Paris implications continued

[Shryke]

Like, let's be real here, your entire premise from the start has been to attack my position that treating minorities well and giving them real opportunities is a good way to keep them from being radicalized:

Working to make sure people aren't alienated and disaffected and lacking in opportunities is a good way to combat the radicalization of people.

with the bigoted position that certain types of people (ie - muslims from the middle-east and africa) should just be barred from immigrating:

 

Or not letting groups prone to radicalization into your country?  Seems like that would be stopping the problem before it even starts.  

Which is of course bigoted because you are defining "groups prone to radicalization" along religious and ethnic lines.

And upon having this pointed out you immediately go to personal attacks, chest thumping and generally ignoring the actual argument in favour of complaining about those damn liberals.

[Biglose]

I was referring to the two groups, Jews and Muslims.

Have there been attempts by radicalized Muslims? Yes. Will there be more? Yes. Is the Muslim-American population a serious problem in the U.S.? I would say no.

And the question is why? And why are their European cousins more dissatisfied? Is it simply that they're followers of Islam and thus naturally predisposed to want to kill westerners?

There are several reason.

The first reason is the american police. That means it is by a long shot harder to life the live of a criminal in the US and stay on the street as for example it is in germany. And of course you are also much faster deported out of the us than germany. (There was a very interesting interview with an Latino activist talking about why the crime rate of latinos in the US is so low.) Better social security in germany plays also a major role here. In the US for example you lose social security if you are conficted of a crime, in germany thats not the case. Not a nice truth but still. And of course the distribution is different, muslim does not equal muslim.

Now, since the worst part is out up front lets go to the less controversial points.

An other major issue is, that we have a lot of mosques which are financed by saudi arabia (or turkey) and preach the most radical course of islam. So that leads to a divide in many young muslims (espacially men), one of the Kofferbombers actully said he could not deal with the the fact that girls just talked to him like they were equal. (Because in the mosques he was told that behavior like that is very sinnful . There are muslim activists like "heroes" who try to counter that but they do not have the numbers and the founding the radicals have. Thats one of the reason why now more and more moderat muslims demand quite strong measures by the state against those mosques. It is important to consider in that regard that actually we did not have a single successful terror attack in germany against germans. Only against american GIs!

So if you ask me if I do think that there is a major threat against what you would call the mainstream, I am not sure. There is at the time a lot of violence between muslim sects (Kurds Vs Salafists for example), And if you remember back at 9/11 those attackers used germany as a base of operation to attack the US.

So aside from those who can't get it in their heads that women have rights and gays are not to be killed and go berserk over that or those who are more or less radicalised former criminals, I do not think there is a real hatred against germany in the german muslim community. Against the US or Jews or other muslims.. Probably more so (I never heard chants onthe streets of gas germans, but gas jews yeah and jew is becoming a curse word in german schools with a lot of muslim immigrants.).

There are peole like todenhöffer who is a german journalist  and a very important voice for political muslims in germany and really anti-american (not so much antisemitic as far as I know) but I think he is important to be mentioned here. There is a solidarisation between the muslim antiamericans and their german counterparts.

So you could even say, we managed to integrate our terrorist if you would be so inclined.

There might be cultural problems espacially due to the immense influx of refugees now, things like treatment of women up to rape, homosexuals and simple bulling behavior, and of course the very basic issues of integration in the work force due to lack of language skills and education (Situation in the shelters horrible and sometimes really bad in muslim Neighborhoods but it is depending on the specific state, Berlin has much more problems with its muslim population than Bavaria so there is a component of political german culture in it as well.) but that has probably more to do with simply the amount and the cultural background and far less to do with (political-) islam.

(Take into consideration that there are about 2-3 times as many muslims in germany than in the US! or about  ten times more in relation to the population size)
 

So simply put: Major problem for germany at the time: cultural clash and secterian violance imported from the conflict in syria and other parts.  On the political terrorist front the existance of saudi financed networks which might be more of a threat to other western countries. (This might even increase as the attitude in other europeen countries (France for example) might turn very strongly against islam. Which in itself poses the a major problem for germany as it might lead to isolation within the europeen community (VERY PROBLEMATIC CONSIDERING GERMAN HISTORY). (It should be mentioned that the german security forces at the time are more or less all bound with handeling the refugee crisis, which again is very bad for security in general) 

While racism is of course a problem (actually an incrasing problem within the refugee crisis) I do not think it actually contributed in any major way. One reason for why I think that is, is that muslims who grow up within a very german surrounding are much more likely to be better integrated. And to be honest a lot of muslim parents nearly get freaked out if their child would be but in a school with many other muslims. The problem is more that the german authorities never gave much of a fuck about integration so they allowed parallel societies and tolerated stuff which they would have never tolerated within the german mainstream society (one part they just did not care, then of course the this ideology of multi-culturalism and so on), kind of goes to the first point I mentioned. So basically rascim is used in germany more as an excuse of the political class to excuse their own apathy, I think.

