle and there is no actual indication that she has said anything from Ned Dayne.

And I agree she would have the with to continue the ruse - if it is a ruse. OTOH I think that all that is necessary is for her to say little or nothing. In fact, I could easily see her outright denying it, and that just increasing everyone's certainty that its true.
"Go on Wylla, you were Lord Stark's squeeze, you and the kid Jon. Tells us whats he's like then. Did he beat Ser Arthur in a great fight?"
"Look, I'm just a wetnurse. Thats all. I was never Lord Stark's 'squeeze' and I don't know anything about Ser Arthur."
"Yeah right missus, whatever you say, not the squeeze, suuure <big smile>, but tell us about the fight then."

The whole point is that as the wetnurse-pretending-not-to-be-the-mother she's supposed to deny it, so denying it can in some cases just cement people's opinions.

 

[wolfmaid7]

Oh, back to normal, some disagreement, however minor.
I don't think Robert is 'fishing' for an answer. I am very confident Robert already thinks he knows the answer, he just can't remember the name (he never met her and Ned told him the name but not even what she looked like).
But he does ignore Ned's first polite shutdown, and Ned has to get all heavy on him before he leaves off.

Interestingly we don't hear at all anything about what Wylla says. A casual read seems to suggest that she claims Jon as her own, or at least as Ned Dayne's milk brother, but a close examination shows that there too GRRM has been subtle and there is no actual indication that she has said anything from Ned Dayne.

And I agree she would have the with to continue the ruse - if it is a ruse. OTOH I think that all that is necessary is for her to say little or nothing. In fact, I could easily see her outright denying it, and that just increasing everyone's certainty that its true.
"Go on Wylla, you were Lord Stark's squeeze, you and the kid Jon. Tells us whats he's like then. Did he beat Ser Arthur in a great fight?"
"Look, I'm just a wetnurse. Thats all. I was never Lord Stark's 'squeeze' and I don't know anything about Ser Arthur."
"Yeah right missus, whatever you say, not the squeeze, suuure <big smile>, but tell us about the fight then."

The whole point is that as the wetnurse-pretending-not-to-be-the-mother she's supposed to deny it, so denying it can in some cases just cement people's opinions.

 

I'm not sure we are in too much of a disagreement,i can see it that way;him thinking he knows.I'm sure he must have heard some of the rumours and possibly looking for confirmation of those.To your point,he may or may not have met which is what i think he was trying to determine by saying Ned never told him what she looked like.To me the "you know the one i'm talking about" could mean Robert saw whereby he drew a conclusion,or he was bluffing about Ned ever having given him a name in order to make Ned think he had so that he would offer up a name.

True true,i could see her denying it and people saying "Right Wylla,wink wink." I think some people so want to know honerable Ned wasn't so honerable they will refuse a truth.And it could simply be that he had a moment of weakness and banged some common girl.

[corbon]

I'm not sure we are in too much of a disagreement,

JMe eiethr, just me trying to get back to normality.

i can see it that way;him thinking he knows.I'm sure he must have heard some of the rumours and possibly looking for confirmation of those.To your point,he may or may not have met which is what i think he was trying to determine by saying Ned never told him what she looked like.To me the "you know the one i'm talking about" could mean Robert saw whereby he drew a conclusion,or he was bluffing about Ned ever having given him a name in order to make Ned think he had so that he would offer up a name.

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time¹ … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once². Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her.³"

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned⁴. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like ⁵…"
Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me⁶. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.⁷"

Here's how I read the passage.
Robert is complaining about Ned being all responsible and shit (IIRC the immediate previous passage is when Robert is advocating he and Ned just ride off free and alone to fight and wench tavern girls forever like the good old days, and Ned brings him back to earth). Then he remembers the hint of an exception... (1)
Ned has explicitly told Robert the name of the woman he is thinking of (the exception, Ned's supposed moment of irresponsibility) once before (2).
Ned gives the name again (Wylla), because its not something he needs to hide and he did it before, but then warns Robert off the subject lightly (3)
Robert ignores the warning, still in the moment, thinking about the must-have-been-damn-hot chick that made Ned slip up (4)
Robert, still thinking of the hotness of the chick wants at least a description to help his idealisations and pushes Ned. (5) This could be with either with a dreamy unfocused look on his face (happy grin) because he's in the moment thinking about girls, or with a sharper more teasing type humour look at Ned (sly grin) because he's aware enough to be enjoying his friend's discomfort at being imperfect (and he wants the visualisation, he is after all still Robert). Both options work for me both with the dialogue and the characters.
Ned shuts him down hard (6).
Ned provides the excuse for the hard shut down (7).

