US Politics -- Where Candidates Fall like Leaves

[Ramsay Gimp]

He has ideas

[TerraPrime]

Yup. They're baffled someone being openly racist and bigoted is winning the Republican primary. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

Speaking for myself, it's not *just* the transparent racism of Trump that makes me cringe, though that's enough as it is. Rather, what actually annoys me more is the utter lack of reasonable ideas on policy issues. I think one can be racist against Mexicans and still propose a set of immigration policy that doesn't involve billions of dollars spent to build a literal wall along the border. That's utterly insane, as an idea to regulate immigration. 

[Ramsay Gimp]

Speaking for myself, it's not *just* the transparent racism of Trump that makes me cringe, though that's enough as it is. Rather, what actually annoys me more is the utter lack of reasonable ideas on policy issues. I think one can be racist against Mexicans and still propose a set of immigration policy that doesn't involve billions of dollars spent to build a literal wall along the border. That's utterly insane, as an idea to regulate immigration. 

When money is spent to secure the border you suddenly become a fiscal conservative   

Any policy proposal aimed at reducing immigration would make you guys cringe. That's the real issue here, not the "billions of dollars" supposedly being wasted

[Fez]

Yup. They're baffled someone being openly racist and bigoted is winning the Republican primary. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

They are stuck in the fantasy that politics is some sort of noble profession that has rules and codes of conduct. That certain things just aren't done and that the old ways of doing things will always triumph in the end.

They're wrong. Politics is a bloody mess where anything goes and whatever rules used to exist don't apply anymore. And they all dismiss Trump's chances because 1) he is so open about flaunting this fact that it shatters beyond repair their delusions about politics and 2) his continued success proves just how wrong they were about him (e.g., its beyond absurd that the Huffington Post continues to insist that Trump news be labeled 'Entertainment' instead of 'Politics').

[TerraPrime]

When money is spent to secure the border you suddenly become a fiscal conservative   

Any policy proposal aimed at reducing immigration would make you guys cringe. That's the real issue here, not the "billions of dollars" supposedly being wasted

Uhhhh... no.

If you spend a billion on installing compliance officers to check businesses that frequently utilize undocumented workers, and another billion to set up the infrastructure to speedily examine the cases and prosecute the businesses, I would support it. It's not the dollar amount, but the ineffectual outcome of that money being spent to build a fucking wall. I know it's fun to characterize leftists as money-wasting idealists and all, but you're wrong here on why I object to this idea. If the wall only costs 1 million dollars, I would still oppose it because it's a stupid idea.

[TrackerNeil]

 

Uhhhh... no.

If you spend a billion on installing compliance officers to check businesses that frequently utilize undocumented workers, and another billion to set up the infrastructure to speedily examine the cases and prosecute the businesses, I would support it. It's not the dollar amount, but the ineffectual outcome of that money being spent to build a fucking wall. I know it's fun to characterize leftists as money-wasting idealists and all, but you're wrong here on why I object to this idea. If the wall only costs 1 million dollars, I would still oppose it because it's a stupid idea.

Word. 

[Ramsay Gimp]

Ok, fair enough. But the effectiveness and cost of such a program is hardly certain. And hasn't Trump proposed several new internal programs aimed at catching illegal immigrants as well?

Whether or not the wall would work is less important than the fact that immigration is now a major GOP issue thanks to Trump. So his bombast and grandiose plans may make you cringe, but it's forcing the other candidates to clarify their positions. Anything that forces politicians to address pressing issues they'd rather avoid talking about is a good thing

[DanteGabriel]

Whether or not the wall would work is less important than the fact that immigration is now a major GOP issue thanks to Trump. So his bombast and grandiose plans may make you cringe, but it's forcing the other candidates to clarify their positions. Anything that forces politicians to address pressing issues they'd rather avoid talking about is a good thing

It's cute that you think Trump's presence forces people to "clarify their positions." Like we are actually talking about substantive policy proposals. It's mostly just making them compete to out-xenophobe each other. How many GOP candidates want to build a wall? How many want to round up 11 million people and deport them? What sparkling clarification!