So basically: Merkels politics regarding the refugees was a major fuck up, which might cause a serious friction within the muslim community in germany. So doing the right thing never fails to fuck you up.

[Mexal]

John Oliver on Syrian refugees.

 

 

[Lyanna Stark]

You are becoming increasingly detached from reality. SAPO are your own counter terrorist/security service. They are not lying about the numbers leaving to fight in Syria and elsewhere. In the UK the nationalist right are nowhere near to matching the threat posed by Islamist terrorism.   

As a point of fact, SÄPO are completely unreliable and incompetent, as was evidenced last week when they raised the terror level alert to 4, got all the newspaper to panic, sent search squads all over the country to find this one bloke, whom lived in a refugee house in the north of the country (with his name on the door) and then it turned out to be false alarm. All this also took them two days. The guy had his name on the door and was registered with all the relevant authorities.

You are talking about this organisation yes? They are currently about the worst possible embarrassment for this country. If you think they are, in any way, shape or form, reliable, you are beyond gullible. They are a joke. On the taxpayers as well, I might add. Reference.

[The guy from the Vale]

As a point of fact, SÄPO are completely unreliable and incompetent, as was evidenced last week when they raised the terror level alert to 4, got all the newspaper to panic, sent search squads all over the country to find this one bloke, whom lived in a refugee house in the north of the country (with his name on the door) and then it turned out to be false alarm. All this also took them two days. The guy had his name on the door and was registered with all the relevant authorities.

You are talking about this organisation yes? They are currently about the worst possible embarrassment for this country. If you think they are, in any way, shape or form, reliable, you are beyond gullible. They are a joke. On the taxpayers as well, I might add. Reference.

Yep.

 

Also, the idea that the UK has no real issues with nationalist terror depends massively on whether or not you consider the IRA a nationalist group or not. I'm tempted to go with the former.

[The Fallen]

There are several reason.

The first reason is the american police. That means it is by a long shot harder to life the live of a criminal in the US and stay on the street as for example it is in germany.  Snip

Between our white supremacists and the contenders for the Republican presidential nomination, there is a lot of anti-Muslim talk happening right now. We'll see what comes of it.

[Tijgy]

The politicians in Belgium are starting to become crazy, really crazy. 

Last sunday the president of the new special parliamentary commission of terrorism said in a talk show: we are going to create some measures so that the investigation on terrorists gets much easier. And yeah, "I am not a lawyer/attorney" (= I do not know what I am actually saying and I am just saying a bunch of BS) "but I am pragmatist" (does this give you any credibility? No, can I have here at least someone who knows anything about criminal procedure). 

Later that day, one of our magistrates comes on tv and says: "we have enough legal measures to take action. we just do not have enough money". I hope they listen to that guy or at least create a commission of people who do know what they are speaking off. Idiots!

And today the leader of the biggest Flemish (and Belgian) parties told he wanted to have a Belgian Patriot Act . (Okay technically he is just the mayor of the biggest city in Flanders but he has a lot of power). Next to the problematic content, it is also a bit ridiculous that the leader of a Flemish nationalist party does want something with the title "Belgian Patriot" while they proclaim to be for Flemish independence and are technically against the "Belgian State"? 

 

[Chaircat Meow]

Yep.

 

Also, the idea that the UK has no real issues with nationalist terror depends massively on whether or not you consider the IRA a nationalist group or not. I'm tempted to go with the former.

I said 'nationalist right.' Most would consider the IRA a left-wing organisation.

Also, I am still going to believe the Swedish intelligence service over commentators on a Fantasy internet board, thanks all the same.

[Biglose]

Between our white supremacists and the contenders for the Republican presidential nomination, there is a lot of anti-Muslim talk happening right now. We'll see what comes of it.

Your muslim population is below 1% of the US population and you take in refugees (if you do) of about 0.005% of your population (who will be checked by more or less all your services).

What kind of real problem could be happening along the way? (Not to mention that the states who are the most against muslims more or less do not have any...)

(Not to mention of course the fact about distribution I mentioned earlier. The Iranian will probaly not join ISIS. And by probably not I mean there is no freaking chance in hell. (Just as a point: The muslims from Iran are also very well integrated in germany. The only crime they get in the media for is the typical white collor/high treason crime, bypassing sanctions for their country and a shitload of money...You know the thing people understand and are never mad about.)

[The guy from the Vale]

And still, in Germany, there were almost 200 people confirmed to be killed by rightwing extremists, with another 750 suspected to be so, in the last 25 years. The numbers for Muslim extremists or left-wingers are far lower. So while the UK may be blessed with a lack of violent rightwing thugs (I rather suspect you just don't want to see them), that's not true for the rest of Europe.

