The Heresy essays: X+Y=J Ned + Wylla

[bent branch]

For me the scene with Ned Dayne completely kills Wylla as Jon's mother. It is correct to say that we don't know when Wylla went to work for the Daynes, but it doesn't really matter. Either way the elder Daynes had to know it was a lie about Wylla being Jon's mother.  The reason for this is because there was literally only two ways the Daynes could have become aware of Wylla's participation in the matter. The first is Ned had Wylla and Jon with him when he arrived at Starfall to return the sword. The second is that Ned arrived at Starfall with only Jon and the Daynes provided Wylla as a wetnurse for Jon at that time.

In the second scenario, I don't think there is anyone who would argue that if the Daynes provided Wylla as a wetnurse for Jon when Ned arrived with him sans wetnurse, then the Daynes were fully aware Wylla was not Jon's mother.

However, in the first scenario it is equally unlikely to me that Wylla is Jon's mother. In the story Ned tells Ashara commits suicide after Ned arrives with Jon and his "mother" Wylla. Even if the Daynes are the nicest people in the world, I can't see them taking Wylla into their household after the suicide. If they were really nice they could have helped Ned find a place for Wylla, but it stretches credibility to the breaking point for me that they took Wylla into their own household after Ashara committed suicide. Therefore, I don't believe Wylla is Jon's mother and I don't think the Daynes thought Wylla was Jon's mother either.

First, its worth noting that although young Ned Dayne is Lord of Starfall, that does not mean that he is speaking 'House Knowledge' (for lack of a better term). He's a kid, and hes been away from Strfall since he was seven as Lord Beric's page then squire.His stated source for at least some of his information is 'my aunt Allyria'. Who has been betrothed to Lord Beric for 5 or 6 years, but still not married - which rather indicates she's very young, probably close to Ned's age, rather than old enough to have been around and cognizant of events more than 15 years ago.
So its entirely possibly that Edric is merely repeating local gossip he heard as a child, rather than official House Dayne knowledge held by senior members of the House (even though he's technically now the Lord).

So its not necessary that 'the Daynes' be complicit in any lie.

Secondly, its also entirely possible that the Daynes even the most senior, don't actually know anything. Even if Wylla was at ToJ, even if Arthur was responsible for finding her, heck even if Starfall was secretly providing logistical support to ToJ, its not a necessary requirement that Starfall knows anything about Wylla, or Jon's origins.
Instead, its still entirely possible that Starfall simply saw Wylla ride in with Ned, nursing Jon, and jumped to conclusions when Ned refuses to talk. After all, they know Ashara isn't the mother, so they lack any real candidate, making the wetnurse the oldest story in the book, especially for a man like Ned who honours his responsibilities.

I'm not saying that that the Daynes can't know, or even that its likely that they don't know. I'm just pointing out that we have no indication that they do know and thus no indication that they are 'complicit' in anything more than finding a gossipy story that works for them.

Oh, I see. I agree, he definitely hs someone in mind - Wylla, the name Ned told him once before. He clearly believes Wylla is Jon's mother. And yes, the mystery is how he came to that conclusion.The common postulation to that mystery is that Ned told him. I think that answer runs counter to the text and logic. I suggest a different postulation, that Robert came to that conclusion on his own, and the reason he knows the name is becaase he asked Ned about the wetnurse. As we saw, Ned has no reason not to be open about the wetnurse's name if asked directly, but he does shut the conversation down as quickly as possible.

As to why Robert would come to that conclusion?
If he hears Ned has a bastard with him, he's going to be curious. Not raging intense curious, he's got too much shit going down (newly crowned King, just married to Cersei, grieving Lyanna, restoring the realm, etc etc) for that, but curious non the less. He's going to wonder who the mother is, how did his mr-damned-perfect friend slip up?
I don't think the Ashara idea would fit for him. Its too big a slip up for Ned, knocking up an unmarried noblewoman (and one on the opposite side, from the deep south, to boot), if Ned had had a thing for Ashara previously I'm sure Robert would expect to have heard about it (her) before, and I think Robert would be aware how difficult it would be to hide a relationship with a noblewoman in an army encampment vs how easy to knock up a peasant girl and no one remember her with any significance etc etc etc. So Robert lacks any obvious candidate for the mother. But Ned is very much a man of the people, a man who cares for his troops, a man who makes sure they are looked after and their needs a re met, and Robert would know this well. So if Ned knocked up some peasant girl in a moment of weakness, he'd surely take responsibility for both the child and the mother. And the age old way of making sure the mother has is looked after, has enough to eat, a place to live, a wage, a livelihood etc, is to hire her as the wetnurse. Plus it means she gets to bond with her child in some way, even if her status can't be officially acknowledged because the Lord is actually married already.
So its a natural guess for Robert. What would Ned do to make things better if he knocked some peasant girl up?
So Robert asks Ned about the wetnurse. Ned has no reason not to give Robert her name. He doesn't want to be seen to be 'hiding' anything about the woman, because that moves her from 'a nobody' to 'a mysterious nobody' and invites more attention.
And then if Ned denies it, well thats just confirmation really. Because officially she's not the mother, that would be really dishonouring Catelyn.

Options:1. They aren't lying because its true (yeah, nah, that one fails on multiple levels, but its a possible reason why they'd say that.
2. They aren't lying, they genuinely believe that (see above), or its just their best gossipy story, they just happen to be wrong
3. The senior Daynes know better, but this information is merely castle gossip and the plebs and very junior Daynes don't know better
4. They (senior Daynes) know completely and were already complicit with ToJ. So their support is for keeping Jon Targaryen alive, and the best and only chance for that now is as Ned's bastard. And Wylla is the safest story for that.
5. They (senior Daynes) know R+L=J origins but not a lot more and their support is still for keeping Jon alive etc.
6. They know (or don't) Jon's origins but believe (f)Aegon is the heir (they believe Varys' claim to have spirited him away from KL and are helping Varys) so are content with Ned keeping Jon as his bastard for now.
7. Ashara is the mother but they are avoiding the dishonour to her (not for marriage, she just committed suicide, but for her good memory), but thats pretty weak even if you ignore the multidunious flaws in Ashara being the mother.

I'm sure there are more variations possible.
I think 1 and 7 are so weak as to be all but dismissable, but all of the others are solidly reasonable options

My variation on why the Daynes would willingly lie about Wylla being Jon's mother goes like this:

Aegon had been born on Dragonstone, but not yet presented to Aerys. When Aerys ordered Elia and the children to KL to serve as hostages, Elia had to bring Rhaenys with her since she had already been presented to Aerys. However, between the time Elia was ordered to present herself with her children before Aerys and the time she actually did so, Aegon had been exchanged for the Pisswater Prince. Ashara Dayne took Aegon with her to Starfall and had Aegon there at the time that Ned returned the sword.

