Aerion Brightflame revisited

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys,

Rhaegel's children are mentioned twice in TMK, once in an unspecific manner and the second only as the 'the twins' but they are clearly supposed to be still 'children', suggesting that they are still pretty young - I'd guess in Egg's age, or slightly younger or older. They are old enough to be married in 217 AC when Aelor dies, but apparently not old enough to have any children by the time Aelor dies (presumably indicating that they weren't married all that long).

Technically it is possible that Daenora is already around in 211 AC, but I don't think that's very likely. Sure, it is possible that she had trouble conceiving and was actually married to Aerion for years prior to Maegor's birth but I don't think that's very likely.

The section on Baelor's sisters in TWoIaF refers to Ronnel Penrose (who isn't named in the section) as 'a lord'. Whether that means that he is the Lord of Parchments a lord of a Penrose cadet branch or he is just named so because he is a nobleman isn't clear. But I'd be very surprised if Daeron II married his cousin Elaena to a man who did not even hold a lordship, especially since he also wasn't qualified for the office of Master of Coin. Why name him to the office and give him a Targaryen princess in marriage if he brings virtually nothing to the table in return? Daeron II seems to have married Elaena to Ronnel so that she could effectively serve on his council as Mistress of Coin, but there has to be another reason why Daeron II thought he needed Ronnel Penrose in the first. If he is also the father of Aelinor Penrose through an earlier marriage then this guy had two Targaryens marry into his family, something that most certainly didn't happen by accident.

Lady Penrose doesn't have to mean that she was a Ruling Lady, but it could suggest something like that (a scenario that would cause additional problems of its own). But the way the story about Fireball is told could indicate that she is featuring prominently there she was close by or important or something like that. Possibly historians and singers might talk about Cersei Lannister's children or Catelyn Stark's children, too, considering that they fathers predeceased them.

Bran Vras,

one assumes that it happened rarely that a knight actually struck a prince of the blood in anger (i.e. outside the practice yard) but for the law to exist and have teeth there must have been more than a few precedents for Targaryen kings to implement and invoke it. My guess is this thing goes back to our good old friend Maegor - Aegon and Aenys seem too approachable and kind to come up with something like that. The king's royal person is confirmed as to be untouchable because no one was allowed to touch or beat Aegon III after he became king, not even during the Regency. But princes are a separate issue, and it is actually quite interesting to see what Tyrion presumes he can do to his princely nephew. Robert clearly had a much different regime than even the more amiable Targaryen kings.

Baelor led by example when he championed Dunk's cause. Just as the hearts of the people flew to Dunk they would also have flown to Baelor by the thousands had he survived.

[Antonius Pius]

Lord Varys,

The Trial of Seven in THK is specifically arranged by Aerion to annoy his brother, Daeron the Drunk. Both have named Dunk as perpetrator (striking the blood royal and fomenting rebellion ((the puppet show)) and absconding with Aegon), and Aerion makes it a point to give Daeron a chance to prove his accusation as well. He does this as much to taunt Daeron as he does to discomfit Dunk.

Where are you getting that Maekar married s Dayne who died well before him? I recall no mention of him marrying a Dayne, nor her pre-deceasing him.

This Dayne is the mother of his children?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The World of Ice and Fire states that Maekae was married to Dyanna Dayne, the mother of his six children. And according to Aegon in THK, his mother is dead.

[Shuvuuia]

i'm just wondering, could Baelor command the Kingsguard not to fight? As the crown prince would he override Maekar's orders?

[Lord Varys]

Antoninus Pius,

annoying Daeron is another reason for Aerion, but whether that's a real reason or a justification he makes up on the fly when Maekar accuses Aerion of being not brave enough to face Dunk himself isn't really clear. And yes, Dyanna Dayne is Maekar's only wife and the mother of his children, and she is dead by the time of THK because Egg tells us that his mother is dead. We don't know how she died, but it could be that she died in childbirth, delivering her youngest child, Princess Rhae.

Shuvuuia,

technically Baelor should have been able to forbid the Kingsguard to participate in the Trial of Seven. Not because he was the Prince of Dragonstone but because he was the Hand of the King, and would thus speak with the King's Voice in his father's absence. But it seems that Baelor was not willing to invoke that authority or was not yet certain that he would champion Dunk's cause when Maekar commanded the Kingsguard to fight alongside Daeron and Aerion. And once Baelor decided that he would fight with Dunk having three Kingsguard as enemy champions was actually a good way to minimize casualties during the trial, something Baelor was be keen to do. If Baelor had forbidden the Kingsguard to participate Maekar and Aerion would have just bought some other champions or outright commanded some of their retainers to fight in the trial.

