The implications of the Paris attacks

[Tijgy]

I think that Belgium should finally deal really with that place in Brussels which keeps getting connected with terrorist attacks: Molenbeek. 

1° Charlie Hebdo: weapons were probably bought in Brussels

2° Verviers (some coordinated house searches by the Belgian police over whole Belgium; some of the terrorists also came from Molenbeek; this terrorist cel was planning to attack the Belgian police over the whole country but they were stopped by the Belgian authorities)

3° Thalys: weapons were probably bought in Brussels (Molenbeek)

4° 13/11/: at this moment house searches are going on in Molenbeek, some media are saying three of the terrorists came from Belgium; they used maybe Belgian cars; ...

In one year Brussels is connected with terrorist attacks at least four times. Belgium is now as a transit country for illicit weapon trade. So I think you cannot deny there is a problem in Brussels. The question is how will you deal with it? 

Edit: maybe I am overreacting about the involvement with the Paris attack: the link between Molenbeek and the Paris attacks is based on the fact they found in the car a parking ticket originated from Molenbeek.  

[thewalliswheretheheartis]

What does that involve?

Well, first recognize they are not and never where a jv team. Secondly, take the fight to them. I would venture to guess the people of France would prefer that this fight wasn't in their backyard.

[Seli]

...

Thats just nonsense. They want the same as osama wanted, that the west retreats and gives in to fear. What would their achievment be, if we would lash out? It is one thing to claim you fight against the crusaders, it is a totally different thing if you actually would turn europe into crusaders, believe me. It is the false thinking of adequating the usefullness of terrorism against colonial forces in their colonies because they could retreat to their homeland which would automatically be free from any person interested in terrorism against them. The only way for europe to make a full "retreat" would be to cleanse europe from islam.

...

Their stated intend is to destroy any complexity in the world, where people regardless of religion and ethnicity can share countries and diminish everything to a black and white, us versus them version. And these attacks, sacrificing a few people on your own side and let the opposition hurt themselves in blindly attacking anything that is remotely similar to ISIS (ie looking at some people in this thread any Muslim) is a brilliantly efficient way to achieve that. Look at what people want to do, violating the rights of co-citizens on mere religious grounds. Destroying whole countries out of fear for a few.

The only way out of this is not falling into this trap, and let the extremist be extremists. Isolate them, not the whole culture they sprang up from, and continue to live together as humans. No that won't stop anything on the short run, but it is the only solution that does not necessitate a (cultural) genocide.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Well, first recognize they are not and never where a jv team. Secondly, take the fight to them. I would venture to guess the people of France would prefer that this fight wasn't in their backyard.

France is already engaged, along with other Western nations, in airstrikes against ISIS.

[Horza]

Secondly, take the fight to them.

What does that involve, beyond what the US, France, Germany a dozen plus other countries are already doing?

[Malik Ambar]

Yeah, it is now apparent that military action alone will not solve this problem

[A Prince of Dorne]

The only way out of this is not falling into this trap, and let the extremist be extremists. Isolate them, not the whole culture they sprang up from, and continue to live together as humans. No that won't stop anything on the short run, but it is the only solution that does not necessitate a (cultural) genocide.

I certainly don't hope for anything resembling genocide, but it has become difficult for me to continue to sit here and agree with this type of reaction. Something in the water is rotten and needs to be addressed. I disagree with the right-hand extreme reaction that just says "bomb the whole area into submission", but I also disagree with the left-hand reaction that feels disturbingly like defensiveness and typically says "do nothing." 

[Arakan]

As a first step, the US and Western allies should take the hand Russia offered them and fight together in Syria, against all extremists. It is time for Obama to finally recognize that they placed their bet on the wrong horse. 

[kuroishi]

As a first step, the US and Western allies should take the hand Russia offered them and fight together in Syria, against all extremists. It is time for Obama to finally recognize that they placed their bet on the wrong horse. 