The reason the Daynes lied about Wylla was because the only way that all parties involved could be kept safe was to tell the lie. This also explains why the Daynes have kept Wylla in their household for all these years. Wylla needed to be kept close because she of necessity knew far too much.

Of course, I am well aware many people are absolutely convinced Aegon is fake, so this answer will seem foolish to them. That's okay, because I think being convinced Aegon is fake is foolish.

[wolfmaid7]

 

However, in the first scenario it is equally unlikely to me that Wylla is Jon's mother. In the story Ned tells Ashara commits suicide after Ned arrives with Jon and his "mother" Wylla. Even if the Daynes are the nicest people in the world, I can't see them taking Wylla into their household after the suicide. If they were really nice they could have helped Ned find a place for Wylla, but it stretches credibility to the breaking point for me that they took Wylla into their own household after Ashara committed suicide. Therefore, I don't believe Wylla is Jon's mother and I don't think the Daynes thought Wylla was Jon's mother either.

 

Why would her suicide stop them from doing that though? They don't seem to have held a grudge against Ned at all.

[Sly Wren]

Of course he does. Whether he is claiming Wylla as Jon;s mother or not, he clearly claims Jon as his own bastard, one way or another. And Jon is officially younger than Robb. So by definition Ned's story must be he cheated on Catelyn.

And he needs to emphasise the shame. That is the excuse he uses to shut down conversations about it.

It is, but it makes perfect sense that he paints his actions as inexcusable (by his own standards). Why do you need to add a take on that about something unrelated to the subject at hand and not even hinted at in conversation with Robert?

If something makes perfect sense internally, why invent an external reason?

Not trying to invent anything--and you could absolutely be right. But when Ned wants to shut Robert down on other subjects, he often just stops talking. He could have done so here as well. Instead, he puts himself back on the hook for de facto cheating on Cat. Does so in front of a man who will NOT agree with his assessment of the situation instead of silencing Robert with his own silence--as he seems to do at other times. 

It might be nothing, as you say. Absolutely--but it's awfully vehement--for Ned. Who is not prone to vehemence.

[corbon]

For me the scene with Ned Dayne completely kills Wylla as Jon's mother. It is correct to say that we don't know when Wylla went to work for the Daynes, but it doesn't really matter. Either way the elder Daynes had to know it was a lie about Wylla being Jon's mother.  The reason for this is because there was literally only two ways the Daynes could have become aware of Wylla's participation in the matter. The first is Ned had Wylla and Jon with him when he arrived at Starfall to return the sword. The second is that Ned arrived at Starfall with only Jon and the Daynes provided Wylla as a wetnurse for Jon at that time.

In the second scenario, I don't think there is anyone who would argue that if the Daynes provided Wylla as a wetnurse for Jon when Ned arrived with him sans wetnurse, then the Daynes were fully aware Wylla was not Jon's mother.

Agreed.

However, in the first scenario it is equally unlikely to me that Wylla is Jon's mother. In the story Ned tells Ashara commits suicide after Ned arrives with Jon and his "mother" Wylla. Even if the Daynes are the nicest people in the world, I can't see them taking Wylla into their household after the suicide. If they were really nice they could have helped Ned find a place for Wylla, but it stretches credibility to the breaking point for me that they took Wylla into their own household after Ashara committed suicide. Therefore, I don't believe Wylla is Jon's mother and I don't think the Daynes thought Wylla was Jon's mother either.

First, Ned never mentions Ashara. Duh wrong Ned.  

First, Ned (Dayne)'s story is clearly all over the place. He claims Ned and Ashara were in love, but Ned was banging Wylla? The problem is he's just a young kid repeating another young kid's (his Aunt Allyria, who also appears to be young, since she'd been betrothed to mid-20s Lord Dondarrion for 6 years already but not yet married) gossip about stuff that happened before both of them were born.

Second, so you believe the suicide story then?
N+A story is a red herring, so she had no real reason to kill herself. No body was ever found. No witnesses. Just the words of people who weren't there...

 

Of course, I am well aware many people are absolutely convinced Aegon is fake, so this answer will seem foolish to them. That's okay, because I think being convinced Aegon is fake is foolish.

Well, I'm with you on that one!
Its a credible idea that he's fake, but its very very far from having any solid evidence behind it. Mostly its people refusing to accept trivially easy possibilities.

Why would her suicide stop them from doing that though? They don't seem to have held a grudge against Ned at all.

Indeed. There is no grudge.
Either they are in on something, in which case there's plenty of reasons to accept her, or they are not in on anything in which case there is no reason not to accept her. And the end result is that they have accepted her, so any theory (or theory branch) founded on the idea that the wouldn't do that is critically flawed before it even starts.

Not trying to invent anything--and you could absolutely be right. But when Ned wants to shut Robert down on other subjects, he often just stops talking. He could have done so here as well.

No he can't. He's clearly said the name at least one time before to Robert. If he stops now, avoiding the name again, he's clearly actively hiding something, which is the last thing he wants Robert to think. Currently Robert thinks Ned is not hiding anything, just avoiding the pain.

Instead, he puts himself back on the hook for de facto cheating on Cat. Does so in front of a man who will NOT agree with his assessment of the situation instead of silencing Robert with his own silence--as he seems to do at other times. 

It might be nothing, as you say. Absolutely--but it's awfully vehement--for Ned. Who is not prone to vehemence.

Ned is always vehement about shutting down talk about Jon's origins.

Ok, so there are effectively three times when the subject comes up and Ned addresses it (he ignores it entirely with Cersei, because its not really relevant to the conversation he is having with her, its just incidental insults).
Opportunity1 - Robert asks the name of the woman he thinks of as Ned's Bastard's mother
Response1 - Ned gives him the name (not for the first time) and makes a gentle effort to warn Robert off the subject.
O2 - Robert pushes Ned wondering what this sexy m-o-t-b looked like
R2 - Ned gets angry and shuts Robert down hard
O3 - Catelyn asks Ned about Jon's mother, mentioning Ashara Dayne.
R3 - Ned frightens her, cold as ice, and not only shuts down this conversation but also any more from her or anyone else in Winterfell.

Out of those three, one is slightly different. Only in the first does Ned give anything back at all, and is he 'gentle' with his shut down. The reason is because its still indirect and as he has never claimed Wylla was Jon's mother he has no reason not hide her name. But in none of the other cases does Ned allow even the slightest information ('he is my blood' doesn't count, thats obvious anyway) out, and in every other case he shuts the conversation down immediately, hard and angry.
The first Wylla case is different because its only nearing dangerous territory, and when it gets closer, we see him act differently.

If Ned ever claimed Wylla was the mother then he should have shut down Robert's first question immediately instead of being gentle and allowing it to move on before shutting it down.
And, he should have directed Catelyn to Wylla, if that was his story, before shutting that one down too.