[Shuvuuia]

Shuvuuia,

technically Baelor should have been able to forbid the Kingsguard to participate in the Trial of Seven. Not because he was the Prince of Dragonstone but because he was the Hand of the King, and would thus speak with the King's Voice in his father's absence. But it seems that Baelor was not willing to invoke that authority or was not yet certain that he would champion Dunk's cause when Maekar commanded the Kingsguard to fight alongside Daeron and Aerion. And once Baelor decided that he would fight with Dunk having three Kingsguard as enemy champions was actually a good way to minimize casualties during the trial, something Baelor was be keen to do. If Baelor had forbidden the Kingsguard to participate Maekar and Aerion would have just bought some other champions or outright commanded some of their retainers to fight in the trial.

-but what happens if two princes give Kingsguard conflicting orders? say if neither of them is a Hand and it's not a big rebellion Aerys vs Rhaegar question, but something smaller. Do they follow the eldest? 

-I meant before Baelor decided to fight. If thinking in-universe - without Kingsguard there technically would've been a bigger chance of someone else deciding to join Dunk's side. Some knights who want glory but won't risk fighting Kingsguard or who know they are not good enough but would chance it if there are only the likes of Steffon Fossoway for their opponents. (obviously in the novel they wouldn't because there should be the "no real knights" moment). 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

From Selmy in ADwD we do know that it is up to the king whether the Kingsguard can accept orders from the princes at all. Selmy tells us there that the king decides whether his KG should protect only the royal person or whether KG protection should extend to the queen and the royal children, or even the king's extended family (brothers, uncles, cousins, bastards, mistresses, and so forth).

Daeron II was obviously one of the kings who extended KG protection to his sons and grandsons, which is evident by the fact that three KGs are at Ashford (and if I'm not mistaken one of them actually came there with Maekar from Summerhall, suggesting that one of the KG might be permanently assigned to Maekar).

That said, I've no clue what a KG does or can do if the king is absent and two royal princes issue conflicting orders. I assume that if the KG in question was assigned by the King or the Hand to one of those princes as a sworn shield/protector he would be prone to follow that prince's orders even if the other were the elder. But that's just a guess. What a KG can do if he is assigned to neither of the princes in question it would most likely boil down to who he likes more or whose order he prefers to follow.

A lot of this stuff greatly depends on the characters and preferences of the people involved. We see, for instance, that Cersei is very much in control of all of Robert's Kingsguard (even Barristan Selmy) despite the fact that she is merely the queen and their ultimate loyalty should be to Robert. But since Robert doesn't like conflict all that much and doesn't care about many things it is evident that Cersei slowly became an authority figure for them over time, just as she is for many people at Robert's court.

Similar things would happen to long-living princes and Hands at court, too. Septon Barth, Prince Viserys as Hand, Bloodraven would all, most likely, almost casually boss Kingsguard around as the whole ruling business would come almost naturally to them. With those princes not involved in ruling but still present at court it might be similar, although on a lesser degree. Princes would only be able to issue commands to those Kingsguard they interacted with.

A good example for the hold even an insignificant prince can have over the KG is Ser Joffrey Staunton, the KG who threatened Merry Meg's husband (a smith in Fairmarket) to sell his wife to Prince Aegon, the future Aegon the Unworthy. That was in 155 AC, when Aegon III still sat on the Iron Throne, and Aegon was pretty much at the very end of the line of succession. True, there was most likely nobody issuing a conflicting order at that point, but Staunton must have known that the prince was doing a vile and illegal thing there, and that his father, the Hand of the King, and his uncle the king most likely wouldn't approve of this kind of thing at all. Yet he still went along with it.

[AerionBrightflameII]

I don't think Aerion was afraid of Dunk. He just enjoyed causing all that trouble, besides he was dominating his fight against Dunk. Well until Dunk unleashed the gutter rat buried deep within. He was shocked and a little afraid after Dunk beat him though.

 

Kingsguard obey the King, Princes no matter birthing order are of equal rank i assume but once one succeeds the other to become King they obey the new King i always assumed.