I think its clear that he never met Wylla, since he remembers Ned tod him her name, but still fishes for what she looks like.
I guess the subtle difference between us now is that I think he fishes for what she looked like because he already has his mind made up, he just wants salacious details to think about, whereas you seem to see it as still fishing for confirmation.
I don't think Robert's that subtle.

True true,i could see her denying it and people saying "Right Wylla,wink wink." I think some people so want to know honerable Ned wasn't so honerable they will refuse a truth.And it could simply be that he had a moment of weakness and banged some common girl.

Thats human. And all the more so for people like Robert with egregious faults in that direction. It makes his own flaws slightly less pathetic in his self conceptualization if mr perfect shares them at least a little bit, and everyone wants that!

[dornishdame]

First off, kudos to all involved in the production of the essays; a great way to investigate the issue of Jon's parentage.  While I am a believer in R+L=J, I do accept that there are multiple options put forward in the series for Jon's parentage and all have merit.  I also think that there is an element of truth in the three main options presented with Ned as Jon's father (Ned/Wylla, Ned/Ashara & Ned/Fisherman's daughter) - and this is ultimately why he has been able to get away with hiding R+L=J for the duration of Jon's lifetime. 

Now, to the issue of Wylla.....

I think its clear that he never met Wylla, since he remembers Ned tod him her name, but still fishes for what she looks like.

 - and would add that this does bring up, for me, the issue of when Ned claimed Jon as his son. Was it during his return to King's Landing? Was it after Ned had returned to Winterfell? Given that around that time Robert would have been distracted by his grief for Lyanna, perhaps Ned didn't have to give out too much information regarding Wylla.  There is also Cersei's comments on Jon's mother to be considered.  The mention of Lady Ashara and a "Dornish peasant" is interesting - does this link in with when Ned told Robert about Jon's existence, or where he met Wylla? Possibly not, given that I doubt Robert and Cersei would ever have discussed the subject

After the war, Ned returned to Winterfell, and Robert stayed in King's Landing.  Given that TWOIAF gives limited information about Ned and Robert's meetings between their reconciliation in King's Landing following Lyanna's death and Robert's visit to Winterfell, Ned would have been able to prevent extensive questioning about Wylla (at least, from Robert). In AGOT, it appears that the last time they met was following the Greyjoy rebellion. And from Ned's comments about northerners not being used to kings, it would indicate that Robert has not been north since his coronation.  There is reference to a meeting with Cersei while she was nursing Tommen, but it is not clear if Robert was present. Ravens between the two would have spoken of family births and deaths, of their wives and children.  Robert wouldn't have pestered Ned repeatedly about the identity of Jon's mother.  And so, it is my view that Robert and Ned have not spoken of Wylla for a long time. 

We all speak of Ned's honor, but if he fathered Jon on Wylla while Catelyn was pregnant with their first child, that was hardly honorable. On the other hand, if he spent Robert's entire reign lying about Jon's parentage to the point it seems to have been a flashpoint between himself and Catelyn, that is hardly honorable either.  

Finally, the Daynes. IF Wylla is not Jon's mother, why are they quite happy to make it common knowledge at Starfall that she is? 

[Melifeather]

 

Now, to the issue of Wylla.....

Finally, the Daynes. IF Wylla is not Jon's mother, why are they quite happy to make it common knowledge at Starfall that she is? 

Exactly the point I was trying to make. The Daynes are complicit in the lie. It's up to us to theorize as to the "why".

[wolfmaid7]

JMe eiethr, just me trying to get back to normality.