He never ever acts consistent with having made the claim Wylla was Jon's mother.

[kimim]

I buy r+l=j, but unwillingly. I'd infinitely rather have Jon be the son of Ned+salty Dornishwoman, so this essay makes me happy. I like the fact that it begins with Ned's character. Ned is terrible at playing the game and lying, yet here's a situation where Ned's supposed to have spent fifteen years lying to everyone, including to people who know him well, like Robert, and the wonder of it is, they believe him.

If Lyanna were Jon's mother, then Ned would have good reason to lie. Having good reason, though, doesn't mean that he will succeed. That he succeeds is uncharacteristic, and weighs in favor of Ned's telling the truth about being Jon's father.

And then there are Jon's looks. He's slender, dark, with dark eyes and dark hair. His face shape might resemble Ned's, but otherwise, he looks like a salty Dornishman. In fact, Jon's appearance confused me about the "Stark look" for the longest time; until a reread, I assumed that the Stark appearance was slender, dark. Genetics are unpredictable, so it's possible that the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar might pop out looking like a salty Dornishman. The son of Ned and a salty Dornishwoman, though, would be way more likely to have that look.

lol I fear r+l=j. I'd love it if Ned&Willa were true, though. I'd love it better if Stannis is right, and if Ned fathered Jon upon a fishwife (of Dornish origins, of course). Hang the foreshadowing.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

About the passage Because the Hounorable Ned Stark says so

Everyone seems to be entirely convinced that Jon is indeed Ned’s son. So either Ned has hidden the truth so well that not even masters of secrets like Varys and Littlefinger could find it, or they never tried, or there’s nothing to find as Ned is indeed Jon’s father.

 

 I can't say anything about Varys, but LF was still a child when the rebellion ended, and not at all in any way close to Ned. Why would LF ever suspect, or try to investigate?

Had LF already been actively involved in the politics of Westeros when all of that went down, it would have been a completely different story..

 

The Starkest Stark
 

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.

 

It is repeatedly, and I mean repeatedly stated, that Jon looks incredibly like Ned. Qhorin, Cersei, Catelyn, Ned, Tyrion, Stannis and numerous others all say that Jon looks like Ned.
 

The ranger gave his horse into the care of one of his men and followed. “You are Jon Snow. You have your father’s look.” 
“Did you know him, my lord?” 
“I am no lordling. Only a brother of the Night’s Watch. I knew Lord Eddard, yes. And his father before him.”

 

“The brothers of the Night’s Watch have taken leave of their wits and chosen Ned Stark’s bastard son to be their Lord Commander.” 
“Snow, the boy is called,” Pycelle said unhelpfully. 
“I glimpsed him once at Winterfell,” the queen said, “though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father.”

 

Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him.

 

“Lord Eddard Stark is my father,” Jon admitted stiffly. 
Lannister studied his face. “Yes,” he said. “I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.”

 

Stannis snorted. "I know Janos Slynt. And I knew Ned Stark as well. Your father was no friend of mine, but only a fool would doubt his honor or his honesty. You have his look." 

 

Obviously the Starks have a recognizable family look, but this goes beyond that. People are saying he looks specifically like Ned, which is very important for judging if Ned is Jon’s father, as Ned looked different than Rickard, Brandon, Lyanna, and Benjen.
 

She remembered her own childish disappointment, the first time she had laid eyes on Eddard Stark. She had pictured him as a younger version of his brother Brandon, but that was wrong. Ned was shorter and plainer of face, and so somber.

 

“She was more beautiful than that,” the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna’s face, as if he could will her back to life.

 

His uncle was sharp-featured and gaunt as a mountain crag, but there was always a hint of laughter in his blue-grey eyes.

 

There were three tombs, side by side. Lord Rickard Stark, Ned’s father, had a long, stern face. The stonemason had known him well. He sat with quiet dignity, stone fingers holding tight to the sword across his lap, but in life all swords had failed him.

 

Catelyn notes that Ned wasn’t as handsome as his brother Brandon, Robert (and a few others) tell us that Lyanna was beautiful (and therefore not plain looking like Ned), Benjen was sharp-featured and gaunt, and Rickard had a long stern face. Ned therefore has a distinct look from his family and if Jon looks like Ned so much so that people comment on that fact so often, than we can reasonably conclude that he does not just look like a Stark in general. He looks like Ned, and not Brandon, Lyanna, Benjen, or Rickard. As we all know it’s of course possible to have children who look like their aunts and uncles more so than their own parents, so it’s possible for Jon to still look incredibly like Ned if Ned was his uncle instead of his father, but it’s far more likely that one would look like a specific family member if they were directly related to them. 

Which also ties into the fact that no one ever says that Jon looks like Brandon, Benjen, Lyanna, or Rickard. It’s only ever Ned who people say that Jon looks like in the Stark family tree. No one who ever knew the other Starks mention that Jon looks like any of them, which would be particularly odd if Jon was one of their children’s instead of Ned’s as he’d be more likely to look like them than Ned. There’s of course the fact that Arya and Jon apparently resemble each other as Arya has the Stark look, and Arya resembles Lyanna according to Ned so the argument might be there that Jon looks like Lyanna. But no, this is not true, because as noted above, Lyanna was noted to have been beautiful while Ned was plain looking. If Jon truly resembled Lyanna, he would be more handsome, and people would say that he looks like Brandon instead of Ned as Brandon was handsomer than Ned. Or they would simply say that Jon looks like Lyanna. But no, it’s always Ned that people say Jon looks like, even though many people knew the other Starks from Ned’s family and could say that Jon looked like one of them. They don’t, so Jon does not beyond the general Stark features. The resemblance between Arya and Jon is nothing more than the resemblance that they would have shared with any of Ned’s other children had they inherited the Stark look as well.
 

Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair.

 

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring.

 

Which means it’s far more likely that Jon is Ned’s son, than any other Stark. Jon’s looks point to Ned as his parent.

Jon’s looks also potentially help support Ned and Edric’s story that Wylla is Jon’s mother.
 

“The deserter died bravely,” Robb said. He was big and broad and growing every day, with his mother’s coloring, the fair skin, red-brown hair, and blue eyes of the Tullys of Riverrun. “He had courage, at the least.” 
“No,” Jon Snow said quietly. “It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark.” Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

 

Jon is noted to be “dark where Robb was fair” right after Robb was noted to have “fair skin”. This means that Jon has darker skin than Robb. As I pointed out already in this essay, we don’t actually know where Wylla is from, simply that she currently lives in Dorne. But if she lives in Dorne because she is Dornish, then the fact that Jon has dark skin supports the idea that Wylla is his mother as 2/3 Dornish have darker skin.
 

