Paris implications continued

[Fragile Bird]

Please carry on the discussion.  

[Eyron]

I wonder if FNR, Hayyoth and others who believe like them actually live in "multicultural" societies? Do you know what you are talking about, I mean? And I don't mean the US in general, I mean a local area that has a big population from various cultural backgrounds.

I do live in such a society, and I have friends from various places of the world living here, many of who grew up here, and family with African arabic background on one side (second generation, I assume you'd call it). This what I grew up with and I would never want to change or trade it. I love our society, and I want to keep it, multicultural and diverse. The good old days with everyone being white and following the same traditions that some speak of has never existed for me, my good old days were this. I'm not young either, so this is not something that happened in the last 25 years or so.

People fleeing wars, have moved and settled here since WWII. Workers and students have immigrated since the 60's. Before the 1950's we were a poor country, and the reason we were not even poorer was that a big portion of our population had emigrated to the US, fleeing starvation. It works both ways, funny isn't it?

I suppose there's a small window of time that people who like to feel sentimental can point at which would be the 50's. Those were perhaps the good old days? Not much of emigration or immigration (apart from WWII survivors). I would never trade living here now for living here in the 50's though, personally. I don't see any appeal at all.

My country is absolutely affected by the war going on, and I am very aware that there will be a few members of Isis coming here in the influx of refugees, but I would never dream of supporting an apartheid society where hundreds of thousands of people living here are declared not full citizens on some random criteria. Either we are a democracy, or we are not.

[peterbound]

I have similar views, and lived around the world. For long periods of time.

This doesn't change my opinion.

You know want makes diverse communities great? The maintaining of the good things from their former home, and the adoptions of the great things in the community they are joining. Unfortunately that is a difficult concept for the overly conservative Islamic community at large to grasp.

It's the responsibility of the individual to add and adapt to the culture, not rob from it, and make it worse.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

The US has never been a single culturally unified nation.  It has always been a patchwork of different cultures comglomerated in a single federalized State.  Why are we upset about this trend contining to add new peices to our cultural patchwork?

[Hayyoth]

So the eventual plan is for the US to accept 100,000 Syrian refugees annually, a further 10,000 refugees this year but ramping up in the proceeding years. One would think the fact that two of the mass murderers who attacked Paris were Syrian refugees would give pause to re-assess but one would be wrong.

The White House says it won’t let its plans to bring Syrian refugees to the U.S. be derailed by Friday’s terrorist attack in Paris, with a top official insisting Sunday that American authorities know how to weed out potential problems within the refugee community.

Deputy National Security Adviser Ben Rhodes said the administration has a complete plan to both contain the Islamic State overseas and keep its recruited fighters out of the U.S. in a way that France was unable to.

But top members of Congress are skeptical of those plans, pointing to “gaping holes” in American defenses, and said even top Homeland Security officials have admitted the U.S. does not have access to the kinds of records and databases in the Middle East that would make sure immigration officers could screen out terrorists.

The same dudes who gave us the TSA and the Obamacare website assure us that they got this coz they can 'vet' the refugees. The folk coming from a war zone, with no government, no record keeping where we have almost no intelligence assets.

Members of Congress said Mr. Rhodes was dead wrong, and pointed to fears among Homeland Security officials who say they don’t, in fact, have access to the kinds of checks back in Syria that would allow them to vet would-be refugees.

Without access to those databases, and without people on the ground who can walk neighborhoods and verify details, there is no way to back-check a refugee’s story to see whether he is who he says he is. That puts enormous pressure on the in-person interview, conducted by Homeland Security officers.

This has gigantic clusterfuck written all over it. Let's put American lives at risk because feelgoodz. There may well be hundreds of ISIS fighters in Europe who've used the refugee movements as a cover to gain entry, so lets have the same in the US.

Former Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton found herself on the defensive over how she and Mr. Obama missed the rise of the Islamic State. She said the blame lies with Iraq and with Syrian President Bashar Assad.

But all of the Democratic candidates echoed Mr. Obama in refusing to say the U.S. is fighting “radical Islam,” though Mrs. Clinton did say the U.S. was battling “jihadists.”

We have one of the major candidates, the favorite to be our next President, unable to bring herself to even mention the religion/main motivator of our enemy. There may be no hope.

[Hayyoth]

Double Post

[Altherion]

The US has never been a single culturally unified nation.  It has always been a patchwork of different cultures comglomerated in a single federalized State.  Why are we upset about this trend contining to add new peices to our cultural patchwork?