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time¹ … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once². Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her.³"

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned⁴. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like ⁵…"
Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me⁶. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.⁷"

Here's how I read the passage.
Robert is complaining about Ned being all responsible and shit (IIRC the immediate previous passage is when Robert is advocating he and Ned just ride off free and alone to fight and wench tavern girls forever like the good old days, and Ned brings him back to earth). Then he remembers the hint of an exception... (1)
Ned has explicitly told Robert the name of the woman he is thinking of (the exception, Ned's supposed moment of irresponsibility) once before (2).
Ned gives the name again (Wylla), because its not something he needs to hide and he did it before, but then warns Robert off the subject lightly (3)
Robert ignores the warning, still in the moment, thinking about the must-have-been-damn-hot chick that made Ned slip up (4)
Robert, still thinking of the hotness of the chick wants at least a description to help his idealisations and pushes Ned. (5) This could be with either with a dreamy unfocused look on his face (happy grin) because he's in the moment thinking about girls, or with a sharper more teasing type humour look at Ned (sly grin) because he's aware enough to be enjoying his friend's discomfort at being imperfect (and he wants the visualisation, he is after all still Robert). Both options work for me both with the dialogue and the characters.
Ned shuts him down hard (6).
Ned provides the excuse for the hard shut down (7).

I think its clear that he never met Wylla, since he remembers Ned tod him her name, but still fishes for what she looks like.
I guess the subtle difference between us now is that I think he fishes for what she looked like because he already has his mind made up, he just wants salacious details to think about, whereas you seem to see it as still fishing for confirmation.
I don't think Robert's that subtle.

Thats human. And all the more so for people like Robert with egregious faults in that direction. It makes his own flaws slightly less pathetic in his self conceptualization if mr perfect shares them at least a little bit, and everyone wants that!

Yeah i agree Robert never met Wylla the point i'm making is "the fact" Robert has someone in mind ,made clear by his specifying " that common girl of yours" and "you know the one i mean" you see what i'm getting at? The question then becomes who does he have in mind and why? Or as i said before he could be bluffing a bit in hopes that Ned would reveal more.In this case fishing for what the woman looks like.

I think,Robert can be subtle if he wants to 

The point i'm trying to drive at is that Robert has someone in mind in the first place and what is the origin of him getting there.

[dornishdame]

 

Exactly the point I was trying to make. The Daynes are complicit in the lie. It's up to us to theorize as to the "why".

 

The only theories I have ever been able to come up with as to why the Daynes would lie about Wylla being Jon's mother are:

1) IF R+L=J, then Ned can use what happened to Rhaenys and Aegon to plead with the Daynes to help him safe Jon from the same fate. Alternatively, he can impress on them that they are essentially continuing what Arthur did in protecting Rhaegar's son.  I do also believe the theory that Aerion Brightflame's son married into a branch of the Dayne family (there are similarities between his appearance and that of Darkstar) - if that is the case, then the Daynes would understand the importance of keeping a Targaryen heir away from the attention of a king that might decide they were a threat.

2) If Lady Ashara was the mother, to hide her connection to the child.  This may be unlikely, given that in Dorne bastards are not frowned upon as they are in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.  But, perhaps there is a distinction between the bastards of high-born women and low-born. And as such, Lady Ashara might not be as attractive a bride if she comes with a bastard son. 

And again, that is mostly based on ifs, buts and maybes.  But for some reason, it is because Ned gives up Wylla's name, albeit grudgingly, and has a back story all prepared with witnesses (Edric Dayne) that I don't quite believe in it.  If Jon's mother was a Dornish serving woman of some description, why didn't Ned simply tell Catelyn, or, more importantly, Jon? 

[corbon]

 

Exactly the point I was trying to make. The Daynes are complicit in the lie. It's up to us to theorize as to the "why".

First, its worth noting that although young Ned Dayne is Lord of Starfall, that does not mean that he is speaking 'House Knowledge' (for lack of a better term). He's a kid, and hes been away from Strfall since he was seven as Lord Beric's page then squire.
His stated source for at least some of his information is 'my aunt Allyria'. Who has been betrothed to Lord Beric for 5 or 6 years, but still not married - which rather indicates she's very young, probably close to Ned's age, rather than old enough to have been around and cognizant of events more than 15 years ago.
So its entirely possibly that Edric is merely repeating local gossip he heard as a child, rather than official House Dayne knowledge held by senior members of the House (even though he's technically now the Lord).