The salty Dornishmen were lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair streaming in the wind. The sandy Dornishmen were even darker, their faces burned brown by the hot Dornish sun. They wound long bright scarfs around their helms to ward off sunstroke. The stony Dornishmen were biggest and fairest, sons of the Andals and the First Men, brownhaired or blond, with faces that freckled or burned in the sun instead of browning.

 

Assuming Wylla is Dornish, as long as she’s not a stony Dornishwomen, then she would have darker skin. Thus if her and Ned were to have a baby, then this child would have darker skin due to its mother having dark skin. Jon has dark skin, so the signs point to a Dornish woman or Summer Isle woman as his mother, and if Wylla is indeed Dornish, then this is another clue that Ned is indeed not lying when he says that he fathered Jon.

Which fits with the fact that 5/7 characters (Ned, Robert, Cersei, Catelyn, Edric Dayne, Godric Borrell, and Tyrion) who comment on Jon’s parentage possibly think that Jon’s mother was Dornish. 
 

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.” 
“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like...”

 

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?” 
“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

 

Again, it’s unknown if Wylla is herself Dornish, but she does have a Dornish connection so it seems likely. But regardless, Ned, Robert, and Edric all say that Jon’s mother is Wylla. If she’s Dornish, then they’re saying that Jon has a Dornish mother.
 

The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

 

“Honor, “she spat. “How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You’ve a bastard of your own, I’ve seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?”

 

Catelyn and Cersei both think that Ashara Dayne is possibly Jon’s mother, and Ashara was Dornish, so they believe that Jon had a Dornish mother.
 

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

 

Tyrion decides that he cannot see past Jon’s Stark features (and more accurately Ned’s features as should have been noted, Tyrion is one of the many who notes that Jon looks liked Ned) to guess at who Jon’s mother was.
 

“At the dawn of Robert’s Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark’s head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

 

Godric Borrell believes that Jon’s mother was a woman from the Vale, but he has never seen Jon Snow before so he’s hardly reliable for discussing Jon’s features, nor does he ever mention them.

So, that makes 5 of 7 characters who guess at Jon’s mother thinking that she was Dornish. Therefore the majority of characters believe Jon to be of Dornish descent, and there must be a reason for this, otherwise they wouldn’t believe this. Jon therefore potentially has some Dornish features otherwise people wouldn’t believe that he had a Dornish mother. We see that he has dark skin which lends credence to the idea that his mother was Dornish as the Dornish have dark skin, and again, assuming that Wylla is indeed Dornish, then Ned’s story is all adding up to point to him and Wylla being Jon’s parents. Ned and a Dornish woman would make a child who looks like Jon does.

Next this essay will discuss the fact that Ned tells Catelyn that Jon is his blood, and not his son.

In response to the above quoted part:

 

Catelyn notes that Ned wasn’t as handsome as his brother Brandon, Robert (and a few others) tell us that Lyanna was beautiful (and therefore not plain looking like Ned), Benjen was sharp-featured and gaunt, and Rickard had a long stern face. Ned therefore has a distinct look from his family and if Jon looks like Ned so much so that people comment on that fact so often, than we can reasonably conclude that he does not just look like a Stark in general.

[...]

Which also ties into the fact that no one ever says that Jon looks like Brandon, Benjen, Lyanna, or Rickard.

It is important to remember who all comment on Jon's appearance. Do these people know Rickard, Brandon, or Lyanna? Cersei, Tyrion, and Stannis did not, so why would they compare Jon's appearance to anyone but Ned, the Stark they have actually met? As to Qhorin, who met Rickard as well as Ned once, he could have compared Jon to either, but he choose Ned, and I personally don't find this so odd.. Jon was born only after Rickard had died, and telling Jon "you look like your grandfather" would carry little to no meaning whatsoever, for either one of the two. 

But stuff like "more of the north in you than your brothers", or "looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him" only shows that Jon looks more like a Stark, any Stark, than Robb, Bran, or Rickon (and that that is the case, is, I hope, obvious).

Ned had the Stark look, and Jon has "his father's look", which means he also has the "Stark look" (but which doesn't mean that he looks only like Ned, or exactly like Ned). Yet that doesn't necessarily mean that Jon does not look at all like any other Stark.

 

 

There’s of course the fact that Arya and Jon apparently resemble each other as Arya has the Stark look, and Arya resembles Lyanna according to Ned so the argument might be there that Jon looks like Lyanna. But no, this is not true, because as noted above, Lyanna was noted to have been beautiful while Ned was plain looking. If Jon truly resembled Lyanna, he would be more handsome, and people would say that he looks like Brandon instead of Ned as Brandon was handsomer than Ned. 

The quote provided for this part already contradicts this bit.

 Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones. 

Jon has Ned's face? Thus Arya does too, as that is what she says here, herself. Yet, we also know that 

“Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”
“Lyanna was beautiful,” Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

So Jon has to resemble Ned, and Ned alone out of all the Starks because no one ever calls Jon handsome or pretty? I'd say that Arya here disproves that that is unnecessary. Because despite the fact that most people call Lyanna beautiful, and none called Arya such for most part of her life ("Lumpyhead", "Horseface"), she is still said to look like Lyanna, by a person who knew Lyanna very, very well. 

 

In regards to the "fair skin" vs "dark where Robb was fair" argument.. It is not specified whether "dark where Robb was fair" concerns Jon's skin or something else, and the quote

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

seems to imply Jon's skin is relatively the same in color as Ned's. You can, of course, have someone's look without having the exact same tone of skin colour (you can always have the same facial features, think ears, eyes, nose, etc.). But if Jon had inherited his tone of skin from his mother, I wouldn't call it "left little", would you?

 

Also, Edric and Robert might say that Wylla is Jon's mother, but Robert has never seen Wylla, and Edric has never seen Jon Snow, so neither can compare the two, and therefore, the fact that they name Wylla as Jon's mother means very little, in regards to comparing looks. 

And while Catelyn might not have met Ashara (as far as we know), she does seem to know what Ashara looks like. Which then should be an indication that Jon's tone of skin is either light (and thus, "dark where Robb is fair" is not a comparison of skin colour) or has not been inherited from his mother. After all, the description Catelyn knows about Ashara, is the following:

The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. 

Especially considering the fact that we know Ashara had dark hair, and thus, in her case at least, the mentioning of "fair" won't have been about her hair colour. Also considering that Ashara was a "stony Dornishwoman", and thus most likely to have had a light skin.

 

About the passage The Bastard Look

Unless I’ve missed a bastard (and I used the wiki’s Notable Bastard section and looked over every bastard there plus all the others I could think of), Jon’s father pretty much needs to have been a male Stark as GRRM has always made his described bastards take after some aspect of their father’s features and Jon’s features are all Stark. It’s of course possible that Jon is the sole described bastard who’s inherited no features from his father (and thus Lyanna must be his mother for him to look like a Stark), but that seems quite unlikely to me. GRRM has created “the bastard look” which seemingly always showcases the father’s features in some way in their bastard and Jon's features are all the same features that his father possesses.

