Paris implications continued

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I'm sorry but the death of over 100 westerners is not ample reason to just say fuck it and launch an extensive destruction campaign in the Middle East that will have thousands of innocent casualties. Or is it OK because they are people that just happen to live in the wrong region where a select few fuckheads ruin it for everyone?

 

How are people still not seeing the connection after almost four decades of this shit? This is the type of thinking that terrorists rely on. They want the West dropping bombs on their regions, and the people that live in them. That's why so many Muslims are sympathetic to their cause, because they see the damage the West does and blame them.

Hey, then why dont the people of the Middle East put an end to this? Yes, I see how bombing from a Western coalition would place the blame on them. If the majority of Middle Eastern countrymen are against ISIS and others like them, why dont they stand up and put and end to this nonsense? Why not everytime a Imam preaches killing infidels and waging Jihad, are the not thrown and jail and the key thrown away? Its allowed to happen, they're allowed to increase their numbers and this way of thinking. I agree, at some point it will have to be the leaders of Islam, who dont agree with Jihad, that stand up and do something about it. And here's what I dont understand. I keep hearing that its a small percentage of the religion who preaches Jihad. So why doesn't the overwhelming majority stand up and take these fools out and squash this line of thinking? 

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Hey, then why dont the people of the Middle East put an end to this? Yes, I see how bombing from a Western coalition would place the blame on them. If the majority of Middle Eastern countrymen are against ISIS and others like them, why dont they stand up and put and end to this nonsense? Why not everytime a Imam preaches killing infidels and waging Jihad, are the not thrown and jail and the key thrown away? Its allowed to happen, they're allowed to increase their numbers and this way of thinking. I agree, at some point it will have to be the leaders of Islam, who dont agree with Jihad, that stand up and do something about it. And here's what I dont understand. I keep hearing that its a small percentage of the religion who preaches Jihad. So why doesn't the overwhelming majority stand up and take these fools out and squash this line of thinking? 

Hard to say. I have no idea how to squash the "destroy their cities, it's necessary to kill Middle Easterners indiscriminately" thinking among my fellow Americans and Westerners, so I really can't tell Middle Easterners how to stop some of their fellows from pursuing radical Islamic terrorism.

Ignorance and hatred can be pretty stubborn forces.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

ISIS absolutely loves you. You are proposing exactly what they want, perpetual war and conflict. There are 1 billion Muslims in thew world. How many exactly do you propose to kill in order to get their ISIS's of the world to give up and go home because you are killing too many of their people. They don't care about their people dying. The more the better as far as they are concerned. every Muslim death is a gift to Allah, and every Muslim death is a new recruit from that dead person's family or social circle.

 

I absolutely am not proposing killing innocent Muslims for the sake of killing Muslims. Not at all. I propose taking out any areas they are known to hold. Send a message. Either that, or sealing off every border to any Muslim country until they can handle this problem. Does the majority of Islam want a jihad? If not, it past time they stand up and get rid of the bad apples. Put leaders in place that preach peace. Something needs done aabout it.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

@MichaelSeswathaJordan

Give me a break. This happened here in 2008, where was your righteous anger then ? The men who did that then are freely roaming under national protection of a country the US pumps billions of dollars to run it's terrorism factories. Go to hell with your pacifism bullshit. You have no idea. You think we just want to sit back when this happened to us a long time before Paris and nobody gave a shit back then ? You think 'Hitting Back' wasn't difficult for us ? It wasn't, but fuck it wasn't the right thing to do. It would have only let more people die. So we held back. We didn't hate our own countrymen. And even if the big fish got away we got the rest. So don't sit there and lecture others about it.

 

Give me a break. I have been outraged at this bullshit since I watched the Twin Towers fall because this perverse version of Islam. I feel just as bad about Paris as i do about any and all bombings and attacks of this manner, all throughout the Middle East. The current way of dealing with these attacks dont work. Something needs to change.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I absolutely am not proposing killing innocent Muslims for the sake of killing Muslims. Not at all. I propose taking out any areas they are known to hold. Send a message. Either that, or sealing off every border to any Muslim country until they can handle this problem. Does the majority of Islam want a jihad? If not, it past time they stand up and get rid of the bad apples. Put leaders in place that preach peace. Something needs done aabout it.