[Wise Fool]

Trump is the decider. Like Putin. He has the big muscles. A man of actions, not sissy words. An alpha male. A hero to men's rights activists, pickup artists, and in general, the Angry White Males of America. So what if he has strong opinions? He's got lots of money, he made it all himself cuz he's a hard worker. His wealth shows just how successful a leader he is. He's a decider! When he becomes fuhrer there will be many changes and liberals are gonna be sorry they elected that gay atheist muslim Obama cuz they're gonna get it back tenfold!

Make America Great Again!

That is why he is popular. He says the things so many people have been afraid to because they are racist, stupid, hateful, violent, rash, ignorant, anti-intellectual, destructive, and divisive things. But because he says it, and with the confidence of a true believer, and with all that money, how can the Joe the Plumbers and lolbertarians of the country NOT grow faint at the heady thrill of suppressed urges rising joyously within them?.

[Shryke]

He is the Id of the Republican party.

 

And that's why they have so much trouble fighting him. He says something insane and the media tries to hit him with it and he just hits back with "The media are a bunch of filthy leftist liars" and a good chunk of the GOP base is even more behind him because he's both saying the shit they think and buying into their "liberal media" persecution narrative.

[Bonesy]

There is a small part of me still thinks, needs to think, that Trump is trolling us all.

[Ramsay Gimp]

It's cute that you think Trump's presence forces people to "clarify their positions." Like we are actually talking about substantive policy proposals. It's mostly just making them compete to out-xenophobe each other. How many GOP candidates want to build a wall? How many want to round up 11 million people and deport them? What sparkling clarification!

It's cute that you snark about substance when your post has no substance at all.

Only someone who hasn't followed the race at all would deny that Trump has made immigration a major issue. His popularity (which is mostly due to his immigration stance) has forced the other candidates to respond, and elaborate on their own immigration philosophy/proposals. Kinda like how Terraprime outlined what he'd like to see done about illegal immigration, in this very thread. 

Trump is the decider. Like Putin. He has the big muscles. A man of actions, not sissy words. An alpha male. A hero to men's rights activists, pickup artists, and in general, the Angry White Males of America. So what if he has strong opinions? He's got lots of money, he made it all himself cuz he's a hard worker. His wealth shows just how successful a leader he is. He's a decider! When he becomes fuhrer there will be many changes and liberals are gonna be sorry they elected that gay atheist muslim Obama cuz they're gonna get it back tenfold!

Make America Great Again!

That is why he is popular. He says the things so many people have been afraid to because they are racist, stupid, hateful, violent, rash, ignorant, anti-intellectual, destructive, and divisive things. But because he says it, and with the confidence of a true believer, and with all that money, how can the Joe the Plumbers and lolbertarians of the country NOT grow faint at the heady thrill of suppressed urges rising joyously within them?.

Posts like this are enough to make me consider voting for him. 

[Ramsay Gimp]

 

He is the Id of the Republican party.

 

And that's why they have so much trouble fighting him. He says something insane and the media tries to hit him with it and he just hits back with "The media are a bunch of filthy leftist liars" and a good chunk of the GOP base is even more behind him because he's both saying the shit they think and buying into their "liberal media" persecution narrative.

His willingness to cruelly mock people and say provocative/offensive things without apology is also like catnip to his supporters, even if they may not admit it. He pisses off the right people, which is refreshing to someone nauseated by PC culture.  The people who are outraged by his comments would probably never vote for Donald Trump anyway

 

[TrackerNeil]

Whether or not the wall would work is less important than the fact that immigration is now a major GOP issue thanks to Trump. So his bombast and grandiose plans may make you cringe, but it's forcing the other candidates to clarify their positions. Anything that forces politicians to address pressing issues they'd rather avoid talking about is a good thing

Oh, there we agree--and it's great. Every time Trump says something foolish, all of the other Republicans are then asked to comment, and we get to watch them do their little dance. They can't exactly disavow what Trumps says--much of their base agrees with him--but they don't want to agree openly or else Clinton will hammer them with it in the general. I am loving it.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Oh, there we agree--and it's great. Every time Trump says something foolish, all of the other Republicans are then asked to comment, and we get to watch them do their little dance. They can't exactly disavow what Trumps says--much of their base agrees with him--but they don't want to agree openly or else Clinton will hammer them with it in the general. I am loving it.