Aegor Rivers had the hair of the Brackens, Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella look just as much like their father as their mother, and Daemon Blackfyre would have looked just as much as his father as his mother. Perhaps more like his mother than his father, considering what Aegon IV looked like towards the end of his life. And there most likely is a reason Daemon was compared to Aegon I, and not Aegon IV (in his youth).

 

But look at the bastard looks described here in this essay. The Sand Snakes (at least the elder four), Ramsay, and Bittersteel have only their eyes in common with their father's look... Implying that most, if not all of their looks, are inherited from their mothers. And in Edric Storm's case, the fact that there is something of his mother's looks to be seen with him as well (his ears), is clearly established.

 

In fact, the quotes provided here in this essay either draw attention to the colour of the eyes, or the colour of the hair. At least, that's the sense I get from reading all these quotes. Jon's hair is clearly Stark-like.. His eyes..? With eyes so very dark greyish to the point that they almost seem black, that might still be up for discussion.

 

About the passage The Silent Bond

 

Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. 
That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.

 

The interesting bit here is that Ned wouldn’t speak of who Jon’s mother was when he initially moved in with Catelyn. Not necessarily that he wouldn’t speak of her at all, or might not have spoken of her should anybody have asked him as the years passed. He only refused to answer the question then and there, and then seemingly never went out of his way to talk about it himself over the years.

 

I have to disagree. "Never ask me at all", is a clear indication that he does not want to talk about Jon's mother, whoever she is, and immediately makes it clear that, on no occasion in their marriage from that moment forth, Catelyn is to ask a single question about the matter.

So it's not a simple matter of 'refusing to answer the question then and there'

 

About the passage  The truth on the faces of the children

 

How could they have all been so blind? The truth was there in front of them all the time, written on the children's faces. Ned felt sick.

 

While many fans believe that Jon is in fact not the child of Ned, one has to then wonder how that assumption can ever stand in the face of the above quote. Ned is sickened to learn that Cersei has managed to pass off Jaime's children as Robert's. Yet if Jon isn't Ned's, then that is exactly what Ned himself did by passing off Lyanna/Benjen/Brandon/Rickard's child as his own all these years. He should be thinking about how he has done the same thing she did, but instead he's horrified that Cersei not only passed off Jaime’s children as Robert’s, but that she did it so successfully and that someone should have noticed. If Jon isn’t Ned’s, then Ned did the exact same thing, yet he feels nothing but horror to find out that someone could have done such a thing.

 

It is the difference in the situations that is important here. Ned hasn't been passing Jon off as a trueborn heir to his own seat (Winterfell), whereas Cersei has been passing off Joffrey as Robert's trueborn son, and the heir to the throne.

Whether Jon is truly Ned's bastard, or someone else's bastard whom Ned is pretending is his own, or someone else's trueborn son whom Ned is pretending is his own bastard, Ned has taken care to not place Jon in the line of succession for Winterfel.

Cersei has done the complete opposite, by placing Joffrey in the line of succession for the Iron Throne, despite the fact that he's a bastard who isn't related to Robert at all, and thus despite the fact that Joffrey has no true claim, looking only at the laws of inheritance.

 

About the passage Conclusions

 

Fifth, Jon Snow received a direwolf while every trueborn child of Ned and Catelyn’s did as well. Seeing as there is some evidence that there are other Stark bastards than just Jon, but none of them received direwolves seeing as the 6 pups and their mother are the first direwolves seen in 200 years, it seems likely that only Ned’s children received direwolves. Thus Jon is a son of Ned.

Have we seen any of those other bastards who 'might' be running around? Do we know whether they are still alive? No.

All we see are six children with clear direct Stark ancestry. And all six receive a direwolf. 

[Luddagain]

Agreed.

First, Ned never mentions Ashara. Duh wrong Ned.  

First, Ned (Dayne)'s story is clearly all over the place. He claims Ned and Ashara were in love, but Ned was banging Wylla? The problem is he's just a young kid repeating another young kid's (his Aunt Allyria, who also appears to be young, since she'd been betrothed to mid-20s Lord Dondarrion for 6 years already but not yet married) gossip about stuff that happened before both of them were born.

Second, so you believe the suicide story then?
N+A story is a red herring, so she had no real reason to kill herself. No body was ever found. No witnesses. Just the words of people who weren't there...

Well, I'm with you on that one!
Its a credible idea that he's fake, but its very very far from having any solid evidence behind it. Mostly its people refusing to accept trivially easy possibilities.

 

Indeed. There is no grudge.
Either they are in on something, in which case there's plenty of reasons to accept her, or they are not in on anything in which case there is no reason not to accept her. And the end result is that they have accepted her, so any theory (or theory branch) founded on the idea that the wouldn't do that is critically flawed before it even starts.

No he can't. He's clearly said the name at least one time before to Robert. If he stops now, avoiding the name again, he's clearly actively hiding something, which is the last thing he wants Robert to think. Currently Robert thinks Ned is not hiding anything, just avoiding the pain.

Ned is always vehement about shutting down talk about Jon's origins.

Ok, so there are effectively three times when the subject comes up and Ned addresses it (he ignores it entirely with Cersei, because its not really relevant to the conversation he is having with her, its just incidental insults).
Opportunity1 - Robert asks the name of the woman he thinks of as Ned's Bastard's mother
Response1 - Ned gives him the name (not for the first time) and makes a gentle effort to warn Robert off the subject.
O2 - Robert pushes Ned wondering what this sexy m-o-t-b looked like
R2 - Ned gets angry and shuts Robert down hard
O3 - Catelyn asks Ned about Jon's mother, mentioning Ashara Dayne.
R3 - Ned frightens her, cold as ice, and not only shuts down this conversation but also any more from her or anyone else in Winterfell.

Out of those three, one is slightly different. Only in the first does Ned give anything back at all, and is he 'gentle' with his shut down. The reason is because its still indirect and as he has never claimed Wylla was Jon's mother he has no reason not hide her name. But in none of the other cases does Ned allow even the slightest information ('he is my blood' doesn't count, thats obvious anyway) out, and in every other case he shuts the conversation down immediately, hard and angry.
The first Wylla case is different because its only nearing dangerous territory, and when it gets closer, we see him act differently.

If Ned ever claimed Wylla was the mother then he should have shut down Robert's first question immediately instead of being gentle and allowing it to move on before shutting it down.
And, he should have directed Catelyn to Wylla, if that was his story, before shutting that one down too.

He never ever acts consistent with having made the claim Wylla was Jon's mother.

Not quite sure how this interface works, so this is about the whole topic, not any specific post.