Because prior to this, we generally allowed immigration from cultures which did not have a widespread opinion of us as an incarnation of evil (though we did allow it from places where this was the party line) and a history of attacking us through stealth.

[Mexal]

So the eventual plan is for the US to accept 100,000 Syrian refugees annually, a further 10,000 refugees this year but ramping up in the proceeding years. One would think the fact that two of the mass murderers who attacked Paris were Syrian refugees would give pause to re-assess but one would be wrong.

The same dudes who gave us the TSA and the Obamacare website assure us that they got this coz they can 'vet' the refugees. The folk coming from a war zone, with no government, no record keeping where we have almost no intelligence assets.

This has gigantic clusterfuck written all over it. Let's put American lives at risk because feelgoodz. There may well be hundreds of ISIS fighters in Europe who've used the refugee movements as a cover to gain entry, so lets have the same in the US.

We have one of the major candidates, the favorite to be our next President, unable to bring herself to even mention the religion/main motivator of our enemy. There may be no hope.

A few things.

1. At a minimum, 6 of the terrorists were EU citizens, some of which were French nationals. Seems like the percentage is higher to find a terrorist within your own country than it is among these refugees.

2. In 4+ years of refugees leaving Syria, we've taken in what, 2k? 4k? Something ridiculous small. Why? Because they do extensive checks on each person who passes in. What we say out to the public and what we actually do are two very different things.

3. Will be curious to see how many governors refuse refugees. We're up to what 12 now? 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 John Oliver with a picture perfect response to the Paris attack...

 http://deadline.com/2015/11/john-oliver-paris-attacks-moment-of-premium-cable-profanity-last-week-tonight-hbo-1201624871/

From the segment: “So here is where things stand: As of now we know this attack was carried out by gigantic fucking assholes…Definitely working in service of an ideology of pure ass-hole-ry,” Oliver began.

 “It is important to remember, nothing about what these assholes are trying to do is going to work. France is going to endure and I’ll tell you why. If you are in a war of culture and lifestyle with France, good luck. Go ahead, bring your bankrupt ideology. They’ll bring Jean-Paul Sartre, Edith Piaf, fine wine, Gauloise cigarettes, Camus, Camembert, madeleines, macarons, and the… croquembouche. You just brought a philosophy of rigorous self-abnegation to a pastry fight, my friend. You are fucked,” Oliver said, calling the cone of choux pastry balls strewn with caramel threads “a French freedom tower.”

[The Anti-Targ]

Interesting take:

Double standard in responses to terrorist attacks is condemned

Egypt lit the Giza pyramids on Sunday night with the colours of the flags of both Franceand Russia in solidarity with the victims of Islamic State attacks that killed 129 people in Paris and 224 passengers on a Russian civilian airliner flying from Sharm al-Sheikhto St Petersburg.

Cairo’s effort followed the flood lighting of iconic landmarks in the US, Australia,Mexico, Mumbai and many other cities with the red, white and blue of the French tricolour.

The Egyptian event could also, however, have been seen as a rebuke to the international community for failing to mourn and express solidarity with Russia over its losses and pain.

The shock delivered to western sensibilities by the Paris atrocities and the outpouring of grief and empathy with victims has rekindled feelings in the Middle East, Africa andAsia that a double-standard applies to responses to terrorist attacks.

US president Barack Obama made this all too clear when he dubbed the Paris onslaught an “attack on all humanity” but said nothing about the Beirut bombings the evening before Paris was hit.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/double-standard-in-responses-to-terrorist-attacks-is-condemned-1.2432422

I can't say I completely disagree. An innocent life lost due to terrorism is no more or less tragic based on nationality or location. Is it just more that we (the western developed country we) feel it as being more close to home and so we feel more threatened that this grabs more attention?

An interesting interview I listened to in part on the radio this morning. An expert, whose expert qualifications I didn't hear because I only caught the back half of the interview, said that what ISIS wants is for everyone to pick a side. They don't care if you declare yourself their inveterate enemy because that's what they want, they want polarisation. They want the worlds Muslims to be forced into having to pick a side. And of course the intolerant backlash that is expected from xenophobic groups will help this ISIS goal immensely. So what do you do when ISIS want you to hate them and wants you to want to bomb the shit out of the Middle East, and conduct anti-terror raids on immigrant neighbourhoods, and subject refugees to harsh treatment on the off-chance that there will be terrorists among the refugee groups? This guy also noted that Al Qaeda and ISIS are competing with each other to be the global terrorism leader. So if for nothing other than wanting to assert itself Al Qaeda may well start to carry out more operations.