So its not necessary that 'the Daynes' be complicit in any lie.

Secondly, its also entirely possible that the Daynes even the most senior, don't actually know anything. Even if Wylla was at ToJ, even if Arthur was responsible for finding her, heck even if Starfall was secretly providing logistical support to ToJ, its not a necessary requirement that Starfall knows anything about Wylla, or Jon's origins.
Instead, its still entirely possible that Starfall simply saw Wylla ride in with Ned, nursing Jon, and jumped to conclusions when Ned refuses to talk. After all, they know Ashara isn't the mother, so they lack any real candidate, making the wetnurse the oldest story in the book, especially for a man like Ned who honours his responsibilities.

I'm not saying that that the Daynes can't know, or even that its likely that they don't know. I'm just pointing out that we have no indication that they do know and thus no indication that they are 'complicit' in anything more than finding a gossipy story that works for them.

Yeah i agree Robert never met Wylla the point i'm making is "the fact" Robert has someone in mind ,made clear by his specifying " that common girl of yours" and "you know the one i mean" you see what i'm getting at? The question then becomes who does he have in mind and why? Or as i said before he could be bluffing a bit in hopes that Ned would reveal more.In this case fishing for what the woman looks like.

I think,Robert can be subtle if he wants to 

The point i'm trying to drive at is that Robert has someone in mind in the first place and what is the origin of him getting there.

Oh, I see. I agree, he definitely hs someone in mind - Wylla, the name Ned told him once before. He clearly believes Wylla is Jon's mother. And yes, the mystery is how he came to that conclusion.
The common postulation to that mystery is that Ned told him. I think that answer runs counter to the text and logic. I suggest a different postulation, that Robert came to that conclusion on his own, and the reason he knows the name is becaase he asked Ned about the wetnurse. As we saw, Ned has no reason not to be open about the wetnurse's name if asked directly, but he does shut the conversation down as quickly as possible.

As to why Robert would come to that conclusion?
If he hears Ned has a bastard with him, he's going to be curious. Not raging intense curious, he's got too much shit going down (newly crowned King, just married to Cersei, grieving Lyanna, restoring the realm, etc etc) for that, but curious non the less. He's going to wonder who the mother is, how did his mr-damned-perfect friend slip up?
I don't think the Ashara idea would fit for him. Its too big a slip up for Ned, knocking up an unmarried noblewoman (and one on the opposite side, from the deep south, to boot), if Ned had had a thing for Ashara previously I'm sure Robert would expect to have heard about it (her) before, and I think Robert would be aware how difficult it would be to hide a relationship with a noblewoman in an army encampment vs how easy to knock up a peasant girl and no one remember her with any significance etc etc etc. So Robert lacks any obvious candidate for the mother. But Ned is very much a man of the people, a man who cares for his troops, a man who makes sure they are looked after and their needs a re met, and Robert would know this well. So if Ned knocked up some peasant girl in a moment of weakness, he'd surely take responsibility for both the child and the mother. And the age old way of making sure the mother has is looked after, has enough to eat, a place to live, a wage, a livelihood etc, is to hire her as the wetnurse. Plus it means she gets to bond with her child in some way, even if her status can't be officially acknowledged because the Lord is actually married already.
So its a natural guess for Robert. What would Ned do to make things better if he knocked some peasant girl up?
So Robert asks Ned about the wetnurse. Ned has no reason not to give Robert her name. He doesn't want to be seen to be 'hiding' anything about the woman, because that moves her from 'a nobody' to 'a mysterious nobody' and invites more attention.
And then if Ned denies it, well thats just confirmation really. Because officially she's not the mother, that would be really dishonouring Catelyn.

 

The only theories I have ever been able to come up with as to why the Daynes would lie about Wylla being Jon's mother are:

1) IF R+L=J, then Ned can use what happened to Rhaenys and Aegon to plead with the Daynes to help him safe Jon from the same fate. Alternatively, he can impress on them that they are essentially continuing what Arthur did in protecting Rhaegar's son.  I do also have a theory that Aerion Brightflame's son married into a branch of the Dayne family (there are similarities between his appearance and that of Darkstar) - if that is the case, then the Daynes would understand the importance of keeping a Targaryen heir away from the attention of a king that might decide they were a threat.

