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Tywin, Stannis, Roose, and Randyl


Winter Blues

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Stannis was winning before Tywin and the Tyrells turned up. This should be obvious from the reaction in the Throne Room and the Hound ready to make his escape.

"Since the night of the battle. Lord Tywin saved us all. The smallfolk say it was King Renly's ghost, but wiser men know better. It was your father and Lord Tyrell, with the Knight of Flowers and Lord Littlefinger. They rode through the ashes and took the usurper Stannis in the rear. It was a great victory"

We know from Bronn that just before Tywin and the Tyrells arrived that the half the Gold Cloaks had given up and were about to retreat, they were clearly losing. Had reinforcements not turned up Stannis would have won. He would have taken casualties and lost much of his navy but he still would have won.

 Lancel was frightened and hurt, even more so when looking at heroes like Sandor in worse conditions. Sandor had his reasons.

  Never trust a Maester. I'm not arguing the populace regard Tywin as saver of the city

   We do not know when the goldcloaks broke and murdered Jacelyn, it could have been before or after Tywin arrived. The situation was very dire, but not once did the battle go Stannis' way, that's why I won't call it a guaranteed win.

 

Stannis' army consisted of his 5,000 men and number of Renly's cavalry for around ~20,000), while Tywin had his forces (~15,000), Tyrion's (~8,000), and Mace's (~60,000).  The Lannisters and Tyrells vastly outnumbered Stannis went they hit him in the rear.

The fact that Penrose isn't a moron.  If Lord Blackwood could organize a sally to hit the Lannisters at the battle of Riverrun while not knowing Robb was coming then Penrose would have done the same when knowing Renly is there and battle is soon to happen.

Robert was still a commander in that victory. The same with Stoney Sept and Pyke with him being the overall commander in the latter case.

No, because they met up at Stoney Sept.

Robert has a better record and is considered better by people that served under both.  An unproven charge, I say that Stannis isn't at all better than Renly with him making many more mistakes than Renly ever did.  Heck, he repeatedly makes one of the mistakes that you charge Renly in doing in your criticism of him.

Why does Stannis only take Renly's cavalry? Are you sure you did the math here, I see alotta ~. Ok, I believe you.

  Here, I don't. Penrose is given orders to hold Storms End. Blackwood was not. As we saw Renlys council and Penrose was given no further orders; Your assumption is borderline  fanfic.

   Yes, Robert was commander, buy that's nothing when Eddard is there as 2nd fixing all your mistakes. Mace commanded Maidenpool, do you really think he's the mind behind it, not Randyll? 

How do you know Jon wasn't there?

Robert was king and everyone has to talk nice. Plus he was tall and handsome and most importantly, Neds modest. .

You are right we do, as Renly was part of that same siege. He, unlike his brother just does not whine about it. This suggests that he would have been able to stay longer.

 

 

"Yields?" Lord Rowan laughed. "When Mace Tyrell laid siege to Storm's End, Stannis ate rats rather than open his gates."

"Well I remember." Renly lifted his chin to allow Brienne to fasten his gorget in place. "Near the end, Ser Gawen Wylde and three of his knights tried to steal out a postern gate to surrender. Stannis caught them and ordered them flung from the walls with catapults. I can still see Gawen's face as they strapped him down. He had been our master-at-arms."

Lord Rowan appeared puzzled. "No men were hurled from the walls. I would surely remember that."

Renly always dissapoints

 

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 Lancel was frightened and hurt, even more so when looking at heroes like Sandor in worse conditions. Sandor had his reasons.

Provide a character who backs you up, don't just say that every character who suggests that Stannis was winning was wrong.

  Never trust a Maester. I'm not arguing the populace regard Tywin as saver of the city

I have seen you do this before, disregard a source because you don't like it, be it a Maester, a relative of Tywin or the History book. You do this without providing an alternate source to back up your opinion.