[Lyanna Stark]

I said 'nationalist right.' Most would consider the IRA a left-wing organisation.

Also, I am still going to believe the Swedish intelligence service over commentators on a Fantasy internet board, thanks all the same.

No need to believe me, as I provided you with a link as reference to one of the largest newspapers. It's right there, in writing, by a credible source, which is not me.

[Chaircat Meow]

And still, in Germany, there were almost 200 people confirmed to be killed by rightwing extremists, with another 750 suspected to be so, in the last 25 years. The numbers for Muslim extremists or left-wingers are far lower. So while the UK may be blessed with a lack of violent rightwing thugs (I rather suspect you just don't want to see them), that's not true for the rest of Europe.

Tell me who they are then ...

[The guy from the Vale]

For example, many UK football hooligans are right-wing thugs and racists, as the UK government acknowledges

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

 

No need to believe me, as I provided you with a link as reference to one of the largest newspapers. It's right there, in writing, by a credible source, which is not me.

Aftonbladet is a tabloid newspaper with a garbage reputation, much like a left-leaning Swedish version of the Daily Mail. Calling that paper credible is pretty telling about you. 

More importantly the article doesn't have anything to do with SÄPO's claim about people going to fight in Syria and elsewhere, but is just about them mixing up some guy at an asylum center with a suspected terrorist. Hardly surprising considering the number of people coming in right now (around 1000 per day, for a country with a population the size of North Carolina) whom we have no idea about beyond what they themselves choose to tell, since they often throw away their passports and all other forms of identification before going to the migration office. Plus of course even the partial border controls that are being erected now don't do anything against falsified passports, which are very common. 

 

[Chaircat Meow]

For example, many UK football hooligans are right-wing thugs and racists, as the UK government acknowledges

And you can cite the terrorist outrages they've committed ...

[The guy from the Vale]

...I was talking about a right-wing extremist scene, not terror attacks yet. That said, there are right-wing terrorist groups that were active in the UK until 2007, and still not disbanded. The terror attacks they committed? How about the McGurk's Bar bombing, or the Milltown and Greysteel Massacres, or the Showband and Castlerock killings. At least 800 dead in 40 years from 1966 to 2007. But sure, these were organisations protected by the UK government, so that makes it not better in your eyes, I guess?

[Chaircat Meow]

...I was talking about a right-wing extremist scene, not terror attacks yet. That said, there are right-wing terrorist groups that were active in the UK until 2007, and still not disbanded. The terror attacks they committed? How about the McGurk's Bar bombing, or the Milltown and Greysteel Massacres, or the Showband and Castlerock killings. At least 800 dead in 40 years from 1966 to 2007. But sure, these were organisations protected by the UK government, so that makes it not better in your eyes, I guess?

So that's a no. And no, football hooligans do not constitute a right-wing extremist scene.

The troubles in NI were/are something very specific to that province. It is misleading to use them as an example here, given they don't apply to England/Wales or Scotland (although the IRA sometimes committed atrocities in those countries). They also have nothing to do with Islamic immigration, or any third world immigration. Moreover, loyalist paramilitaries clearly didn't/don't pose a threat to the rest of the UK in the way Islamist groups do, because they were fighting against anti-UK terrorists. So, err, I stand by my statement that the Islamist threat to the UK is real, present and dangerous, while the far-right threat is not.

 

 

[The guy from the Vale]

The UK government disagrees with you about the hooligans. Combat 18 infiltrated them, or at least some of their clubs, but whatever.

So in your opinion, Catholic Northern Irelanders are not part of the UK? Because they suffered a ton under those paramilitaries, no matter their opinion on the IRA. Those paramilitaries were also responsible for a number of racist motivated attacks. So I stand by my claim that you are blind to the right-wing extremism because you don't consider its main victims British.

[Chaircat Meow]

The UK government disagrees with you about the hooligans. Combat 18 infiltrated them, or at least some of their clubs, but whatever.

So in your opinion, Catholic Northern Irelanders are not part of the UK? Because they suffered a ton under those paramilitaries, no matter their opinion on the IRA. Those paramilitaries were also responsible for a number of racist motivated attacks. So I stand by my claim that you are blind to the right-wing extremism because you don't consider its main victims British.

Combat 18 infiltrated them and did what? Anything like the 7/7 bus bombings? No ...

On the second paragraph, no, I didn't say that. Read my previous post.

 

[The guy from the Vale]

7/7 only targeted London just as the Troubles only targeted NI. You just choose to ignore the loyalist paramilitaries because they don't fit your preconceived narrative. As for what Combat18 did, how about attacking entire immigrant neighborhoods?

In essence, that's what you said. Ulstar loyalists fought the IRA, so it's all good, no matter how many innocents or peace actvists like Rosemary Nelson died. That's your position. It still doesn't mean the UK doesn't have a right-wing extremism problem, it's just located outside of England, so you don't really care.