2) If Lady Ashara was the mother, to hide her connection to the child.  This may be unlikely, given that in Dorne bastards are not frowned upon as they are in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.  But, perhaps there is a distinction between the bastards of high-born women and low-born. And as such, Lady Ashara might not be as attractive a bride if she comes with a bastard son. 

And again, that is mostly based on ifs, buts and maybes.  But for some reason, it is because Ned gives up Wylla's name, albeit grudgingly, and has a back story all prepared with witnesses (Edric Dayne) that I don't quite believe in it.  If Jon's mother was a Dornish serving woman of some description, why didn't Ned simply tell Catelyn, or, more importantly, Jon? 

Options:
1. They aren't lying because its true (yeah, nah, that one fails on multiple levels, but its a possible reason why they'd say that.
2. They aren't lying, they genuinely believe that (see above), or its just their best gossipy story, they just happen to be wrong
3. The senior Daynes know better, but this information is merely castle gossip and the plebs and very junior Daynes don't know better
4. They (senior Daynes) know completely and were already complicit with ToJ. So their support is for keeping Jon Targaryen alive, and the best and only chance for that now is as Ned's bastard. And Wylla is the safest story for that.
5. They (senior Daynes) know R+L=J origins but not a lot more and their support is still for keeping Jon alive etc.
6. They know (or don't) Jon's origins but believe (f)Aegon is the heir (they believe Varys' claim to have spirited him away from KL and are helping Varys) so are content with Ned keeping Jon as his bastard for now.
7. Ashara is the mother but they are avoiding the dishonour to her (not for marriage, she just committed suicide, but for her good memory), but thats pretty weak even if you ignore the multidunious flaws in Ashara being the mother.

I'm sure there are more variations possible.
I think 1 and 7 are so weak as to be all but dismissable, but all of the others are solidly reasonable options

[wolfmaid7]

So its entirely possibly that Edric is merely repeating local gossip he heard as a child, rather than official House Dayne knowledge held by senior members of the House (even though he's technically now the Lord).

So its not necessary that 'the Daynes' be complicit in any lie.

Secondly, its also entirely possible that the Daynes even the most senior, don't actually know anything.

Oh, I see. I agree, he definitely hs someone in mind - Wylla, the name Ned told him once before. He clearly believes Wylla is Jon's mother. And yes, the mystery is how he came to that conclusion.The common postulation to that mystery is that Ned told him. I think that answer runs counter to the text and logic. I suggest a different postulation, that Robert came to that conclusion on his own, and the reason he knows the name is becaase he asked Ned about the wetnurse. As we saw, Ned has no reason not to be open about the wetnurse's name if asked directly, but he does shut the conversation down as quickly as possible.

As to why Robert would come to that conclusion?
If he hears Ned has a bastard with him, he's going to be curious. Not raging intense curious, he's got too much shit going down (newly crowned King, just married to Cersei, grieving Lyanna, restoring the realm, etc etc) for that, but curious non the less. He's going to wonder who the mother is, how did his mr-damned-perfect friend slip up?
I don't think the Ashara idea would fit for him. Its too big a slip up for Ned, knocking up an unmarried noblewoman (and one on the opposite side, from the deep south, to boot), if Ned had had a thing for Ashara previously I'm sure Robert would expect to have heard about it (her) before, and I think Robert would be aware how difficult it would be to hide a relationship with a noblewoman in an army encampment vs how easy to knock up a peasant girl and no one remember her with any significance etc etc etc. So Robert lacks any obvious candidate for the mother. But Ned is very much a man of the people, a man who cares for his troops, a man who makes sure they are looked after and their needs a re met, and Robert would know this well. So if Ned knocked up some peasant girl in a moment of weakness, he'd surely take responsibility for both the child and the mother. And the age old way of making sure the mother has is looked after, has enough to eat, a place to live, a wage, a livelihood etc, is to hire her as the wetnurse. Plus it means she gets to bond with her child in some way, even if her status can't be officially acknowledged because the Lord is actually married already.
So its a natural guess for Robert. What would Ned do to make things better if he knocked some peasant girl up?
So Robert asks Ned about the wetnurse. Ned has no reason not to give Robert her name. He doesn't want to be seen to be 'hiding' anything about the woman, because that moves her from 'a nobody' to 'a mysterious nobody' and invites more attention.
And then if Ned denies it, well thats just confirmation really. Because officially she's not the mother, that would be really dishonouring Catelyn.