Textual evidence, how much you might not like it, carries more weight than an unfounded opinion. This is especially true that everyone in the books, from the Crown to Stannis' side to the smallfolk and to the largely impartial Maesters agree that Tywin and Tyrells saved the day. Stannis was winning.

   We do not know when the goldcloaks broke and murdered Jacelyn, it could have been before or after Tywin arrived.

Yes we do. It was right after Joffrey left the field. "During the battle. Your sister sent the Kettleblacks to fetch the king back to the Red Keep, the way I hear it. When the gold cloaks saw him leavin' half of them decided they'd leave with him. Ironhand put himself in their path and tried to order them back to the walls. They say Bywater was blistering them good and almost had 'em ready to turn when someone put an arrow through his neck. He didn't seem so fearsome then, so they dragged him off his horse and killed him."

 

The situation was very dire, but not once did the battle go Stannis' way, that's why I won't call it a guaranteed win.

 

Sure, if you want to say it was not guaranteed then fine. But until the Tyrells and Tywin showed up Stannis looked the more likely victor.

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1) He certainly took becoming King seriously.

2) Sure, though they were not hanged. Would those men tried to desert had a better, more charismatic leader been left in charge? Morale would have been down, somehow I can't imagine Stannis was the right man to keep their spirits high. And his attitude towards smugglers probably scared some of them off leaving them relying on just the Onion knight.

3) You claimed he was the only person from the Stormlands. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/135785-tywin-stannis-roose-and-randyl/&do=findComment&comment=7360382 Which is pretty ridiculous. I'm glad that you are backtracking from that obviously hyperbolic statement.

 

 

1) Did he really?

Even as  a  boy,  Renly  had  loved  bright colors  and  rich  fabrics,  and  he  had  loved  his  games  as  well.  “Look  at  me!”  he  would  shout  as  he ran  laughing through  the  halls  of  Storm’s  End.  “Look  at  me,  I’m  a dragon,”  or  “Look at  me,  I’m a wizard,” or “Look at me, look at me, I’m the rain god.” The  bold  little  boy  with wild  black  hair  and  laughing  eyes  was  a  man grown now,  one-andtwenty,  and  still  he played  his  games. Look  at  me,  I’m  a  king,  Cressen thought  sadly

 

2) In such situations, you need a hard man to keep a check on people and keep them in line. I do get your point that Stannis was not much for morale booster, but Renly doesn't have the hardness that's required and he can do nothing on charms alone.

 

3) I am not backtracking off my statement. I still say that no Stormlord could have done it.

I am just claiming that Stannis isn't the only one capable and maybe other people in the 7K could do it but not any of the Stormlords.

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Why does Stannis only take Renly's cavalry? Are you sure you did the math here, I see alotta ~. Ok, I believe you.

Because that was only what Renly brought to him to SE.  Tarly and Loras work to ensure that none of Renly's foot joins Stannis.  This is all clearly told to us in the story.

Here, I don't. Penrose is given orders to hold Storms End. Blackwood was not. As we saw Renlys council and Penrose was given no further orders; Your assumption is borderline  fanfic.

Sallying out and helping your king is help break a siege is holding a castle.  Penrose wasn't told anymore orders as he was still in SE as he cannot just ride out and join Renly for a while when Stannis is camped outside his gates.  The entire argument that Stannis could have still won is fanfic.

Yes, Robert was commander, buy that's nothing when Eddard is there as 2nd fixing all your mistakes. Mace commanded Maidenpool, do you really think he's the mind behind it, not Randyll? 

Ned wasn't there for around half of Robert's victories.  Simply, Robert is was a great commander and is considered so in universe by people that have served under both him and Stannis as being better.  Moreover, if we are going this route I can just say I don't think Stannis was responsible for any of his more famous victories instead it was all Cressen at the siege.

Renly always dissapoints

That doesn't connect at all to what littledragon said as Renly isn't complaining just remembering a story from the siege.

 

1) Did he really?

