The implications of the Paris attacks

[The Marquis de Leech]

 

I guess only time will tell which vision is more realistic. I guess we are talking about opposing visions of human nature. One drawing lessons from history. The other dreaming idealistic dreams about the future.

Which lesson from history are you drawing on in support of your Fortress Europe thesis? You know, seeing as Fortress Europe has literally never existed.

[SeanF]

There are competing visions of the future at play here. Some see a kind of peaceful, seamlessly integrated multicultural future Europe.

I see Western Europe eventually descending into a Balkanized state of affairs, as increasingly hostile communities within each country descend into greater and greater conflict with one another. And this is what the policymakers should prevent today, before it becomes inevitable tomorrow.

I guess only time will tell which vision is more realistic. I guess we are talking about opposing visions of human nature. One drawing lessons from history. The other dreaming idealistic dreams about the future.

I think your vision is correct.  Allowing mass immigration from failed States, is most unlikely to turn out well for Europe's existing population.

[Lyanna Stark]

The fuck am I reading ?

Dude, chill. If you're freaking out about the way Islam is coming to Europe, look at how it came to India. Yet  today they are a part of us. The way of life this country is striving to protect from all extremists internal and external of all religions and creeds is their way of life too. So fucking chill. The way you all are talking makes it sound like these are fucking zombie hordes coming to Europe.

That's the problem with today's world. It's all about the West. Granted that's how technically it's been since WWII but fuck, times have changed. West isn't the only one suffering and sure as hell you're not going to be able to solve any problems until you recognize that. And what's with this bullshit about sending them back or not letting them in ? Sounds like Security's just a pretext for something entirely else here. Anyway, it doesn't matter because that's not how this works. It won't matter to those who are coming to wreck terror on Europe. Not that it is possible anyway.

He's not European tho, so I guess from another vantage point, Europe's been this pristine, white, non-war zone without any racial struggles?

Apart from the fact that it's disregarding stuff like history and facts, with little things like WW1 and WW2, lots of terrorist attacks by IRA, by Algerians in France, the Lockerbie bombings, etc. And that little extermination events by the Nazis where Jews and Roma went bye bye, but you know, apart from those and a few other things: fortress Europe! Let's go back to how it was!!

Only, I think this is trying to go back to a place and a time that has never existed, only in some vague version in the minds of people who weren't there at the time. It's also really simple and appealing to some to blame all of this on brown people, cos what is different between now and the 1940s or what have you? Apart from lots of complex political and sociological and technical stuff (war is a great driver for technical development), well, we have more non-white immigrants, too. So clearly it must be them!

[Free Northman Reborn]

Scott

Where do you get this from? No.

My approach, as I have said before, is to go learn from Israel. A country that is surrounding by Islamic enemies, that faces far worse security threats than Europe, and yet is somehow able to be a thriving, sophisticated democracy in the midst of all of this.

Some of the things that Europe lacks compared to Israel are, in no particular order:

A strong sense of identity and patriotism

A vigilant society actively involved in the security of the country - in fact I believe all Israelis do military service at some point

Ruthless security measures when it comes to protecting their citizens

And a host of other characteristics which the post-heroic (I really like that term), post-confrontational Europeans have largely abandoned in the era after WW2.

It is ironic that the greatest victims of WW2 are the ones that learned the greatest lessons from it, and are applying it today.

[Luzifer's right hand]

That's impossible ! White Christians live here yet do none of the above ! Something's fishy here.

Are you serious? Europeans countries are not the way they are because they are Christian. Do you know what the word secular means?

(btw: I'm not making fun of you I have encountered people who do not seem to understand that concept before, sometimes it's difficult to communicate with people from other cultures ) 

 

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Scott

Where do you get this from? No.

My approach, as I have said before, is to go learn from Israel. A country that is surrounding by Islamic enemies, that has a far worse security situation than Europe, and yet is somehow able to be thriving, sophisticated democracy in the midst of all of this.

Some of the things that Europe lacks compared to Israel are, in no particular order:

A strong sense of identity and patriotism

A vigilant society actively involved in the security of the country - in fact I believe all Israelis do military service at some point

Ruthless security measures when it comes to protecting their citizens

And a large Arab Muslim population.

Yay, multiculturalism!

[Maltaran]

No it's a fact that one of the mass murderers was a Syrian refugee, you can read all about it in the link to the New York Times I provided in a previous post.

I saw something earlier saying that the Syrian passport they found was a fake. 

[Lyanna Stark]

Which lesson from history are you drawing on in support of your Fortress Europe thesis? You know, seeing as Fortress Europe has literally never existed.

Indeed.