Options:1. They aren't lying because its true (yeah, nah, that one fails on multiple levels, but its a possible reason why they'd say that.
2. They aren't lying, they genuinely believe that (see above), or its just their best gossipy story, they just happen to be wrong
3. The senior Daynes know better, but this information is merely castle gossip and the plebs and very junior Daynes don't know better
4. They (senior Daynes) know completely and were already complicit with ToJ. So their support is for keeping Jon Targaryen alive, and the best and only chance for that now is as Ned's bastard. And Wylla is the safest story for that.
5. They (senior Daynes) know R+L=J origins but not a lot more and their support is still for keeping Jon alive etc.
6. They know (or don't) Jon's origins but believe (f)Aegon is the heir (they believe Varys' claim to have spirited him away from KL and are helping Varys) so are content with Ned keeping Jon as his bastard for now.
7. Ashara is the mother but they are avoiding the dishonour to her (not for marriage, she just committed suicide, but for her good memory), but thats pretty weak even if you ignore the multidunious flaws in Ashara being the mother.

I'm sure there are more variations possible.
I think 1 and 7 are so weak as to be all but dismissable, but all of the others are solidly reasonable options

Just a reminder per the OP we would really appreciate keeping discussions in relation to the topic.Remember every prospect is being viewed from its own merit and there is no default prospect.

Its entirely possible that the Daynes have no clue who Jon's mother is or they know as much or less as everyone else.Meaning Edric as you say maybe repeating rumours in that part and the elder Daynes may just by into the tale that Ned screwed Wylla and got her preggers.The Daynes supported the Targs so if they had Jon they had a hostage of  a rebel leader and that's all that would matter at that point...screw Wylla.It so happens Ned ended up with Dawn to trade for his son/blood.

Also,wouldn't Robert have to had seen Wylla to ask about her or ok i see he heard about the wetnurse and just asked about her assuming she wasn't just the wetnurse (wink wink)

[corbon]

 

Also,wouldn't Robert have to had seen Wylla to ask about her or ok i see he heard about the wetnurse and just asked about her assuming she wasn't just the wetnurse (wink wink)

Exactly.
He implies (strongly) that he never saw her when he complains Ned never told him what she looked like.

We don't actually know if Robert knows she was the wetnurse or not. But she clearly was Jon's wetnurse at some stage by Edric's comment.
Robert (/Varys) could, for example, have received a report from Starfall, or a spy along the way, that Ned, his bastard, and his bastard's wetnurse/mother had headed north together (or separately for that matter). And after that asked Ned her name. Or he just heard that a woman and child were traveling with Ned and asked Ned about them ("thats my bastard son Jon and his wetnurse Wylla... I dishonoured Catelyn, its shameful, I don't want to talk about it").

Its even still possible that Ned told him outright that Jon's mother is Wylla. I just don't see any evidence supporting that in the text, and plenty against it.
 

[wolfmaid7]

Exactly.He implies (strongly) that he never saw her when he complains Ned never told him what she looked like.

We don't actually know if Robert knows she was the wetnurse or not. But she clearly was Jon's wetnurse at some stage by Edric's comment.
Robert (/Varys) could, for example, have received a report from Starfall, or a spy along the way, that Ned, his bastard, and his bastard's wetnurse/mother had headed north together (or separately for that matter). And after that asked Ned her name. Or he just heard that a woman and child were traveling with Ned and asked Ned about them ("thats my bastard son Jon and his wetnurse Wylla... I dishonoured Catelyn, its shameful, I don't want to talk about it").

Its even still possible that Ned told him outright that Jon's mother is Wylla. I just don't see any evidence supporting that in the text, and plenty against it.
 