Apparently there are 40 countries that are funding ISIS, whether that's the rulers/governments or individuals and groups within those countries I'm not clear on. But getting funding from a diversity of sources will make cutting off the funding pretty tricky. 

[Hayyoth]

 John Oliver with a picture perfect response to the Paris attack...

 http://deadline.com/2015/11/john-oliver-paris-attacks-moment-of-premium-cable-profanity-last-week-tonight-hbo-1201624871/

From the segment: “So here is where things stand: As of now we know this attack was carried out by gigantic fucking assholes…Definitely working in service of an ideology of pure ass-hole-ry,” Oliver began.

 “It is important to remember, nothing about what these assholes are trying to do is going to work. France is going to endure and I’ll tell you why. If you are in a war of culture and lifestyle with France, good luck. Go ahead, bring your bankrupt ideology. They’ll bring Jean-Paul Sartre, Edith Piaf, fine wine, Gauloise cigarettes, Camus, Camembert, madeleines, macarons, and the… croquembouche. You just brought a philosophy of rigorous self-abnegation to a pastry fight, my friend. You are fucked,” Oliver said, calling the cone of choux pastry balls strewn with caramel threads “a French freedom tower.”

Notice he couldn't bring himself to say the 'I' word. What a silly and shallow response to a military assault on civilians. ISIS have brave and committed foot soldiers willing to die for Islam we have.....non funny satire. The whole Daily Show shtick thing has been done to death.

A few things.

1. At a minimum, 6 of the terrorists were EU citizens, some of which were French nationals. Seems like the percentage is higher to find a terrorist within your own country than it is among these refugees.

2. In 4+ years of refugees leaving Syria, we've taken in what, 2k? 4k? Something ridiculous small. Why? Because they do extensive checks on each person who passes in. What we say out to the public and what we actually do are two very different things.

3. Will be curious to see how many governors refuse refugees. We're up to what 12 now? 

No they seem determined to hit their quota. When confronted with reality double down on the stupidity, government in action.

 

[First of My Name]

So the eventual plan is for the US to accept 100,000 Syrian refugees annually, a further 10,000 refugees this year but ramping up in the proceeding years. One would think the fact that two of the mass murderers who attacked Paris were Syrian refugees would give pause to re-assess but one would be wrong.

Why? The actions of a few Syrians shouldn't define the entire population of Syria. That would be the same as hating all Germans because of what Hitler did.

Interesting take:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/double-standard-in-responses-to-terrorist-attacks-is-condemned-1.2432422

I can't say I completely disagree. An innocent life lost due to terrorism is no more or less tragic based on nationality or location. Is it just more that we (the western developed country we) feel it as being more close to home and so we feel more threatened that this grabs more attention?

IMO, definitely. We (and I mean we as in western countries) associate more closely with Franse than with the other locations, and also probably have the image of it being safer. We hear stories about unrest in places like Egypt and Beirut far more often, and view it as less of a shock when it happens.

[Mexal]

No they seem determined to hit their quota. When confronted with reality double down on the stupidity, government in action.

Except when actions actually differ from words.  

ETA: Looks like all terrorists might have been European nationals, not Syrian refugees.Things might change but this is the latest from the European Commission. Guess if this proves out to be entirely correct then the whole "Syrian refugees are terrorists in disguise" talk might slow down. Then again, who am I kidding? When are facts allowed to get in the way of a good narrative. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Give me a fucking break. He calls them assholes in the service of an idelogy of pure assholery. You're going to find fault with that because the comedian has a Liberal bent? I'm sorry that there isn't a Conservative satirist that can carry John Oliver's jock, but that's not his fault. 

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Because prior to this, we generally allowed immigration from cultures which did not have a widespread opinion of us as an incarnation of evil (though we did allow it from places where this was the party line) and a history of attacking us through stealth.

And there have always been people saying as you are now that this or that group can not be trusted. Perhaps the oldest and longest lasting such prejudice was against Catholics, who were accused of holding values incompatible with democracy and loyalty to the US, because they would supposedly bend to the authority of the Pope and Roman Catholic Church above all else.