First point: I think there is evidence from Ned that he has sired a bastard - he sort of implies this, by his dishonoured "Catelyn in the eyes of man" (lies perhaps) "and GOD" which suggests reality. He also wonders why if bastards are so bad why does god give men lust.

Second point: However the term Wylla may be a Stark term for unnamed mother. Note LONNY Snow has a mother named Wylla.too 

Third point: The name Wylla suggests Manderly, ie the fisherman's daughter  may well be a girl from White Harbour. Or of course Wylla the wet nurse could be from White Harbour, perhaps a friend or maid to Lyanna who went with her.  But remember brave Wylla Manderly - she could be Ned's or perhaps her Aunt was Wylla Manderly.

However if Jon is the son of Ned and any girl why does Ned need to keep it secret. I can think of three reasons:

1. To protect the mother's honour - not a good reason. He could at least have told Catelyn and Jon himself. If the mother was Ashara, bastards are not such a big deal and we know she already had one bastard child.

2. One of the parents was someone whom Robert hated and this would threaten the life of the baby. Essentially this means father or mother is a Targaryan. Naturally this opens up R+L=J.  However what if it is much more complex. The mother is Rhaella plus Ned. After all non-one actually sees Raella for months except covered with a swollen face.  I think "Rhaella" was always Ashara which might explain why Dany looks like Ashara.  Rhaella, Lyanna and Rhaegar all at the ToJ. (A related possibility is that Dany is the child of Rhaella and Arthur Dayne conceived at ToJ - the age is right).

3. Ned actually married Jon's mother (whoever she was) but MARRIED twice. This was to protect Catleyn and the alliance and Stark honour.  I stongly suspect that Robb is not Ned's son, but rather the son of Brandon.

Look at it this way. We know that Brandon was keen to take virginity of girls and that Catelyn was keen on him.  A pre-wedding liasion seems quite likely. it is even possible that Brandon conferred some sort of "wedding" under a heart tree, which Catelyn may not have  understood, but still had meaning for the Old Gods. Brandon storms off and gets killed about a month later (time for Rickard to head South). Ned flees home and calls his banners . Some time between leaving the Eyrie and reaching the North he sleeps with and marries (via a weirwood tree) a girl of the North or someone still worshiping the old gods, (Dayne ??, Royce?). Ned gets to Riverrun to find Catelyn 2/3 months pregnant.  He has a dilemma. To save Stark honour AND the rebellion he marries again. There is NO reason to believe that polygamy is banned by the old gods, but in any case the second "wedding" may be via the Sept, which may not count for Ned's gods. Ned indeed may have been told that the "fisherman's daughter" had also died. In Ned's eyes Robb the son of Brandon is the rightful heir of Winterfell, so he has no reason to try to dislodge him from his place. Ned would not at this time be aware that Jon had been conceived.

So Ned eventually discovered the existence of Jon but could not tell Catelyn because of the threat to Robb's legitimacy. This also explains Catelyn's fear and hatred of Jon. She may in fact not fully accept that Robb is indeed Brandon's boy (If she was just 8-10 weeks pregnant she may suspect pregnancy but not have it confirmed -TO HER - she is young and it is a first pregnancy - she would not know the signs). Hoster Tully, may after the Lyssa issue have had female nurses/maids subtely check out Catelyn. They WOULD know the telltale signs of pregnacy which Catelyn may not. He would tell Ned only. Ned's reaction would determine if Cat was to suffer the same treatment as Lyssa.

 

 

 

 

[Lord Lannister]

I did want to say, I do enjoy the premise behind these posts. While I'm convinced of R+L=J, it has always been a hobby of mine to try and disprove it and this original post makes a case for it wonderfully. I'm looking forward to seeing the other subjects on the heresy essays.

To the subject of this one, honestly I think the best case that could be made for N+W=J is that it would be a huge subversion of expectations. GRRM says he hates the traditional fantasy tropes and the secret prince is high up there on that list.

[Sly Wren]

Ned is always vehement about shutting down talk about Jon's origins.

Ok, so there are effectively three times when the subject comes up and Ned addresses it (he ignores it entirely with Cersei, because its not really relevant to the conversation he is having with her, its just incidental insults).
Opportunity1 - Robert asks the name of the woman he thinks of as Ned's Bastard's mother
Response1 - Ned gives him the name (not for the first time) and makes a gentle effort to warn Robert off the subject.
O2 - Robert pushes Ned wondering what this sexy m-o-t-b looked like
R2 - Ned gets angry and shuts Robert down hard
O3 - Catelyn asks Ned about Jon's mother, mentioning Ashara Dayne.
R3 - Ned frightens her, cold as ice, and not only shuts down this conversation but also any more from her or anyone else in Winterfell.

Out of those three, one is slightly different. Only in the first does Ned give anything back at all, and is he 'gentle' with his shut down. The reason is because its still indirect and as he has never claimed Wylla was Jon's mother he has no reason not hide her name. But in none of the other cases does Ned allow even the slightest information ('he is my blood' doesn't count, thats obvious anyway) out, and in every other case he shuts the conversation down immediately, hard and angry.
The first Wylla case is different because its only nearing dangerous territory, and when it gets closer, we see him act differently.

If Ned ever claimed Wylla was the mother then he should have shut down Robert's first question immediately instead of being gentle and allowing it to move on before shutting it down.
And, he should have directed Catelyn to Wylla, if that was his story, before shutting that one down too.

He never ever acts consistent with having made the claim Wylla was Jon's mother.

Okay--I think I may have gotten us far afield of my actual point--which is very likely entirely my fault.

First up: my only point is that Ned's insistence on using the technique of stressing his failures and breaking his vows to Cat--that technique seems more intense than absolutely necessary. There might be some underlying guilt. Just a possibility.

Second: I'm not at all sold on Wylla as Jon's mother. If Ned's protests to Robert have an underlying truth, my guess (or mad flight of fancy, depending on perspective) would be that the guilt applies to Ashara.

Third: I think Ashara in part because of the occasion 3 you list above. Ned's reaction to Ashara's name--he's not just concerned about Jon and gossip. That reaction to HER name. That's intense.

Overall--you could ABSOLUTELY be right. And likely are. Only point: the option for Ned's having another sort of guilt--not just lying--seems to be on the table. At least for now. Just as a possibility.

[corbon]

 

Third: I think Ashara in part because of the occasion 3 you list above. Ned's reaction to Ashara's name--he's not just concerned about Jon and gossip. That reaction to HER name. That's intense.

Overall--you could ABSOLUTELY be right. And likely are. Only point: the option for Ned's having another sort of guilt--not just lying--seems to be on the table. At least for now. Just as a possibility.