With all the crap that was going on i think some answers  depends on "when" Robert heard about Ned's bastard and when this " you told me once" conversation took place.I agree it seems more natural and likely that someone must have told Robert about this.

I also agree that it is possible Ned told him outright,its just with every convo we have had with Ned being asked about Jon ad his mother a wall instantly goes up.You get nothing from him,but the only ambiguity is around how that talk with Robert went.

[Sly Wren]

 

He told the world (including her) he cheated on her. Thats practically the same thing at least with respect to her honour and the damage done to their relationship. 
A good man, like Ned, there's plenty enough betrayal in that to account for real emotion and sorrow over it.

Does that mean they must be ignored? Sly Wren inferred a question. I merely pointed out that there is a very clear and non-problematic answer/explanation right in front of us.

Not quite sure how I managed to get so far behind. . but, to dive back in. . 

I completely agree that a good man like Ned would feel sorrow and guilt over simply lying to Catelyn.

But in the conversation you quote above, Ned doesn't end the conversation with just "dishonored Cat." Robert keeps trying to let Ned off of the hook. And Ned keeps hoisting himself right back up there: 

QUOTE: "Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."

"You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed." He slapped a hand on his knee. "Well, I'll not press you if you feel so strong about it, though I swear, at times you're so prickly you ought to take the hedgehog as your sigil." Game, Eddard II

Ned keeps insisting that he's done something REALLY wrong in fathering Jon. And insists on STRONGLY implying that he broke his vows to Cat, dishonoring her. 

In other words, Ned's guilt could just be the lie. But he's keeping it REALLY tied to the traditional way "dishonoring" a wife would have been seen. He could let Robert just let him off of the hook and stop talking. He doesn't. Insists on painting his actions as inexcusable. My pet take on this is Ned's having had an affair with Ashara. . . but that's another subject.

Ned tells Cersei that he's made more mistakes than she can imagine. And, given that Ned got dead way too fast for my liking, we're likely not to know half of his secrets. But he does work hard in this conversation with Robert to paint his actions as wrong and dishonorable and breaking his marriage vows. It could be exactly what you assert. But, given his stridency, it could also be something more. . . 

[corbon]

Not quite sure how I managed to get so far behind. . but, to dive back in. . 

I completely agree that a good man like Ned would feel sorrow and guilt over simply lying to Catelyn.

But in the conversation you quote above, Ned doesn't end the conversation with just "dishonored Cat." Robert keeps trying to let Ned off of the hook. And Ned keeps hoisting himself right back up there: 

QUOTE: "Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."

"You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed." He slapped a hand on his knee. "Well, I'll not press you if you feel so strong about it, though I swear, at times you're so prickly you ought to take the hedgehog as your sigil." Game, Eddard II

Ned keeps insisting that he's done something REALLY wrong in fathering Jon. And insists on STRONGLY implying that he broke his vows to Cat, dishonoring her. 

In other words, Ned's guilt could just be the lie. But he's keeping it REALLY tied to the traditional way "dishonoring" a wife would have been seen. He could let Robert just let him off of the hook and stop talking.

Of course he does. Whether he is claiming Wylla as Jon;s mother or not, he clearly claims Jon as his own bastard, one way or another. And Jon is officially younger than Robb. So by definition Ned's story must be he cheated on Catelyn.

And he needs to emphasise the shame. That is the excuse he uses to shut down conversations about it.

 

He doesn't. Insists on painting his actions as inexcusable. My pet take on this is Ned's having had an affair with Ashara. . . but that's another subject.

It is, but it makes perfect sense that he paints his actions as inexcusable (by his own standards). Why do you need to add a take on that about something unrelated to the subject at hand and not even hinted at in conversation with Robert?

 

Ned tells Cersei that he's made more mistakes than she can imagine. And, given that Ned got dead way too fast for my liking, we're likely not to know half of his secrets. But he does work hard in this conversation with Robert to paint his actions as wrong and dishonorable and breaking his marriage vows. It could be exactly what you assert. But, given his stridency, it could also be something more. . . 

If something makes perfect sense internally, why invent an external reason?