 

Even as  a  boy,  Renly  had  loved  bright colors  and  rich  fabrics,  and  he  had  loved  his  games  as  well.  “Look  at  me!”  he  would  shout  as  he ran  laughing through  the  halls  of  Storm’s  End.  “Look  at  me,  I’m  a dragon,”  or  “Look at  me,  I’m a wizard,” or “Look at me, look at me, I’m the rain god.” The  bold  little  boy  with wild  black  hair  and  laughing  eyes  was  a  man grown now,  one-andtwenty,  and  still  he played  his  games. Look  at  me,  I’m  a  king,  Cressen thought  sadly

 

Yep, he did.  The fact that the highly pro-Stannis biased Cressen that hasn't seen Renly in decades doesn't think so means little.

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1) Did he really?

Yes, quite clearly. Had he not taken becoming King seriously he would have given in to Stannis or he would not have amassed the largest military support of any king in the war.

He seemed to take it as seriously, or maybe more so, than any of his contenders as he was actually thinking of the next steps of securing his kingdom. I would say Stannis was less serious about it as he thought that just sitting on the Throne would make him King rather than actually trying to win people on side.

2) In such situations, you need a hard man to keep a check on people and keep them in line. I do get your point that Stannis was not much for morale booster, but Renly doesn't have the hardness that's required and he can do nothing on charms alone.

There is more than one way to keep people in line.

 

3) I am not backtracking off my statement. I still say that no Stormlord could have done it.

I am just claiming that Stannis isn't the only one capable and maybe other people in the 7K could do it but not any of the Stormlords.

No one in the Stormlands? Do you even know all the vassals and possibilities to take command 15 years ago? For all we know there was other Baratheons alive who could have done so, or relatives on Roberts Estermont side. The idea that the teenage Stannis was the only person capable of doing it is ridiculous. Yes many would have failed but then some would have done a better job.

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Think again.

Robert was the head, then Joffrey, then Tommen, then freaking Myrcella. So Renly betrayed Robert, Joff, Tommen, Myrc, Stannis and Shireen.

He won against 100k terrified and starving savages armed with sticks and stones, who didn't expect to see the medieval equivalent of tanks charge them out of nowhere, and who didn't have solid leadership.

It was not an impressive victory in the least. That is your opinion. For me when 1500 people win over 100000 who were fighting in this weather and place since birth it's impressive.

I suppose it's also logical to say that Robert Strong is not made of Gregor Clegane, or that Jon is not Rhaegar's child. We have parts in the books to imply that Jon is Rhaegar's and RStrong being Clegane. Stannis saying that he will destroy Renly when the battle was already arranged isn't one of them.

Things don't have to be explicitly said, mate. Sometimes it's required to read between the lines. Yet there is nothing to prove what you say. But when you say between the lines you may mean your personal views and not the books.

Sending a magic vagina monster to go murder a man at night when you had agreed to meet him on the field of battle the next day is not a battle, it's murder. Do you have anything in the books to prove that he knew what was going to happen before it happened?

Renly has the excuse of self-defense, Stannis doesn't. WTF? Having an army to attack your brother is a self defense, but when someone is ready to fight his brother with an army is murder?

This is legal and the only correct view of Roberts succession, both for Storms End after his rebellion and the Iron Throne after his death. Stannis got cheated out of both.  Agree.

 

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Provide a character who backs you up, don't just say that every character who suggests that Stannis was winning was wrong.

I have seen you do this before, disregard a source because you don't like it, be it a Maester, a relative of Tywin or the History book. You do this without providing an alternate source to back up your opinion.

Textual evidence, how much you might not like it, carries more weight than an unfounded opinion. This is especially true that everyone in the books, from the Crown to Stannis' side to the smallfolk and to the largely impartial Maesters agree that Tywin and Tyrells saved the day. Stannis was winning.

