US Politics -- Where Candidates Fall like Leaves

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Or at least we hope so

 

I am surprised I can restart this thread.  I was sure someone would have done it already.

 

Anyway, I missed the first debate last night, but watched the second one.

My opinion was that that Rubio was the winner and it looked like some of the commentators agreed with that assessment.

Donald was totally boring for once and I bet it hurts him.

Dr. Carson has no depth to anything he says and his flat tax is the worst possible. (hurts the poor, benefits the rich and seriously increases the debt).

 

And they all seem to want to do away with the EPA which is truly insane since the environment is the most important long term issue we have.  We destroy the earth and we destroy ourselves.

 

Anyway, please continue

 

[Paladin of Ice]

I originally posted this in the old thread that was up, because I thought it might continue to be used, so if it's ok I'll also cross post it here.

A few "highlights" from the debate included:

Trump, who's been decrying free trade for forever and who has said that he wants to slap a 20% tariff on imports proclaiming that he now loves free trade, he's backing Putin's intervention in Syria because anyone that attacks ISIS is ok by him, (even thought the Russians are largely ignoring ISIS) and claiming he knows Putin well because they both appeared by satellite on 60 Minutes one time, so basically a redux of "I looked into his eyes and saw he was a good man." Meanwhile Cruz claimed that he wants to eliminate 5 government agencies and was only able to name 4 of them, (Ricky Perry says hi and wants to commiserate about how hard counting is) Rand Paul and JEB tried to do fact checking when the moderators essentially refused to do so, and Chris Christie said back to back that the Fed is artificially keeping the economy afloat to save Obama's approval rating and that the Fed policies are harming the economy. (Come on Chris, pick a side and stick with it.)

Also interesting was Rubio and Paul squabbling over defense spending, (with Paul rightly pointing out that you can't spend an extra trillion dollars without raising taxes, only for Rubio and the audience to brush that aside and ignore it, showing off the split between the isolationist Republicans and Neo-Con interventionists) and I'll give some small amount of credit to Carson for one thing: despite being a total non-entity in this debate as in the others, he did mention and bring attention to the wave (and yes, there's no other way to describe it) of opiate overdoses and deaths resulting from both heroin's comeback in popularity and overuse/addiction to legal pain meds. As someone changing careers and getting into the field of medicine and who has dealt with a few people addicted to their pain meds, I'm glad to see that getting more attention and becoming more visible. Otherwise of course Carson was horrible, and his beliefs and policies are horrible, but never look a gift horse in the mouth and all that.

[Hayyoth]

Rubio continues to get softball questions. Yeah let's ask Trump about the TPP/amnesty and definitely not Marco coz these are in no way problematic issues for him. JEB! was his usual low energy self, I can't even bring myself to hate him anymore, I feel the stirrings of...pity? No can't be. Someone needs to take that dude to the back of the woodshed and put him out of his misery. The love media are telling me his performance was 'steady' which I guess means he didn't get his head blown off like last time. Carson was good in this debate, best I've seen him (OK not saying much) the past week has helped him massively. Fiorina/Paul did fine but they're on their way out. And then there was Kasich who thought telling the GOP base that bank bailouts and amnesty are two things they should be in favor of...he's the Jim Webb of the Republican Party.

[Mexal]

Thought the debate was terrible again but I think that's just the nature of debates. Candidates get asked a question. They refuse to answer the question and instead go on a tirade about whatever talking points they can throw out there. Also feels like a lot of canned answers we've heard at each of the debates (for example, what Fiorina would do against Russia which is the same exact answer, which is still wrong, that she gave in the first debate said in the exact same way or Rubio and his philosophers and welders). 

There were a few good moments though, some of which won't matter. Kasich pointing out the idiocy of trying to deport 11 million people. Paul pointing out to Rubio that spending another trillion dollars that you're unable to pay for on defense is ridiculous. Couldn't stand Rubio's answer even though I know it'll play very well to the Republican base (all these things happening in other places around the world so we're not safe even though we have the biggest military and most spending by far). Enjoyed Paul pointing out to Trump that China wasn't part of the TPP and that his entire tirade on currency manipulation had nothing to do with the trade deal. Fiorina pointing out to Trump that she knows Putin from a private meeting, not a green screen room cracked me up given she described knowing Putin from a green screen room in the past.

Maybe I'm dense, but I have zero clue how Trump or Carson appeals to voters. They don't know anything. Once you get them to talk about policy, they're woefully ignorant. How can anyone watch them talk and expect them to actually accomplish anything? And how can anyone watch them talk and want them to have access to nuclear codes?