MSJ,
 

But your position discounts those "broken eggs" that give rise to further radicals and further violence.  It is my opinion, and the opinion of many others, that what the Daesh are doing is deliberate provocation.  They are losing territory in Syria they are not gaining adherants anymore.  They need us to attack them to make them look like the victims.  So they can display the dead bodies of kids killed in airstrikes to rally the Umma to their self proclaimed Kalifa. 
 

Is doing what your enemy wants you to do ever a good idea?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

A thought about the Governors "refusing" to take Syrian refugees.

Given that States do not have the authority under the Constitution to seal their borders and given that the Federal government has clear authority to control all international borders and ports of entry, how do these Governors who are "refusing" to accept Syrian refugees plan to make good on their refusal?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Look, there's a lot of emotion flying around in the aftermath of the Paris attacks, and understandably so.

One thing is obvious: There is no simple solution to this problem. Just bombing the shit out of the Middle East is not the answer. Neither are never ending surgical strikes that can never defeat the enemy on its own. Heck, even shutting Europe's borders is not an answer in isolation.

So we will have to see where all of this goes.

I have my own views, but that does not mean that these views are a blanket solution to the entire problem. The best minds in the world with a lot more information at their disposal than any internet warrior on a fantasy forum can't even solve this, so let's not kid ourselves that our suggestions are paradigm shifting or the answer that everyone has been looking for all along. They're not.

Personally as a first step, I would like to see a toughening of European attitudes to Islamic terrorism, and a change to a more aggressive attitude in general in dealing with the problem. And if that ruffles some feathers along the way, well, so be it as far as I'm concerned.

But the exact specifics would need teams of experts to devise. What I'm calling for is the political will to implement real solutions. Rather than the apparent political paralysis that seems to grip Europe over things like the migrant crisis and related matters.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

MSJ,
 

But your position discounts those "broken eggs" that give rise to further radicals and further violence.  It is my opinion, and the opinion of many others, that what the Daesh are doing is deliberate provocation.  They are losing territory in Syria they are not gaining adherants anymore.  They need us to attack them to make them look like the victims.  So they can display the dead bodies of kids killed in airstrikes to rally the Umma to their self proclaimed Kalifa. 
 

Is doing what your enemy wants you to do ever a good idea?

Scott,

No its not. I understand that. OK, so when ISIS is taking out, they will cease to exist and we'll all live happily ever after and Jihad will be a word that fades into oblivion? I guess from my original post, that so many of you have taking that to mean I would like to see the Middle East an unhabitable wasteland. No, I said any known areas held by ISIS. I would never want half a continent of innocent people wiped off the face of the map. But, we have never not once sent a strong message to these cowards. And nothing has changed with regards to radical Islam since 9/11. I felt outrage since that day at the way these idiots wage their war. I feel compassion everytime I see innocent life's taking by a suicide bomber, no matter where that be. These tactics being emolyed now will do nothing to end it either. Ultimately, it will be the people of Islam that put an end to it. But, I dont think they have gumption to do a damn thing about it, at all. If they did, this radicalism would be waning and its gaining strength. So what do we do? Allow that every year or two, the crazy nutjobs are gonna strap bombs on themselves and cause loss of life. This line of thinking is just completely irrational to me. Its like so many of you are just OK with it, a part of life that we just have to deal with.

[DanteGabriel]

I feel compassion everytime I see innocent life's taking by a suicide bomber, no matter where that be. 

But it's cool to lay waste to, say, an entire city filled with innocents to get at the jihadis there? Better to die by a proper military strike than by a suicide bomb, eh?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

After 9/11, the United States invaded and occupied a country that had harbored al Qaeda. Then we invaded another entirely irrelevant country, insisting that it was relevant to the "War on Terror." We intervened with airstrikes in the Libyan civil war. We've engage in drone strikes in Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan. The combatant and civilian death tolls from these conflicts already range into the several hundreds of thousands. 

But when will we send a strong message to the cowards?!

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

But it's cool to lay waste to, say, an entire city filled with innocents to get at the jihadis there? Better to die by a proper military strike than by a suicide bomb, eh?