[The Anti-Targ]

Give me a fucking break. He calls them assholes in the service of an idelogy of pure assholery. You're going to find fault with that because the comedian has a Liberal bent? I'm sorry that there isn't a Conservative satirist that can carry John Oliver's jock, but that's not his fault. 

Well, that and the small fact that he was talking only 48 hours after the attack at which time I believe no one had claimed responsibility. So saying the "I" word, was only probably correct at the time, and I would think we mostly don't want our social and media commentators to assume who is responsible when heaping vitrol on those who carried out terror attacks. Perhaps the right-wing media prefers to assume because they are willing to be dismissive on the 1-5% of occasions they guess wrong. "Oh so it wasn't Islamofascists this time? Well that doesn't matter, because it could have been them and Islamofascists deserve all the shit they get anyway. So even though we may have been technically premature in saying who was at fault we were still right to say nasty things about them."

[Mya Stone]

It's so comforting to know that after returning to the board after a prolonged absence that bullshit like Hayyoth is spewing is still spewed here. 

 

As the granddaughter of a Syrian-Lebanese American immigrant whose entire family worked for everything they had, it's attitudes like that that makes me fear for the future. Because by broadly painting the Syrian refugees with the "potential terrorist" brush, you lose sight of humanity. 

[Horza]

@Altherion from the last thread:

Bombing their oil trucks is a good start, although it would be much more efficient to spare the infrastructure and simply agree that nobody is allowed to buy their oil. However, this does not address what is probably a much larger source of support: our so-called allies in the Middle East. NATO member Turkey bombs the Syrian and Iraqi Kurds every time the latter look like they're about to start winning. The Saudis and Qataris at the very least provide private money purportedly for "humanitarian aid" and there have been accusations of more extensive assistance. Even the US itself gives money and materiel to "moderate rebels" who are then quite likely to promptly turn it over to the radicals.

In other words, the principle is correct: ISIS would be nothing without people who are giving them massive amounts of money. I doubt they have the manufacturing capacity to build an automatic weapon, let alone the kinds of vehicles they've demonstrated so far. However, at the moment there is no shortage of well-established groups throwing resources at them.

It's much more easy to smuggle refined crude out of a country than it is to zap every oil convoy, so right from the start the US targeted the refineries and production facilities. ISIS doesn't sell much refined oil abroad anymore because foreign buyers don't want the stuff the remaining refiners make in their Fury Road stills. Those trucks were for the local, captive market, which is where almost all of ISIS's oil revenue comes from (they did have some kind of deal supplying crude to Assad but that might have gone south after Palmyra). ISIS doesn't depend on foreign support, its main sources of revenue come through plunder, graft and taxation (what's the difference, amirite AnCaps?) of the local population, targeting oil transport will damage both their ability to sell product and to tax truckers.

Much more damage could be done if Turkey would allow the YPG to take the last ISIS border crossings, but there's a longer term issue of Kurdish rule in Arab-majority areas. Ideally an opposition faction could sieze Jarablus, but none of them are going to take their attention off Assad, least of all right now. What ISIS profits from isn't the support of groups but the fact that every other faction in the Syrian crisis has greater antipathy for someone else. This is as true of the Saudis and Turkey as it is of Iran and Assad, ISIS is viable for as long as those factions see each other as enemy number one.

[Altherion]

So, some actual honest-to-goodness implications of the attacks: the President of France, François Hollande, has given a speech to the legislature in which he is asking for quite a few things. First, he wants the "state of emergency" extended from three days to three months. This is already a pretty big deal since the French state of emergency hands him a pretty extensive set of powers. However, he didn't stop there: he also wants changes to the French constitution to make it easier to revoke the citizenship of people related to terrorism. He also wants more police, border guards and the like. Finally, he said that he will try to meet with Obama and Putin and try to convince them to cooperate on exterminating the IS.

My French is pretty bad and the sources in English aren't all that clear so it is hard to be sure, but this looks like an attempt at a fairly massive power grab by the French executive -- possibly of the same scale as what happened in the US after 9/11.

[Kalbear]

TA: Looks like all terrorists might have been European nationals, not Syrian refugees.Things might change but this is the latest from the European Commission. Guess if this proves out to be entirely correct then the whole "Syrian refugees are terrorists in disguise" talk might slow down. Then again, who am I kidding? When are facts allowed to get in the way of a good narrative. 

So Hayyoth, are you now totally cool with banning all EU migrants and visitors? I just want to make sure we understand your position of not wanting to help people who are suffering.