Exactly. Everyone wins except the GOP establishment

[TerraPrime]

The other problem with the current slew of front-runners in the GOP primary - Trump, Carson, Cruz, and to a lesser extent some of the other minor candidates, like Fiorina and Huckerbee, are also doing something else to the political climate that I find very distasteful - they are cultivating a culture of wanton lying, fanning the ugly sentiments of xenophobia and racism, and riding on those responses for political gains. For some of them, that's what they sincerely believe in. For others, it's probably a calculated move. Either way, it is appealing to the most ugly segments of their base.

Do those voters exist? Of course they do. They always will. The difference is that now they have candidates that speak their language and who champion their views, and this elevates such types of views to a validated status. Regardless of one's opinion on immigration policies towards Mexico, I think we should be able to agree that saying most Mexican are rapists is fucking out of line, and should be punished by voter reactions. Imagine if Clinton came out and say "men are rapists" - the right-wing will explode and many of her current supporters will leave her. She will not gain a new wave of supporters surpassing in number those who leave her in the form of men-hating women.

Or we can look at Fiorina's support of the fabricated video on Planned Parenthood. We have in this very own forum people who clearly stated that they are mostly convinced that PP are selling body parts for profit, except they couch it in the language of "we need a thorough auditing down to the last cent" (paraphrasing). Typically, these types of people won't have the channels on a national level to unleash those inane and fact-free musings. But with the current crop of candidates, not only are these thoughts given a voice, but they are given importance in controlling the polls.

If Trump were a fringe candidate like The Rent Is Too Damn High guy, then we can all sit back and laugh. The fact that he's capturing polling leads and garnering supporters, however, paints a very different picture.

I am capable of respecting political differences. I, for instance, don't think the likes of Bob Dole and Arlen Specter are harmful blights on the political landscape of the U.S. even if I disagree with most of their policies. I can even respect people like McCain, who is a hypocrite and a liar play-acting the role of a maverick. But people like Bachmann, Palin, Trump, Carson, Cruz, and others in that same mold, are not only divergent from me on political views, but also severely lacking in basic human decency and ethics.

I feel sorry for the conservatives and the Republicans who are represented by this group of clowns. I also feel sorry for the overall tenor of our political process, which is being lowered and mangled by the indiscriminate spewings of hateful, fact-free, and vile ugliness. The people of America, regardless of their political leaning, deserve to be represented by people who are not proud of their racism and their xenophobia. We should expect, and demand, more and better from our politicians. I am angry at the sane, non-racist conservatives for not being strong enough to take control of their own party and movement, and saddling the rest of us with this collective pile of human rejects grotesquely mimicking functional politicians.

[Ramsay Gimp]

 Obviously Carson is a total liar and fraud, but how is he (or Cruz, for that matter) a xenophobe and racist?

[Kalbear]

 Obviously Carson is a total liar and fraud, but how is he (or Cruz, for that matter) a xenophobe and racist?

Wasn't Carson the one that basically said he supported a Muslim litmus test for the president? That would fit the bill.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Wasn't Carson the one that basically said he supported a Muslim litmus test for the president? That would fit the bill.

No, actually. Carson said that he probably wouldn't want a Muslim president, and you guys took that comment to mean he was advocating some kind of litmus test. But he was clearly stating a personal preference, not advocating any kind of restriction

I guarantee you that most Americans would be hesitant to vote for a Muslim. Are most Americans bigots or xenophobes? If such a mild remark is enough to earn those labels then they must not carry much weight. You already have the silly and made-up "Islamophobe", no need to misuse real words

EDIT: I recall being called a "xenophobe" here just for saying I'd prefer to live by people who mostly share my racial and cultural background. You guys have a really low bar for using these terms

[karaddin]

I don't think that example is as effective at demonstrating the low height of the bar as you think it is RG