Regarding the Ashara instance with Catelyn, thats worth examining, because you are making a very common mis-interpretation. You need to track back to the preceding paragraph for it to be completely clear.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother¹, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets^1.1, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it², asked him to his face.
That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon³," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where⁴ you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped⁵, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again⁶.

The subject is Jon Snows mother (1). Catelyn is wondering about the mother and gossip in the castle (1.1) suggests Ashara Dayne is a candidate.
Catelyn musters her courage and asks Ned the truth of it (2) (Jon Snow's mother, thats the subject), no doubt referencing Ashara Dayne in her question because thats the castle gossip.
Ned reacts instantly - to asking about Jon (3). His entire answer is directed to Jon's origins, not Ashara Dayne.
His next step though is to cut out all rumours because its clear Catelyn has been hearing rumours about Ashara from someone else. So he demands to know where she heard the name (4). Its not the name itself that concerns him, its the source of the rumours Catelyn has heard.
He shuts down the rumours completely (5) and Catelyn only thinks of Ashara's name never being heard again (6) because thats the connection in her head (unreliable narrator - not that she's wrong, but she's not seeing the complete picture). But its not the connection in Ned's head. I could bet you anything you like that no rumours about Jon's origin were ever heard in Winterfell again - he shut them all down, just like he shuts down Robert when Robert pushes him about Wylla.

So as you can see, if you pay attention closely, Ned does not react at all to Ashara's name, he's not even interested enough to say it himself. But he reacts fiercely, explicitly, to any questioning about Jon and shuts it all down completely.

[bent branch]

Why would her suicide stop them from doing that though? They don't seem to have held a grudge against Ned at all.

Pain. Even if the Daynes don't hold a grudge against Ned, it is a whole lot easier to forgive and forget when you don't have a reminder of what you lost and how right in front of you. So if the Daynes helped Ned find a placement for Jon's mother, that would be believable. Taking her into their own home, not so much.

Also, how did the Daynes get roped into helping Eddard in this fashion? How did that conversation go? Did he ask before or after he told them he killed Arthur? I may have a lack of imagination, but I can't see how Eddard would be in a position to ask a favor of the Daynes at that point. Even if they didn't hold a grudge.

Agreed.

First, Ned never mentions Ashara. Duh wrong Ned.  

First, Ned (Dayne)'s story is clearly all over the place. He claims Ned and Ashara were in love, but Ned was banging Wylla? The problem is he's just a young kid repeating another young kid's (his Aunt Allyria, who also appears to be young, since she'd been betrothed to mid-20s Lord Dondarrion for 6 years already but not yet married) gossip about stuff that happened before both of them were born.

Second, so you believe the suicide story then?
N+A story is a red herring, so she had no real reason to kill herself. No body was ever found. No witnesses. Just the words of people who weren't there...

Well, I'm with you on that one!
Its a credible idea that he's fake, but its very very far from having any solid evidence behind it. Mostly its people refusing to accept trivially easy possibilities.

I agree that Edric's  story doesn't hold water. It is one of the advantages of having a child give information in a story. That way the author can signal that something about this story isn't right without having the person telling the story look like a total idiot. Out of the mouths of babes and all that.

I don't believe Ashara committed suicide. I am convinced that she is Septa Lemore. However, if I am wrong (which has been rumored to happen on occasion ), then bringing the woman who pushed Ashara over the edge into suicide into their home is something I can't believe the Daynes would do.

[Sly Wren]

So as you can see, if you pay attention closely, Ned does not react at all to Ashara's name, he's not even interested enough to say it himself. But he reacts fiercely, explicitly, to any questioning about Jon and shuts it all down completely.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. Because while I agree the "shutting down of Cat" starts with "I am Jon's father and that's all you need to know," it doesn't shift to "I'll learn where you heard that tale, my lady" or "that story, my lady"--it shifts to "that name." The story, the gossip about Jon is a problem, no doubt. But so is the gossip about that name. Ashara's  name. That name counts, too.

Though the above is most likely immaterial to the OP.

[corbon]

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. Because while I agree the "shutting down of Cat" starts with "I am Jon's father and that's all you need to know,"

No it doesn't

It starts with "Never ask me about Jon". That's his care.

it doesn't shift to "I'll learn where you heard that tale, my lady" or "that story, my lady"--it shifts to "that name." The story, the gossip about Jon is a problem, no doubt. But so is the gossip about that name. Ashara's  name. That name counts, too.

Though the above is most likely immaterial to the OP.

Its clear from Catelyns thought path (she's thinking about Jon's mother, and the castle gossip says its Ashara Dayne) and Ned's reply (he slams at interest in Jon, but shows she spoke a specific name) that her question was directly about Jon's mother, and also directly included Ashara. Probably very very much like "Ned, was Jon's mother Ashara Dayne?".

So Ned wanting to hear where she heard 'that name', a name he himself has not spoken and whom she has never met, does not show concern about the name specifically, but about the gossip source in general. He's quite explicit about what she is not to ask about. You can't just ignore that.
But I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[wolfmaid7]

@ Bent Branch :Pain. Even if the Daynes don't hold a grudge against Ned, it is a whole lot easier to forgive and forget when you don't have a reminder of what you lost and how right in front of you. So if the Daynes helped Ned find a placement for Jon's mother, that would be believable. Taking her into their own home, not so much.Also, how did the Daynes get roped into helping Eddard in this fashion? How did that conversation go? Did he ask before or after he told them he killed Arthur? I may have a lack of imagination, but I can't see how Eddard would be in a position to ask a favor of the Daynes at that point. Even if they didn't hold a grudge."

I've been trying to figure out a way out of this messed up quoting function and just said frack it,i'll make do with "a lill somtin somtin"

To your post ,that's something that a lot of us might hold to thinking wise .Its not a problem in this story.Other more important things might trump having to live with an unpleasent reminder if that's the case with the Daynes(Ask Tywin about living with an unpleasent reminder).However,i don't think that's the situation going on at Starfall.To me them "helping" Ned find a placement isn't believable because its unneccessary.He could have done that himself.

So one could conclude its something and the Daynes have something to gain or a stake or interest.Or it they know nothing and they did Ned a solid because he brought back a major family heirloom.

 

 

 

[Sly Wren]

No it doesn't

It starts with "Never ask me about Jon". That's his care.

Its clear from Catelyns thought path (she's thinking about Jon's mother, and the castle gossip says its Ashara Dayne) and Ned's reply (he slams at interest in Jon, but shows she spoke a specific name) that her question was directly about Jon's mother, and also directly included Ashara. Probably very very much like "Ned, was Jon's mother Ashara Dayne?".

So Ned wanting to hear where she heard 'that name', a name he himself has not spoken and whom she has never met, does not show concern about the name specifically, but about the gossip source in general. He's quite explicit about what she is not to ask about. You can't just ignore that.
But I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Yes, indeed. All good. 