Yes we do. It was right after Joffrey left the field. "During the battle. Your sister sent the Kettleblacks to fetch the king back to the Red Keep, the way I hear it. When the gold cloaks saw him leavin' half of them decided they'd leave with him. Ironhand put himself in their path and tried to order them back to the walls. They say Bywater was blistering them good and almost had 'em ready to turn when someone put an arrow through his neck. He didn't seem so fearsome then, so they dragged him off his horse and killed him."

Sure, if you want to say it was not guaranteed then fine. But until the Tyrells and Tywin showed up Stannis looked the more likely victor.

 

  I saved you all, Tyrion thought. I saved this vile city and all your worthless lives.  

 I trust Tywins family. Just Maesters I dont. (And Petyr) The history book is by a measter. Marywn and Dustin have opened my eyes.

Maesters are not impartial, Tywin demands honors, Cersei can't give any to Tyrion. When does Stannis credit the reinforcements?

"His uncle, it's said. The Imp." 

Stannis ground his teeth. "A dangerous man. I learned that on the Blackwater.
 Why would Stannis say that if victory was in his grasp?

But BBW time line is confusing. Cersei calls back Joff in Sansas last chapter; the chapter after Tyrion sees fighting on the other side of the river, thus I assume it was after. 

:D deal!

 

Because that was only what Renly brought to him to SE.  Tarly and Loras work to ensure that none of Renly's foot joins Stannis.  This is all clearly told to us in the story.

Sallying out and helping your king is help break a siege is holding a castle.  Penrose wasn't told anymore orders as he was still in SE as he cannot just ride out and join Renly for a while when Stannis is camped outside his gates.  The entire argument that Stannis could have still won is fanfic.

Ned wasn't there for around half of Robert's victories.  Simply, Robert is was a great commander and is considered so in universe by people that have served under both him and Stannis as being better.  Moreover, if we are going this route I can just say I don't think Stannis was responsible for any of his more famous victories instead it was all Cressen at the siege.

That doesn't connect at all to what littledragon said as Renly isn't complaining just remembering a story from the siege.

 

 But Tyrell and Tarly did not make up the majority off Renly's army. All the other reachmen and every single stormlander switched sides. They were all calvary? No foot or siege? 

No, it's not. There are plenty of quotes stressing Stannis' possible skill over Renly, thus it's assumptive fic. Penrose never gives any inclination of fighting in that battle.

Ned wasn't there for Summerhall and the Trident. He was there for pretty much every other battle. How many times did Robert say Ned helped him win? It's not the same. There are quotes saying Neds useful, not Cressen. Now if you said Stannis would earn little victors without Melisandre, who would argue?

Remembering incorrectly. Why lie like that? Very immature of Renly. (Cracks me up though)

 

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Yep, he did.  The fact that the highly pro-Stannis biased Cressen that hasn't seen Renly in decades doesn't think so means little.

 

Nope, he didn't. Can you provide quotes for this - "Cressen hasn't seen Renly in decades"?

 

Yes, quite clearly. Had he not taken becoming King seriously he would have given in to Stannis or he would not have amassed the largest military support of any king in the war.

He seemed to take it as seriously, or maybe more so, than any of his contenders as he was actually thinking of the next steps of securing his kingdom. I would say Stannis was less serious about it as he thought that just sitting on the Throne would make him King rather than actually trying to win people on side.

There is more than one way to keep people in line.

 

No one in the Stormlands? Do you even know all the vassals and possibilities to take command 15 years ago? For all we know there was other Baratheons alive who could have done so, or relatives on Roberts Estermont side. The idea that the teenage Stannis was the only person capable of doing it is ridiculous. Yes many would have failed but then some would have done a better job.

Renly wasn't a serious person. It is clear enough from the books. Everything was a game to him and being King was one of his games.

 

Yes, but you have to posess some basic values which Renly lacked.

 

Nope, I don't know all the Stormlords. However, the ones I know are all disloyal bastards. Well, except maybe Estermont and him maybe. But, we know Stannis did it , and we dont know enough about Estermont to guess whether he may or may not have done it.