What is your proposal to get the type of attacks to end? Huh? What world do you live in where you think you can subdue an irrational enemy without there being innocent lives taking? Those that dont want to be a part of the crisis in Syria have or are fleeing. There comes a time when real action needs to be taking. And, yes was my comment over the top, maybe. I think it really falls back to whether the people of the Middle East have enough backbone to stand up to these extremists. Which as we've seen in Afghanistan and Iraq, I don't think they do, tbh.

[Chaircat Meow]

It is easy for liberals to scream down the right when they criticize open borders and migrant flows.

Harder when it is the head of the Metropolitan Police doing it.  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/12000332/Europes-porous-borders-increase-terror-risk-head-of-Metropolitan-Police-says.html

[Lyanna Stark]

 

http://www.thelocal.se/20151004/300-swedes-have-left-to-join-extremist

According to this 300 swedes have joined Islamist groups over the last three years, with 115 returning. In the UK we think at least 700 have gone to Syria (and possibly many more, some MPs have estimated 2-3,000) and about 450 have returned. There has been some sort of foiled terrorist plot every month here since June, according to the security services.

It may be that in the course of time the nationalist right begins to organize in the same way as the Islamists but this is not the situation currently.

Congratulations on using SÄPO as a credible source. Nobody in their right mind would consider them believable on anything.  There is a very good reason why SÄPO is a source of mockery in a lot of Swedish popular culture. Granted, they are very good at monitoring our Left party in parliament.

If we instead look at the actual numbers of assaults, buildings set on fires and people shot, the right-wing extremists are still very much in the lead. As stated, that doesn't meant that the Daesh fans are not dangerous, just that so far, they are definitely not the ones causing the most mayhem here. Perhaps something to remember since we had a school shooting by a right-wing extremist only a few weeks ago where children were shot to death. For them, it doesn't matter whether it was organised or not, they died all the same.

 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

After 9/11, the United States invaded and occupied a country that had harbored al Qaeda. Then we invaded another entirely irrelevant country, insisting that it was relevant to the "War on Terror." We intervened with airstrikes in the Libyan civil war. We've engage in drone strikes in Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan. The combatant and civilian death tolls from these conflicts already range into the several hundreds of thousands. 

But when will we send a strong message to the cowards?!

Again, maybe I was wrong, speaking out my ass out of anger. OK i can buy that. Tell me what do you propose to stop this? OK, we can't send a strong enough mmessage by bombing, that dont work. You've convinced me. What is it that you propose? Peace and harmony? Their ideology sure as hell doesn't preach that. What, tell me. I'm so open to seeing this end, that I will welcome any and all suggestions. But, you have none. You just dont want to see innocent lives taking, which is a stark reality of any war. And ISIS sure as hell doesn't care about innocent lives. Tell me, what action do we take here.

[all swedes are racist]

 

That's rich. I am wondering if you'd think it unfair of me to call out your lack of backbone, along with the rest of the US for not rising up and putting a collective stomp on say, inner city gang violence?

 

[baxus]

 

http://www.thelocal.se/20151004/300-swedes-have-left-to-join-extremist

According to this 300 swedes have joined Islamist groups over the last three years, with 115 returning. In the UK we think at least 700 have gone to Syria (and possibly many more, some MPs have estimated 2-3,000) and about 450 have returned. There has been some sort of foiled terrorist plot every month here since June, according to the security services.

It may be that in the course of time the nationalist right begins to organize in the same way as the Islamists but this is not the situation currently.

The weird thing is that those who return from Islamist groups are far more likely to cause trouble than refugees are and still they can go back to their countries of origin with no questions asked.

This pacifist attitude so many carry is naive and the number one reason this bullshit is still going on. I say drop the hammer on these coward and the hell with everyone's feelings. It would go a long way to ending the problem. At some point everyone needs to grow a back bone and make some tough choices, that might not be the prettiest ones.

And I assume you'd be among the first volunteers to go and "drop the hammer"? Or will you be sitting by your computer saluting your government sending thousands of young people to their deaths? We all know what option you'll go with, so at least have the decency to stop this warmongering bullshit you've been spilling on this thread.