[bent branch]

I've been trying to figure out a way out of this messed up quoting function and just said frack it,i'll make do with "a lill somtin somtin"

To your post ,that's something that a lot of us might hold to thinking wise .Its not a problem in this story.Other more important things might trump having to live with an unpleasent reminder if that's the case with the Daynes(Ask Tywin about living with an unpleasent reminder).However,i don't think that's the situation going on at Starfall.To me them "helping" Ned find a placement isn't believable because its unneccessary.He could have done that himself.

So one could conclude its something and the Daynes have something to gain or a stake or interest.Or it they know nothing and they did Ned a solid because he brought back a major family heirloom.

 

 

 

You know I was going to let this pass, but I do have a valid point and I'm not sure why it is so hard to grasp. The order of events according to Edric's story is this:

1.  Eddard and Ashara meet and fall in love at Harrenhall.

2.  Ashara gives birth to Eddard's still born child.

3.  Eddard, the man that Ashara loves, marries Catelyn, giving her a child.

4.  Eddard meets Wylla and also has a living child with her.

5.  Eddard kills Ashara's brother.

6.  Eddard returns Arthur's sword and leaves the mother of his "love child" at Starfall.

7.  Ashara kills herself with grief.

This story makes some sense in that Ashara would have received several severe emotional blows, except for the fact that Ashara's family was unlikely to take in the mother of Eddard's "love child". When a member of your family is already weathering a series of emotional blows you don't intentionally bring in an element that can only cause more pain.

This is why I say that it is unlikely that Wylla entered into the service of the Daynes after arriving with Ned and Jon, unless the Daynes fully understood that she was nothing more than Jon's wetnurse. This brings us back to the original objection that I had to point in the essay that it made some difference if Wylla entered into the Dayne household before or after Jon's birth. Either way the Daynes would have provided a place for her only if they understood her to be nothing more than Jon's wetnurse.

[Luddagain]

If there is any child belonging to Ned and Ashara, I think it might be Ned Dayne.  Or of couse both Jon AND Ned.

Ashara fell pregnant to someone at Harrenhall and had a "stillborn" child, although I think in fact that child was Aegon and Elia's child died.

Roughly 18 months later Jon was born. This is not a short time between babies, indeed 15 months was quite common for the era.

Roughly three years later Edrik is borne. He seems to be 6 months or so older than Sansa. He could have been conceived in Dorne before Ned left, before uniting again with Catelyn back in Winterfell.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If there is any child belonging to Ned and Ashara, I think it might be Ned Dayne.  Or of couse both Jon AND Ned.

Ashara fell pregnant to someone at Harrenhall and had a "stillborn" child, although I think in fact that child was Aegon and Elia's child died.

Roughly 18 months later Jon was born. This is not a short time between babies, indeed 15 months was quite common for the era.

Roughly three years later Edrik is borne. He seems to be 6 months or so older than Sansa. He could have been conceived in Dorne before Ned left, before uniting again with Catelyn back in Winterfell.

You realise that Ned would have left Dorne towards the end of 283 AC, and Edric Dayne was not born until 287 AC, right? Much more than 9 months after Ned left for home.

[Melifeather]

Most readers suspect that Ned's story about Jon's parentage is a lie, so if Ned is really Jon's father and Wylla is not, who is the mother and why would Ned need to protect her identity? I haven't been convinced by any reasoning as to a logical reason why Ned would need to protect his bastard's mother's true identity if Ned is indeed the father. 

If Ned isn't Jon's father and Lyanna is Jon's mother, then surely Ned is protecting the identity of the father, because why should he protect Lyanna's identity as Jon's mother? It certainly would have made life easier for Ned and Jon to have Catelyn's acceptance of Lyanna's bastard child instead. So, why protect Lyanna as mother? Because once people know Lyanna is Jon's mother, everyone will assume Rhaegar is Jon's father. This is the traditional viewpoint of the reader, but it makes more sense to me that the reason Ned doesn't want people to know Lyanna is Jon's mother is because he doesn't want people to find out who isn't Jon's father. That would be a more upsetting fact, especially to Robert. If Rhaegar wasn't Jon's father, then the whole Rebellion was a sham, and the legitimacy of Robert's reign would be questioned.

[wolfmaid7]

You know I was going to let this pass, but I do have a valid point and I'm not sure why it is so hard to grasp. The order of events according to Edric's story is this:

1.  Eddard and Ashara meet and fall in love at Harrenhall.

2.  Ashara gives birth to Eddard's still born child.

3.  Eddard, the man that Ashara loves, marries Catelyn, giving her a child.

4.  Eddard meets Wylla and also has a living child with her.

5.  Eddard kills Ashara's brother.

6.  Eddard returns Arthur's sword and leaves the mother of his "love child" at Starfall.

7.  Ashara kills herself with grief.

This story makes some sense in that Ashara would have received several severe emotional blows, except for the fact that Ashara's family was unlikely to take in the mother of Eddard's "love child". When a member of your family is already weathering a series of emotional blows you don't intentionally bring in an element that can only cause more pain.

This is why I say that it is unlikely that Wylla entered into the service of the Daynes after arriving with Ned and Jon, unless the Daynes fully understood that she was nothing more than Jon's wetnurse. This brings us back to the original objection that I had to point in the essay that it made some difference if Wylla entered into the Dayne household before or after Jon's birth. Either way the Daynes would have provided a place for her only if they understood her to be nothing more than Jon's wetnurse.

Bent Branch i'm not saying you don't have a valid point,i do achknowledge it and i do grasp what your saying.My problem with what your saying comes down to

1.Ashara's feelings weighed against what's best for a house that was enemy to the new Dynasty means zilch.This to me is the main reason,it just doesn't work like that in this world.What's good for your house outweighs any singular pain.

2.Wylla has a purpose a big ass purpose probably one of the most important ones a common woman would play. And i will say you are right and the Daynes understand she is just a wet nurse.Given Ned's no fly zone on Jon's mom topic i don't see him giving that info up at all.

Ok let me explain in totall what i mean.

3.“He is my milk brother. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”

 

“Edric is stretching the term a little... "Milk brothers" more usually refers to two infants of different parents who were nursed simultaneously by the same woman, but Jon had long been parted from Wylla's breasts by the time Ned (Edric) came along. GRRM” 

I think GRRM is giving us a little hint here he knows what milk brothers are he has used it correctly with Monster and Aemon Steelsong.He intentionally wrote Edric to stretch the term,that was a clue.What was formed using Wylla was a "Milk kinship" GRRM basing this on a certain era  knows the importance of "Milk kinship" politically.It is a way to foster alligence between two parties.So one way or the other Wylla's shared breast IMO linked the Daynes and maybe House Stark via Jon.....

They are brothers connected by the same breast,the same milk.