[Veloknight]

Bran Vras,

we could also understand Baelor being the Lord Protector as Daeron II early on handing the martial/military part of ruling to him since he didn't seem to be into that kind of thing at all. From what we know he didn't take an active role as a military leader during the Blackfyre Rebellion. Rhaenyra allowed Daemon to style himself Lord Protector, too, supposedly because she as a woman left the whole military stuff to her consort.

It's funny, I always saw Deamon being Lord Protector to be much more a sign of weakness on Rhaenyra's part than Baelor. While it would make sense for a latter-day Targ, Rhaenyra Targaryen was a dragonrider and a warrior who could thus destroy even the finest ordinary knight. Even the relatively feminine Rhaenys Targaryen went into battle in Dorne, and who can forget the fight her namesake, the Queen-who-never-was, put up in the Dance? Given how much of the hostility towards Rhaenyra was motivated by animus towards Prince Daemon, taking (or even just sharing) the Protectorate might be a way of underscoring that her reign would be her own.

As I see them, Hand of the King is the penultimate political and administrative office, while Protector of the Realm is the ultimate military (and, to some extend as is inevitable, diplomatic) office in the realm. The King typically reserves the Protector of the Realm title themselves (as the powers of war and peace are two of the principal and distinct powers of a king), but there's almost always a Hand to deal with administrative needs. I think the Protector of the Realm title is a little higher in rank, and would indicate to any lord or foreign diplomat that Baelor isn't just the next king and key minister, but almost a junior king as is - the one whose recommendations on military and diplomatic policy Daeron will almost certainly accept, and with authority to make promises and snap decisions as such on his father's behalf, beyond what a Hand might make.

 

I don't think Aerion was afraid of Dunk. He just enjoyed causing all that trouble, besides he was dominating his fight against Dunk. Well until Dunk unleashed the gutter rat buried deep within. He was shocked and a little afraid after Dunk beat him though.

 

Kingsguard obey the King, Princes no matter birthing order are of equal rank i assume but once one succeeds the other to become King they obey the new King i always assumed.

Do they, though? The Prince/Princess of Dragonstone is, by definition, the #2 ranked individual within House Targaryen, which would imply some degree of authority over the others, certainly a first among equals. Besides, as has been said, Baelor speaks for the King and also has supreme military command - each of these would seem to indicate room to order the Kingsguard.

[Lord Varys]

Veloknight,

the history and nature of the title/office of Lord Protector could actually be quite interesting. It enters the fray presumably with Aegon's coronation in Oldtown, where 'Protector of the Realm' is one of his titles. That suggests that whatever the title refers to or entails is part of the royal authority of the sovereign, and not actually an office. What it refers to is unclear at this point.

Real world historical parallels in England have the 'Lords Protector' be the usual style for regents during a king's minority/incapacity (during the Plantagenet era). Later on it becomes a sort of monarchic office in itself in Cromwell's days (and since then regents ruling in the name of a British monarch no longer use that title at all).

In Westeros the first time the title of Protector of the Realm isn't the monarch's is during the short regency of Jaehaerys I when the Queen Regent Alyssa Velaryon grants Robar Baratheon that title (who is also the Hand of the King). This could be a hint that it really refers to the martial part of the ruling.

But it doesn't seem to mean that the Protector is the guy in charge, not even during a regency. Lysa Arryn names that Littlefinger Lord Protector of the Vale and retains the power to dismiss him again (because she is ruling the Vale in the name of her son, no one else).

Prince Daemon gets the title of Lord Protector during the Dance, but it is Rhaenyra who sits the Iron Throne and actually rules (however good or bad she may do that). Unlike other Targaryen women like Visenya, Daena the Defiant or possibly even Alysanne and Baela, Rhaenyra is a very womanly woman. She doesn't excel or care about the manly part of ruling. Yes, she is groomed to rule, and can rule, but she never cared to be trained at arms or act as a military commander (an unfortunate decision on George's part, I'd say, at least the latter part, considering that Rhaenyra was actually the only female Targaryen who actually could have personally led armies in her own name). She didn't even engage in dragon warfare prior to the beginning of the war (unlike, apparently, Rhaenys and Meleys in their youth).

In that sense it is understandable that Rhaenyra grants Daemon the Lord Protector title - it doesn't mean that he is calling the shots. But he commands her army in the Riverlands up until they take KL. Thereafter his influence seem to dwindle. He hunts Aemond with Nettles and then he just dies.