I have been on the receiving end of this "dropping the hammer" through absolutely no fault of my own, and I can tell you it's nowhere near as clean-cut as you imagine it, and even my very light version of it was a horrible experience I would not wish on anyone.

But you seem like a spoilt, entitled twat who sees things like that as a video game, so I guess it should not come as a total surprise you'd advocate such moves.

Hey, then why dont the people of the Middle East put an end to this? Yes, I see how bombing from a Western coalition would place the blame on them. If the majority of Middle Eastern countrymen are against ISIS and others like them, why dont they stand up and put and end to this nonsense? Why not everytime a Imam preaches killing infidels and waging Jihad, are the not thrown and jail and the key thrown away? Its allowed to happen, they're allowed to increase their numbers and this way of thinking. I agree, at some point it will have to be the leaders of Islam, who dont agree with Jihad, that stand up and do something about it. And here's what I dont understand. I keep hearing that its a small percentage of the religion who preaches Jihad. So why doesn't the overwhelming majority stand up and take these fools out and squash this line of thinking? 

Are you really this ignorant or are you just trolling?

• Why didn't Los Angeles citizens rise up and put a stop to whole Bloods vs. Crips nonsense?
• Why don't Christians rise up and call their priests to task for all the racist and bigoted venom they've been throwing out there?

Answers to those questions and ones you ask are the same. Believe it or not, Middle Easterners are people just like Westerners, despite some cultural differences.

[Chaircat Meow]

 

Congratulations on using SÄPO as a credible source. Nobody in their right mind would consider them believable on anything.  There is a very good reason why SÄPO is a source of mockery in a lot of Swedish popular culture. Granted, they are very good at monitoring our Left party in parliament.

If we instead look at the actual numbers of assaults, buildings set on fires and people shot, the right-wing extremists are still very much in the lead. As stated, that doesn't meant that the Daesh fans are not dangerous, just that so far, they are definitely not the ones causing the most mayhem here. Perhaps something to remember since we had a school shooting by a right-wing extremist only a few weeks ago where children were shot to death. For them, it doesn't matter whether it was organised or not, they died all the same.

 

You are becoming increasingly detached from reality. SAPO are your own counter terrorist/security service. They are not lying about the numbers leaving to fight in Syria and elsewhere. In the UK the nationalist right are nowhere near to matching the threat posed by Islamist terrorism.   

[DanteGabriel]

What is your proposal to get the type of attacks to end? Huh? What world do you live in where you think you can subdue an irrational enemy without there being innocent lives taking? Those that dont want to be a part of the crisis in Syria have or are fleeing. There comes a time when real action needs to be taking. And, yes was my comment over the top, maybe. I think it really falls back to whether the people of the Middle East have enough backbone to stand up to these extremists. Which as we've seen in Afghanistan and Iraq, I don't think they do, tbh.

If there were manageable solutions someone would have come up with them by now. It would be a generations-long effort to improve conditions all around the Middle East: replace the abusive and backwards despots whose backyards breed these kind of jihadists, like Assad and the House of Saud; implement economic reforms to get more people invested in a stable society rather than be disenfranchised and desperate enough to want to burn everything down; ensure justice and rule of law, if not necessarily democracy, in the region.

It's a pie in the sky set of changes that may well be impossible with current geopolitical realities. But the solution is not to just bomb harder and invade harder until they stop. That has been tried, it hasn't worked. And it's not about the backbone of the locals, as a multitude of other comments pointing out your lazy thinking and moral cowardice have shown.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Baxus,

I'm sure Arizona Fundamentalist Christians will be rising up over this very soon:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/16/christian-pastor-criticizes-paris-terror-attack-victims-for-attending-death-metal-concert/

From the article:

Blog Meeting 

Christian Pastor Steven Anderson spent part of his sermon yesterday telling his congregation that, while he doesn’t condone the actions of the Paris attackers, the concertgoers at the Bataclan theater who were there to listen to the band Eagles of Death Metal sorta had it coming:

[all swedes are racist]

You are becoming increasingly detached from reality. SAPO are your own counter terrorist/security service. They are not lying about the numbers leaving to fight in Syria and elsewhere. In the UK the nationalist right are nowhere near to matching the threat posed by Islamist terrorism.   

hahaha of course not! surely they have absolutely no incentive to do so!