 

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Nope, he didn't. Can you provide quotes for this - "Cressen hasn't seen Renly in decades"?

 

Renly wasn't a serious person. It is clear enough from the books. Everything was a game to him and being King was one of his games.

 

Yes, but you have to posess some basic values which Renly lacked.

 

Yes he did, he came up an absolutely solid plan of how to secure the crown without risking any of his men. His plan was vastly superior than Stannis' which was basically say he is king and then whine when no one cares. The fact, that Cressen left to Dragonstone when Renly at most around seven with Renly unlikely visiting DS for any reason.

Renly was a serious person. Not being a complete and utter buzzkill (aka Stannis) doesn't mean one isn't serious. Renly took the Lannister threat more serious then either Stannis or Ned. Renly has as strong if not stronger values as Stannis.

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 But Tyrell and Tarly did not make up the majority off Renly's army. All the other reachmen and every single stormlander switched sides. They were all calvary? No foot or siege? 

No, it's not. There are plenty of quotes stressing Stannis' possible skill over Renly, thus it's assumptive fic. Penrose never gives any inclination of fighting in that battle.

Ned wasn't there for Summerhall and the Trident. He was there for pretty much every other battle. How many times did Robert say Ned helped him win? It's not the same. There are quotes saying Neds useful, not Cressen. Now if you said Stannis would earn little victors without Melisandre, who would argue?

Remembering incorrectly. Why lie like that? Very immature of Renly. (Cracks me up though)

 

Loras and Randyll were able to ensure that none of Renly's foot joined Stannis when they got back to Bitterbridge.  Not all of the Reachmen or Stormlords joined Stannis.

Yes it absolutely is.  Renly had Stannis dead to rights if it came to battle with only ridiculous Stannis fanboying saying otherwise.  Seriously, that is apparent with how you are required to exaggerate all over Renly's "mistakes" while ignoring all of Stannis' vastly more mistakes and disadvantages to even attempt to even the score.  Penrose shows himself to be a competent castellan thus is smart enough to realize he should join in the battle.

Ned wasn't present for three of Robert's victories and was under Robert's command for two of his other victories.  Simply, the facts are evident that Robert is a great commander with him being seen as being better than Stannis and with him having a better track record.  There are also quotes saying Robert is better than Stannis yet you wish to ignore them.

What is Renly lying about or remembering incorrectly?  Nothing in that quote has him lying about anything. 

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Loras and Randyll were able to ensure that none of Renly's foot joined Stannis when they got back to Bitterbridge.  Not all of the Reachmen or Stormlords joined Stannis.

Yes it absolutely is.  Renly had Stannis dead to rights if it came to battle with only ridiculous Stannis fanboying saying otherwise.  Seriously, that is apparent with how you are required to exaggerate all over Renly's "mistakes" while ignoring all of Stannis' vastly more mistakes and disadvantages to even attempt to even the score.  Penrose shows himself to be a competent castellan thus is smart enough to realize he should join in the battle.

Ned wasn't present for three of Robert's victories and was under Robert's command for two of his other victories.  Simply, the facts are evident that Robert is a great commander with him being seen as being better than Stannis and with him having a better track record.  There are also quotes saying Robert is better than Stannis yet you wish to ignore them.

What is Renly lying about or remembering incorrectly?  Nothing in that quote has him lying about anything. 

 

  I don't remember that, when do they say that Loras and Randyll made sure none of Renlys men escaped? Do you have a quote? 

  All the reachmen (short of Tyrell/Tarly) and stormolords who joined Renly then joined Stannis.

  I'm not a Stannis fanboy. 

   The sun is a mistake. Leaving your army and supplies is a mistake. (Loras maybe not, fine) They may be miniscule mistakes, but they exist. All these mistakes are made evident by being included in the text.

  Stannis makes one too, he has few men. We never look into his camp or see hear his fake battle plans so we don't know any others.

