question about Tyrion and Sansa

[purple-eyes]

Right before their wedding (in the church), Tyrion told sansa that she can reject him and choose Lancel. 

How can this work?

Sansa just need to declare that she wanted to marry Lancel in her wedding, then the wedding can be stopped and cancelled?

Did Lancel know about this?

Would he agree to marry sansa?

I am so confused about this part. 

anybody can offer an explanation?

 

 

 

[Roose on the Loose]

If Sansa had said "yea, I want Lancel" then I suspect that Tyrion would have talked to Tywin.  

 But she didn't.  I suspect that Sansa remembered the scene where Lancel participated in joff's cruel games until Tyrion put a stop to them.

Lancel would go along.  He married Gatehouse Amy who wasn't as pretty and came with a much smaller dowry.  

 

[Blackfyre Bastard]

Tyrion didn't want to get married either, so he was looking for a way out.

[Mladen]

This is the question because the misconception roaming around for years:

Tyrion wasn't forced to get married. It was his choice. Unlike in that whitewashing fanfic we call "Game of thrones" on HBO, in the books, Tywin goaded Tyrion into marrying Sansa. The entire conversation between Tyrion on one and Kevan and Tywin on another clearly indicates that Tyrion wasn't being dragged like his bride. The prospect of having one of the most desirable brides in the kingdoms (something Tywin clearly pointed out was far beyond his wildest dreams for Tyrion) with opportunity to become Warden of the North, Lord of Winterfell was enough for him.

So, when Tyrion offered Lancel, it was just a pure old hypocrisy. He knew that whatever Sansa said, Lancel is off table because of his health. It was an empty gesture, one of those things people do to make themselves feel better, but ultimately means nothing.

[AdamJ]

I think Tyrion only said it to make Sansa feel better. I mean, he was right, because she could choose to be married or not (i think ), but we all know how Cersei worked. She just creates the illusion of free choice. But we know what happens if people choose the wrong thing.

[Blackfyre Bastard]

At this point, Tyrion only wants Shae. He takes her into consideration when pondering about his impending wedding.

Sure, Tywin and Kevan sweeten the pill enough that Tyrion accepts to swallow it, but ultimately he was "gently coerced." 

Lancel was still very weak from his wounds, but when Tywin asks Kevan if Lancel could replace Tyrion as groom, Kevan says that he could, provided that the ceremony was brought to him, but he wouldn't be able to consummate.

That's another thing that to me was impressive about Tyrion. He took into consideration Sansa's feelings, first by offering Lancel instead (whether the Lannisters would oblige is another issue,) and ultimately not consummating the wedding until Sansa feels she wants to, contravening his father's wishes orders, although I think that he was laying the ground for an annulment, so he an keep Shae.

[Swordofmorning]

This is the question because the misconception roaming around for years:

Tyrion wasn't forced to get married. It was his choice. Unlike in that whitewashing fanfic we call "Game of thrones" on HBO, in the books, Tywin goaded Tyrion into marrying Sansa. The entire conversation between Tyrion on one and Kevan and Tywin on another clearly indicates that Tyrion wasn't being dragged like his bride. The prospect of having one of the most desirable brides in the kingdoms (something Tywin clearly pointed out was far beyond his wildest dreams for Tyrion) with opportunity to become Warden of the North, Lord of Winterfell was enough for him.

So, when Tyrion offered Lancel, it was just a pure old hypocrisy. He knew that whatever Sansa said, Lancel is off table because of his health. It was an empty gesture, one of those things people do to make themselves feel better, but ultimately means nothing.

Maybe, he thought the gesture would make her feel a little good about him.

Also, whatever people say, IMO, he wanted her and only flinched at the last moment becoz he has some sense of morality.

[Woman of War]

This is the question because the misconception roaming around for years:

Tyrion wasn't forced to get married. It was his choice. Unlike in that whitewashing fanfic we call "Game of thrones" on HBO, in the books, Tywin goaded Tyrion into marrying Sansa. The entire conversation between Tyrion on one and Kevan and Tywin on another clearly indicates that Tyrion wasn't being dragged like his bride. The prospect of having one of the most desirable brides in the kingdoms (something Tywin clearly pointed out was far beyond his wildest dreams for Tyrion) with opportunity to become Warden of the North, Lord of Winterfell was enough for him.