[Wise Fool]

Trump and Carson's ignorance appeals to ignorant people.

[lokisnow]

I tuned in for about ten minutes when I got home from work.  Apparently John Kasich is not aware of the FDIC, and nor are the debate moderators or other candidates.  The breathtaking stupidity and ignorance on display made me turn the thing off and watch Jeopardy tournament of champions instead.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

By far the most amusing summary of last night's debates that I've read today. Some highlights:

 

Jeb Bush

Substance: F

At one point, started an anecdote, then stopped it, then tried to start it again and wound up saying, “Uh, anyway.” This is the epitaph of the Bush campaign.

Overall: Off-brand diet cola.

 

Mike Huckabee

Overall: The tears of a child on Christmas, a child who sent their allowance to the long-shot campaign of a former governor of a far-away state and now worries that gay Muslims will never stop saying “happy holidays” at Starbucks.

 

 

Chris Christie

 

Substance: C-

Mostly, Christie gamely tried to take advantage of an old Republican urban legend that says if you glower at the camera and say “Hillary Clinton” three times in a row while denouncing taxes, the ghost of Lee Atwater will appear and save your campaign.

 

Bobby Jindal

Style: C+

With his Brylcreemed hair, Indian Howdy Doody came to the fight with all the great insults people once threw at him. Right now, he’s back at his hotel room, staring at the ceiling, wondering why that juice box line didn’t crush Christie the way it once crushed him.

 

 

[Spring Bass]

Rubio looked okay, although not remarkable. It's a little weird to see the media latch on to him so quickly, although they may be right that he's the most likely candidate to be left standing if or when Trump and Carson implode. Personally, I just can't imagine him winning against Hillary even with much more financial support from the billionaire crowd.

It's depressing to think about what the situation will be like circa 2017. I'll be happy if Clinton (or Sanders) wins and mostly likely secures the Presidency for the Democrats until 2024 (re-election is very likely), but we'll still probably have a Republican dominated House and divided Congress even if the Democrats retake the Senate. It'll just be business as usual, with the new President trying to push the boundaries on what she or he can do with Executive Orders.

[ThinkerX]

Trump denouncing a minimum wage hike says a lot.

What got me was the comments to some articles on the minimum wage protests I read yesterday. 

1 - Most of the posters were conservatives.

2 - Many of those posters lamented about how many professions now seem to be stuck in the $15/hour range, and how big of a pain it is to live on such a wage.

3 - Despite this, they were uniformly adamant that fast food workers and other minimum wage types deserved no pay hike what-so-ever.  Those were 'starter jobs,' those people should go out and find something better - despite point 2.

To me, it looks like they really want an underclass they can demonize for the nations problems. 

[Ramsay Gimp]

Trump and Paul had the only rationale answers regarding Syria

Fiorina is a disgusting warmonger but every woman I've spoken with thinks she's awesome 

[Ramsay Gimp]

(even thought the Russians are largely ignoring ISIS) 

Does anyone have a source for this other than the U.S. government? Of course they would say that, doesn't make it true

[Swordfish]

Trump denouncing a minimum wage hike says a lot.

What got me was the comments to some articles on the minimum wage protests I read yesterday. 

1 - Most of the posters were conservatives.

2 - Many of those posters lamented about how many professions now seem to be stuck in the $15/hour range, and how big of a pain it is to live on such a wage.

3 - Despite this, they were uniformly adamant that fast food workers and other minimum wage types deserved no pay hike what-so-ever.  Those were 'starter jobs,' those people should go out and find something better - despite point 2.

To me, it looks like they really want an underclass they can demonize for the nations problems. 

yes.  because they are all evil super villains, just like in the comics.

[Ormond]

yes.  because they are all evil super villains, just like in the comics.

Uh, whether or not ThinkerX is correct in his estimation on that particular issue at this moment, unfortunately history shows one does not have to be a comic book villain to want to "demonize" someone else for your problems. That is quite a common human phenomenon, much to our species' sorrow. 

[ThinkerX]

yes.  because they are all evil super villains, just like in the comics.

yes.  because they are all evil super villains, just like in the comics.

 Touchy quote feature here.

I don't see how you get 'super villains' out of my post. 

To me, it seems like a not-so-disguised effort to bring back the southern (Confederate) caste or class system: Most or all offices held by a tiny elite, along with most of the wealth; then a sort of 'favored skilled group or class,' and then below them a sort of underclass, the equivalent of slaves or blacks, for the 'favored skill minions' to feel superior to.   