Penrose being at his back is never made clear, nor is there a hint for him to do anything less then hold Stormsend if sieged. Thus his partaking in battle must be overlooked for the fear of fanfic.

   I never said Stannis was better then Robert. I just said Roberts not really that good :lol: I don't really hold any of the Baratheon boys as elite generals. (Just the dead Starks, Tywin/Tyrion and maybe Dany or Randyll) 

The eunuch smiled a silken smile. "I have such delicious tidings for you all, my lords. Yesterday at dawn our brave Lord Randyll caught Robett Glover outside Duskendale and trapped him against the sea. Losses were heavy on both sides, but in the end our loyal men prevailed. Ser Helman Tallhart is reported dead, with a thousand others. Robett Glover leads the survivors back toward Harrenhal in bloody disarray, little dreaming he will find valiant Ser Gregor and his stalwarts athwart his path."

"Gods be praised!" said Paxter Redwyne. "A great victory for King Joffrey! "

What did Joffrey have to do with it? thought Tyrion.  

The boss doesnt necessarily deserve all the merit. He's mighty with the hammer. I wouldn't wanna go toe to toe. But he's rash and, assumbily short tempered. Cat says Ned was needed to stop Robert from acting rash. Griff says Robert was rash. Ned saves him. Robert thanks him for winning the throne.

How is he not lying?

 

“And if he yields?” Lord Tarly asked.

“Yields?” Lord Rowan laughed. “When Mace Tyrell laid siege to Storm’s End, Stannis ate rats rather than open his gates.”

“Well I remember.” Renly lifted his chin to allow Brienne to fasten his gorget in place. “Near the end, Ser Gawen Wylde and three of his knights tried to steal out a postern gate to surrender. Stannis caught them and ordered them flung from the walls with catapults. I can still see Gawen’s face as they strapped him down. He had been our master-at-arms.”

Lord Rowan appeared puzzled. “No men were hurled from the walls. I would surely remember that.”

“Maester Cressen told Stannis that we might be forced to eat our dead, and there was no gain in flinging away good meat.” Renly pushed back his hair. Brienne bound it with a velvet tie and pulled a padded cap down over his ears, to cushion the weight of his helm. “Thanks to the Onion Knight we were never reduced to dining on corpses, but it was a close thing. Too close for Ser Gawen, who died in his cell.

  

Renly says Stannis ordered  Gawen chucked out a catapult, and it still haunts him

Rowan basically says Jared of house Frey, I name you a liar.

Renlys like, you got me! Dude died in prison , but imagine?

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 But Tyrell and Tarly did not make up the majority off Renly's army. All the other reachmen and every single stormlander switched sides.

 

No they didn't.

"Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . even House Florent, your own wife's brothers and uncles, they will make me king."

 

From that list we know that the Rowans, Hightowers, Oakhearts definitely did not switch sides. It is possible that others didn't as well.

 

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No they didn't.

"Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . even House Florent, your own wife's brothers and uncles, they will make me king."

 

From that list we know that the Rowans, Hightowers, Oakhearts definitely did not switch sides. It is possible that others didn't as well.

 

 

word. I stand corrected

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No they didn't.

"Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly . . . even House Florent, your own wife's brothers and uncles, they will make me king."

 

From that list we know that the Rowans, Hightowers, Oakhearts definitely did not switch sides. It is possible that others didn't as well.

 

 

correct me but did the hightowers even send a force to renly?

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correct me but did the hightowers even send a force to renly?

Most likely. Every one of those other Lords did and in the aftermath of the win at Kings Landing they are rewarded by the crown for their support.

" Lord Tywin was pleased to oblige. Brightwater Keep and all its lands and incomes were granted to Lord Tyrell's second son, Ser Garlan, transforming him into a great lord in the blink of an eye. His elder brother, of course, stood to inherit Highgarden itself. Lesser tracts were granted to Lord Rowan, and set aside for Lord Tarly, Lady Oakheart, Lord Hightower, and other worthies not present."