It also seems to me, and I think you agree (based on earlier threads  ) that the real threat to Europe is far more economical in nature than it depends on multiculturalism or people with brown skin immigrating. Austerity politics, privatisation and this weird neoconservative financial politics of one half Ayn Rand, one half nepotism, are strangling Europe.

More people in work and more people making a salary worth living on, in flats/houses of decent standard will create ways for people to succeed and solve some of the problems with recruitment for extremist movements.

 

[The Marquis de Leech]

And a large Arab Muslim population.

Yay, multiculturalism!

And billions of dollars in US aid every year to fund its military toys.

[Mexal]

I saw something earlier saying that the Syrian passport they found was a fake. 

Seems awfully convenient that a suicide bomber walked around with identifying documents. Logically, makes no sense unless someone wanted it to be found.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Onion Ahai

And yet it is a proudly Jewish State (despite having a large secular part of their population). Imagine Europe stating that it is a Christian continent first and foremost. They would choke in their latte's due to the offense this would cause to any possible non-Christians.

[Mexal]

Onion Ahai

And yet it is a proudly Jewish State (despite having a large secular part of their population). Imagine Europe stating that it is a Christian continent first and foremost. They would choke in their latte's due to the offense this would cause to any possible non-Christians.

Even Israel can't entirely stop individual suicide bombers and it's one country, not a continent made up of many countries. No matter your security, these guys will be able to get in. Millions of people cross these borders every year, tough to catch all the ones who have ill intent but no real background flags.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Which lesson from history are you drawing on in support of your Fortress Europe thesis? You know, seeing as Fortress Europe has literally never existed.

RBPL,

Sure it did.  Under Nazi Germany.

[McCracken]

Hayyoth,

I'm in favor of carefully considered and carefully executed attacks that take every effort to avoid killing people who aren't targets to show... we aren't worse than the Daesh.

Hayyoth:

"So you want war but with all the nasty problematic bits removed? We'll call this war lite, the low fat low carb version. So in your opinion what we've been doing up to now, which is what you advocate we continue doing, has been a resounding success?"

You know what you sound like here Hayyoth?  A terrorist.  Thats exacly the sort of conversations they will be having.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Scott

Well that didn't take long.

And I guess that is the inevitable reason why all these discussions always fail. Because Europe is so terrified of what happened under that lunatic Hitler that they are desperate to avoid even the mere accusation of the remotest idea of a similar nature.

They are symbolically emasculated, "post-confrontational" as Big Lose described it, and at the mercy of people who exploit this worldview eagerly.

If only all your enemies abided by the same worldview.

[Arkash]

Imagine Europe stating that it is a Christian continent first and foremost. They would choke in their latte's due to the offense this would cause to any possible non-Christians

Well, hopefully that can never happen in France ! ^^

We are too proud of our laicity (I think we are the only laic country in the world actually), and truth be told, France is definitly not a very religious country ! 

After all, we struggled hard to dissociate church from state, we wont give the Clergé back it's influence three centuries after casting them down ! ^^ 

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Onion Ahai

And yet it is a proudly Jewish State (despite having a large secular part of their population). Imagine Europe stating that it is a Christian continent first and foremost. They would choke in their latte's due to the offense this would cause to any possible non-Christians.

So, in your mind, are all the problems of multiculturalism solved by the majority group making essentially non-binding declarations about the character of the State? And would you be willing to accept a compromise where if Europe (somehow all as one) were to declare itself a Christian continent, it would then be ok to accept immigrants and refugees en masse, and carry on as a multicultural society?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Arkash

It is not about religion. Large parts of Israel are secular.

It is about establishing a strong national identity. And making it clear that this is what the core values of your country are built around.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Scott

Well that didn't take long.

And I guess that is the inevitable reason why all these discussions always fail. Because Europe is so terrified of what happened under that lunatic Hitler that they are desperate to avoid even the mere accusation of the remotest idea of a similar nature.

They are symbolically emasculated, "post-confrontational" as Big Lose described it, and at the mercy of people who exploit this worldview eagerly.

If only all your enemies abided by the same worldview.

FNR,

Because fortifying Europe worked out so well for Nazi Germany?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Onion Ahai

If Israel remains as one state, with its current demographic trajectory continuing, then the Jewish state is doomed. So either they have to drive all Arabs out of Israel (which is unlikely to be practical) or they MUST go for the two state solution, thus ensuring a majority ethnic Jewish population for the future in the Jewish side of the divide.

Anyway, that is beside the point of the main discussion. I guess Israel is relevant insofar as one wonders what Israel would do if attacked by Islamic State. I imagine the response would be quite different to letting more and more Arab refugees into their country.