I say this because it was the 'ordinary conservatives' saying again and again that minimum wage people did not deserve a raise, while AT THE SAME TIME bitterly lamenting about the dearth of jobs paying more than $15 an hour or rough equivalent, and how much of a pain living on that wage was.  The comments about the minimum wage types were uniformly derogatory, directed towards lifestyle and work ethics, with the implication these people were undeserving inferiors.

[Swordfish]

 

 

 Touchy quote feature here.

I don't see how you get 'super villains' out of my post. 

To me, it seems like a not-so-disguised effort to bring back the southern (Confederate) caste or class system: Most or all offices held by a tiny elite, along with most of the wealth; then a sort of 'favored skilled group or class,' and then below them a sort of underclass, the equivalent of slaves or blacks, for the 'favored skill minions' to feel superior to.   

I say this because it was the 'ordinary conservatives' saying again and again that minimum wage people did not deserve a raise, while AT THE SAME TIME bitterly lamenting about the dearth of jobs paying more than $15 an hour or rough equivalent, and how much of a pain living on that wage was.  The comments about the minimum wage types were uniformly derogatory, directed towards lifestyle and work ethics, with the implication these people were undeserving inferiors.

 

I think there is a tendency to ascribe evil intent, where simple greed, pandering for votes, or even rational economic considerations are the more likely explanations.

If you honestly believe there is some evil master plan to explicitly implement an a caste system, and then to somehow diabolically cover it up,  to me that's 'super villain' stuff.  Pure conspiracy theory, and it gives them more credit than they deserve in terms of their ability to come up with and execute some sort of super secret evil master plan to subjugate  vast numbers of people for their own devious ends....

 

 

 

 

 

[ThinkerX]

I think there is a tendency to ascribe evil intent, where simple greed, pandering for votes, or even rational economic considerations are the more likely explanations.

If you honestly believe there is some evil master plan to explicitly implement an a caste system, and then to somehow diabolically cover it up,  to me that's 'super villain' stuff.  Pure conspiracy theory, and it gives them more credit than they deserve in terms of their ability to come up with and execute some sort of super secret evil master plan to subjugate  vast numbers of people for their own devious ends....

 

 

 

 

 

No.  No 'evil master plan' and then 'cover it up.'

Just a lot of people who view a lot of other people with contempt. Have you actually bothered to read through several hundred of these comments? I have.  I am pointing out things I have noticed repeatedly in these comments.  Taken collectively, you have 'middle class conservatives' for want of a better term blaming poor people influenced by 'libtards' and 'dumbocrats' for the dire situation they find themselves in. 

[Swordfish]

No.  No 'evil master plan' and then 'cover it up.'

Just a lot of people who view a lot of other people with contempt. Have you actually bothered to read through several hundred of these comments? I have.  I am pointing out things I have noticed repeatedly in these comments.  Taken collectively, you have 'middle class conservatives' for want of a better term blaming poor people influenced by 'libtards' and 'dumbocrats' for the dire situation they find themselves in. 

 

There's plenty of rhetoric and hyperbole involved in political discussions, particularly online.

Your wholly random, anecdotal method method here is ripe for landing directly in the lap of your confirmation bias.

 

[Wise Fool]

It's true. People do enjoy feeling superior to minimum wage workers, and people who make less money or display less wealth, in general. This sense of contempt, or at the very least apathy, for the poor or needy is what's referred to in Ezekiel as the sin of Sodom. This doesn't mean people indulging in some "poor people should stop being so lazy and entitled" type thinking have an evil intent. It just means they are evil.

[aceluby]

Why are we ignoring the fact that this wouldn't just impact minimum wage workers?  This would also have huge impacts on some skill positions as well that make in the $10-14 range.  These are assistant managers, managers, cooks, machine workers, skilled warehouse positions, janitors, roofers, painters, etc, etc, etc....  In some areas high school students are having a tough time finding jobs because they are taken by people who can't work anywhere else.  I just don't get this mentality of 'I have mine, fuck everyone else'.

[Swordfish]

It's true. People do enjoy feeling superior to minimum wage workers, and people who make less money or display less wealth, in general. This sense of contempt, or at the very least apathy, for the poor or needy is what's referred to in Ezekiel as the sin of Sodom. This doesn't mean people indulging in some "poor people should stop being so lazy and entitled" type thinking have an evil intent. It just means they are evil.

This seems like an obvious place where the application of Hanlon's razor is called for.

but I realize you get no outrage points for that, so....