Just because one of the main branch was not mentioned it is possible that some secondary Hightower was leading their troops or, like with the Dustins in Robbs army, they were being lead by a Hightower vassal. We know the Beesburys are vassals of the Hightowers ands a Beesbury knight is mentioned fighting alongside Tarly.

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I feel as though it was heavily implied by Mel to Stannis that Renly was going to die. Probably saw a vision of Renly's men switching sides to Stannis when Renly died.

Stannis does make some very uncharacteristic moves regarding his soon to come battle with Renly. Stannis offers some very generous terms to Renly possibly hoping that if Renly did join him then he might not die. Stannis positions his men poorly, allowing himself to easily be flanked if a battle did happen. Stannis was not even ready for battle when Renly died, he was asleep.

I really feel as though Mel just told Stannis that Renly would die and he would gain Renly's force. Stannis even mentions how weird it was dreaming about it as it was happening. Mel is just telling Stannis the important points, not every single detail.

Hell, there's a good chance in WINDS that Mel burns Shireen without Stannis knowing about it. I wouldn't put it past Mel to only mention Renly would die but not telling Stannis that she was using a shadow baby assassin to do it.

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  I don't remember that, when do they say that Loras and Randyll made sure none of Renlys men escaped? Do you have a quote?

 

That was the entire operation of Randyll and Loras when they returned to Bitterbridge, simply they arrested or killed any men that might leave to join Stannis.  Check out the wiki's article on Bitterbridge, furthermore its article on BW also lists Stannis as only taking around 16,000 of Renly's van.

"“Perhaps he never reached Bitterbridge. Or perhaps he’s died there. Lord Tarly has seized Renly’s stores and put a great many to the sword; Florents, chiefly."

All the reachmen (short of Tyrell/Tarly) and stormolords who joined Renly then joined Stannis.

Some of them did, but not all of them.

The sun is a mistake. Leaving your army and supplies is a mistake.

The sun is a minor inconvenience that can be waited out if it is so bad.  Renly didn't leave his army, instead he just didn't pointlessly take his entire foot which would have just delayed his response and given Stannis more time to prepare.  Renly's vanguard alone outnumbered Stannis around 4 to 1 there was no need for anymore troops.  Renly isn't lacking supplies as he is in fresh allied territory so he could easily have men ride out and gather supplies if needed.  Not that there was any plans to wait around anyways.

Stannis makes one too, he has few men. We never look into his camp or see hear his fake battle plans so we don't know any others.

Being vastly outnumbered with inferior troops and stuck in enemy territory is vastly worse situation than having the sun in your eyes while as an attacker.  Simply, Stannis had zero chance that is why the shadow baby was required to bail his ass out.

 

Penrose being at his back is never made clear, nor is there a hint for him to do anything less then hold Stormsend if sieged. Thus his partaking in battle must be overlooked for the fear of fanfic.

Storm's End is to Stannis' rear as Renly is obviously not attacking from that front.  Penrose isn't a moron, simply all tactical sense would have him sally out to hit Stannis in the rear to assist in the battle.  If Lord Blackwood was able to assemble a force to sally out while previously unaware of Robb's attack than Penrose could easily do same when having time to prepare. 

 

Much less fanfic than anything supposing Stannis had even a chance.  How we never see or hear of Stannis make/making any plans either thus by your standards Stannis likely had zero tactics and was just planning to sit around until Renly's forces hit him.  You know like how Penrose was just planning to sit around and do nothing to assist his king and liege.

 

 I never said Stannis was better then Robert. I just said Roberts not really that good :lol: I don't really hold any of the Baratheon boys as elite generals. (Just the dead Starks, Tywin/Tyrion and maybe Dany or Randyll) 

If Robert isn't a good general, than Stannis surely isn't thus he doesn't have the benefit of being competent to assist him against Renly's superior forces.