And what exactly is that "wrong horse" to you? Democracy?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

I certainly don't hope for anything resembling genocide, but it has become difficult for me to continue to sit here and agree with this type of reaction. Something in the water is rotten and needs to be addressed. I disagree with the right-hand extreme reaction that just says "bomb the whole area into submission", but I also disagree with the left-hand reaction that feels disturbingly like defensiveness and typically says "do nothing." 

When people are reacting with "take the fight to them!" it bears pointing out that this is what has already been happening. Expanding beyond ISIS, various Western nations have been intervening in Middle East political conflicts and fighting extremist groups in the Middle East for decades upon decades. And here we are today. Has it worked?

In this light, the reaction "do nothing" is better understood as "do less."

[Arakan]

And what exactly is that "wrong horse" to you? Democracy?

what are you talking about? 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I think the Daesh want us to attack full bore to attempt to portray themselves as victims in an attempt to unite the Muslim Umma behind their self proclaimed Kalifa.  Whether that will work or not, I suppose we'll see.

[MinDonner]

 

And you suggest what? Talking nicely and maybe they'll be nice too?

 

You're the one who needs to grow the fuck up and deal in reality here. ISIS is not going to go away unless they are sent to their graves.

 

Nowhere did I say anything about nukes. Don't need them. Modern weaponry has made nukes essentially obsolete.

 

Look, I thought Iraq was stupid and I watched my father suffer the after effects of Vietnam, another stupid and pointless war. Bit sometimes you have to get down and dirty. While ISIS remains, the whole world is at risk.

Heaven forfend you would suggest something so crude as nukes in your elaborate "kill every single human being in the region" plan! My apologies for misrepresenting!

Yes, of course we need to fucking do something about ISIS. And military action will have to be part of that. But the focus has to be on rebuilding, not destroying (and then selling off the ashes to Halliburton). Iraq failed because there was no plan beyond "go there, kick Saddam out, secure oil supplies, INSTANT DEMOCRACY, gtfo" - seemingly zero understanding of the region or how it worked, and not enough will to finish the job in a way that would last, so of course it fell prey to the nearest bunch of armed fanatics. IMO, you break it, you bought it, and we need to fucking fix this shit properly this time, no matter how long it takes. And by "fix" I mean "actually fix", it's not just a hi-larious euphemism.

[Arakan]

As long as the US sees Iran as the big evil and not Saudi Arabia, as long extremist groups, be it AQ or IS, will exist. 

IS and AQ ideology is born in KSA. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

KSA is the source of much of the support for hard core Salafi's who are most of the "Terrorists".  We could embargo the Kingdom of SA until the end all support for Salafi's.  That would create incredible economic difficulties but might actually be effective.

[Free Northman Reborn]

So it is being reported that the Greek authorities have confirmed that the passport found with one of the dead terrorists was that of a Syrian refugee who entered Europe through Greece on 3 October.

[Chaircat Meow]

Why does anybody think this will be resolved by bombing the Middle East. If ISIS is broken as a state its only way of hitting its foes will be terrorist style attacks, such as we saw in Paris. Currently it is also pumping resources into holding land in Iraq and Syria instead, while playing some role in Islamist attacks in Europe (degree of actual involvement at this time is still murky, no). Surely the point about terrorist organizations like ISIS is that bases are only an advantage, not a necessity.

 

Here is ISIS's statement claiming responsibility, in English trans, if anyone is interested.

 

http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/2015/11/the-first-of-the-storm-translation-of-islamic-state-statement-after-paris-attacks/

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

FNR,

That could be by design.  The Daesh want all Muslims to be oppressed by the West to force them back into the Daesh fold.  An over-reaction to Muslim immigrants plays in favor of the Daesh.

[Toth]

It's especially unlikely if it gets confirmed that the guy arrested in Bavaria was part of the same operation. True jihadists travel by plane.

[Wise Fool]

This explains it a bit better: https://medium.com/dan-sanchez-blog/the-paris-attack-was-all-about-the-grayzone-79642f39d61e

I think a lot of people in the west need to read this. 9/11 and every discussion of terrorist attacks since then has always involved people who think the right response is to become anti-Muslim.