During the Regency of Aegon III the Lord Protector is not one of the regents nor do they all hold that title - it went to Leowyn Corbray, at least in the beginning of the Regency.

Who is in charge if the Protector is not also the Hand or the monarch is completely unclear to me. The Hand always speaks with the King's Voice, but the Lord Protector does not (or does he?). A/The regent holds all the powers of the monarch so he can (collectively) name or dismiss the Lord Protector and the Hand, that much is clear, but where exactly the Protector is rank-wise in comparison to the Hand I don't know.

The office of the Lord Protector clearly can also seize all the powers of the monarch/lord - e.g. Littlefinger in the wake of Lysa's death in the Vale. There is no longer a regent but the Lord Protector seems to be acting in her place now.

This makes it not so unlikely that Mace will see no reason to appoint a new Lord Regent/Protector in the wake of Kevan's death because he as Hand is now effectively in charge anyway, just as Littlefinger is.

[Squire-of-the-Bat]

Does anyone ever wonder if Bloodraven might have somehow tricked Aerion into drinking that cup of wildfire? Brynden Rivers may be ruthless, sneaky, underhanded and willing to get his hands dirty, yet he's no fool and could certainly see that Aerion would be a nightmare on the Iron Throne. Since he's already cursed as kinslayer, might as well get rid the problem while he can. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Does anyone ever wonder if Bloodraven might have somehow tricked Aerion into drinking that cup of wildfire? Brynden Rivers may be ruthless, sneaky, underhanded and willing to get his hands dirty, yet he's no fool and could certainly see that Aerion would be a nightmare on the Iron Throne. Since he's already cursed as kinslayer, might as well get rid the problem while he can. 

According to Aemon, Aerion also had dragondreams, so I'd more suspect those were the cause of his drunken decision to drink wildfire.

 

I also think we know too little or Aerion to say he was completely unfit for the throne. He wasn't a pleasant man when he was younger, but more than twenty years pass between the Aerion we see and Aerion's death, and we only know little of Aerion from that period of time.

[Lord Fauntleroy]

Just because he's a bigoted elitist in one short story doesn't mean Aerion was a horrible person his entire life. I look forward to seeing how this dark-grey character develops.

[Shuvuuia]

Just because he's a bigoted elitist in one short story doesn't mean Aerion was a horrible person his entire life. I look forward to seeing how this dark-grey character develops.

idk, threatening Egg with castration (even if only to frighten) is really a big red flag

plus he isn't just a bigoted elitist, he is also violent (breaks Tanselle's fingers, wants to break Dunk's teeth)

 

[Lord Fauntleroy]

idk, threatening Egg with castration (even if only to frighten) is really a big red flag

plus he isn't just a bigoted elitist, he is also violent (breaks Tanselle's fingers, wants to break Dunk's teeth)

 

He's also probably an edgy teenager eager to be great. It's not impossible for assholes to mellow out as they get older and mature.

[Shuvuuia]

He's also probably an edgy teenager eager to be great. It's not impossible for assholes to mellow out as they get older and mature.

well in real life or if you are a major character in a book - yes. I'm not sure about Aerion (or it would be a soft ret-con because nothing in the main books indicates that he would mellow, including Maester's Aemon talking about meeting his sisters and Daeron in the afterlife but not including Aerion). Calling one's son Maegor doesn't strike me as very mature.

I think his complexity would be more of being brave on the battlefield or loving his wife and son.

[Squire-of-the-Bat]

. I'm not sure about Aerion (or it would be a soft ret-con because nothing in the main books indicates that he would mellow, including Maester's Aemon talking about meeting his sisters and Daeron in the afterlife but not including Aerion). Calling one's son Maegor doesn't strike me as very mature.

 

Probably because Aemon had bad memories of Aerion(as a child he was probably bullied by Aerion like Aegon was). Almost none of the accounts given of Aerion say anything good about him, so it doesn't seem he change much from the time of THK.

[bemused]

The priests of R'Hllor don't have a monopoly on red ,yellow and orange.. they adopted them because they are the colours that commonly represent fire. Bloodraven's white dragon breathes red fire, but I don't think it's connected to R'Hllor in any way. Red is one colour connected to the old gods, but the red on Bloodraven's banner is also dragon flame. ... House Martell uses the colours to represent the sun and a golden spear- nothing to do with dragons or R'hllor.