The boss doesnt necessarily deserve all the merit. He's mighty with the hammer. I wouldn't wanna go toe to toe. But he's rash and, assumbily short tempered. Cat says Ned was needed to stop Robert from acting rash. Griff says Robert was rash. Ned saves him. Robert thanks him for winning the throne.

Robert was actually present for his battles unlike Joffrey and was alone for a solid number of them.  Catelyn is obviously biased in favor of Ned.  There is vastly less supporting Ned to be a good general than there is supporting Robert being a good general.  Seriously, name one battle that Ned won alone without Robert or Hoster assisting him. 

Renly says Stannis ordered  Gawen chucked out a catapult, and it still haunts him

Rowan basically says Jared of house Frey, I name you a liar.

Renlys like, you got me! Dude died in prison , but imagine?

Can you even read your own quote?  Renly never says that he was chucked from a catapult, only that was the plan until Cressen advised Stannis to hold him as potential food for later.  Seriously, how about you actually look the entire statement Renly is making before attacking him as the lead up was obviously to how Stannis was willing to consider cannibalism before surrendering. Thus there was absolutely no lie in that tale (unlike Stannis who lies repeatedly about not knowing or just being motivated by duty)

 

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Sullen is trolling you guys and you guys are falling for it lol

 

(his most recent post about if stannis did fight renly it would be suicide is doorect tho)

Oh, I am entirely serious, I assure you.

Inflammatory, sure, trolling, no.

Absolutely inaccurate as far as the bold font. He values his life more than his honor, yes. And the perception of others. However duty is his breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Stannis is the physical embodiment of dutifulness. He holds Storms End until they are bordering on cannibalism. He would have died there had Davos not come. He sails around the realm to attack the Ironborn during the Greyjoy Rebellion and makes a name for himself as a naval commander (against the Iron Fleet I may remind you) at great risk to his own life. And he takes up the kingship out of a sense of duty when it would have been far easier to just give up and support Renly, who has always had an easier time with people.

His naval battle against Victarion is not exactly at great risk for his life, or at very least, not any more than any nobleman fighting anyone else while having the numeric advantage.

Holding a siege for the good part of a year is good for his curriculum as well, but it's not something that's unheard of.

As for his "fleeing", yes he did leave Kings Landing. He believed Cersei was out to kill him after Jon's death and there wasn't anything Stannis believed he could do to stop her. As I mentioned before, I do not believe Stannis thought Robert himself was in immediate danger, and duty does not factor into it. Stannis didn't flee the Blackwater, he was in the rear with the other ships that had not landed yet and after his defeat he retreated. A tactical retreat is not fleeing out of cowardice. Lastly, he left Dragonstone with a small garrison to attend to the Wall's call for help. He in no way whatsoever fled Dragonstone and some people (myself included) believe it is still under his garrison's control. 

An elementary school child could put two and two together and figure out that Robert was in danger had they been in Stannis's shoes. Give the man more credit, he's not a drooling moron. He knew Robert was in danger, he simply didn't care enough to do his duty. (Or was too afraid that Robert would not believe him and get angry at him, which still boils down to desertion and treason)

Also, he absolutely flees Dragonstone. In fact, it's one of his reasons for going to the Wall. If he stays on Dragonstone, than it's only a matter of time before the Crown lands, arrests him, and has executed for high treason.

Finally, if you excuse a tactical retreat, then you have to see the validity in not attacking a host better trained, better equipped, and four times as big as yours. Not to attack Renly wouldn't make him a coward, it'd make him sensible, yet you seem to believe that the Stannis thing to do would be to attack a force vastly superiour to yours and pray for a miracle. He did know what was going to happen here, mate. He knew Renly would be dead by dawn because that's what he planned with Melisandre.

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out of the four men, Stannis is least bad of them.

 

before Clash, Renly seem to not care for Stannis at all. Stannis' fan who hate Renly don't hate him for his orientation , they hate Renly for his lack of respect for not only Stannis, but Renly own niece too. .

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