So, when Tyrion offered Lancel, it was just a pure old hypocrisy. He knew that whatever Sansa said, Lancel is off table because of his health. It was an empty gesture, one of those things people do to make themselves feel better, but ultimately means nothing.

in the whole story of Tyrion's and Sansa's wedding Martin applies a very traditionally Christian concept of good and bad: you have to be aware of the negative, to feel desire to do the bad thing in order to be able to consciously decide for the right thing to do, you have to overcome temptation. If you have not been tempted before doing the right thing later does not really count.

Throughout the books Tyrion is presented as someone highly aware of both options, be it with the famous Tommen for Alayaya debate, be it with the use of wildfire, Tyrion is, together with Dany and even more than Jon, the character whose inner thoughts about moral options are most open to us. So we hear clearly that he is indeed tempted of the illusion to be someone, a lord in the North. That he is tempted by the abstract idea of having a charming wife he is convinced could never hope to find. And he is tempted by the real girl Sansa and her beauty. Temptation, lots of temptation, and Tyrion gives in by not putting up all resistance against  the marriage he could have mastered. And, we see again the incompetent coward Tyrion, when it comes to human communication. Not talking to Sansa in advance, like he did in the series, is schoolboy cowardice.

Then, when he offers to step back for Lancel it is too late. Even before, if it had not been him Tywin would for sure have found any Lannister to wed and to bed, i.e. rape, Sansa. Tyrion may want to alleviate the moment but there would have been no way to spare Sansa in the end. Someone would have raped the child in a woman's body. (Apart from that - would Willas not have consummated? Butthis is not a moral consideration Tyrion had any right to make at this moment)

So it is true: Tyrion's redemption form being accomplice to Tywin's plan only starts after the wedding rites have been performed.

Only then he shows courage: by refusing Sansa's abuse during a bedding ceremony, risking serious punishment for offending Joffrey. And of course the not-bedding itself. People who write that Tyrion "deserves no cookies for not raping" have misunderstood the whole complicated and so very elegant mechanics of this chapter.

The wedding night chapter is one of the best written parts of Martin's books. The author manages brilliantly to give us the utter misery of both protagonists, their different way of helplessness and their very personal fears. Obviously the chapter would be much less meaningful without the Tysha tragedy or without knowledge about Sansa's shattered little girl dreams. 

And now we are back to the very Christian motive of redemption through resisting temptation.

there is Tyrion's misery, his longing for love and acceptance from Sansa's side: He realizes there is no way to find it. And yet we are pushed by Martin to see his physical desire, the danger of once again to the horrible because he can, because he has been disappointed. There are two reasons why the author has to undress both Sansa and Tyrion: first their nakedness is a symbol of baring their souls, both presenting themselves with all their vulnerability. The second reason is to add temptation to Tyrion's conflict: he had to physically desire the child-woman (i mean, half the court was by then salivating after Sansa), we have to see his erection to make it abundantly clear that Tyrion steps back despite desiring Sansa,  this time not repeating the Tysha situation, defying his father. So Martin had to find a way to undress Sansa, and the Sansa character offered herself the best motivation: this child so caught up in norms and values of her world tried, once being married, to do her duty, tried to emulate the dutiful wife, offered herself to do what she believed she had to: get naked and prepared for her own abuse, brainwashed. And so Tyrion realized the emormity of the bad deed he was expected to commit, a deed tha would have haunted him for the rest of his life just as much as the Tysha tragedy did.

This chapter is so wonderfully chiselled by the author, every little wheel fitting into the next, a masterpiece of storytelling and characterization

 

 

 

 

 

[Woman of War]

Somehow editing does not allow me to continue a longer post on my ipad.......... How do I scroll within a post while editing?

fixed it but poorly

[Mladen]

At this point, Tyrion only wants Shae. He takes her into consideration when pondering about his impending wedding.

Sure, Tywin and Kevan sweeten the pill enough that Tyrion accepts to swallow it, but ultimately he was "gently coerced." 

Lancel was still very weak from his wounds, but when Tywin asks Kevan if Lancel could replace Tyrion as groom, Kevan says that he could, provided that the ceremony was brought to him, but he wouldn't be able to consummate.

That's another thing that to me was impressive about Tyrion. He took into consideration Sansa's feelings, first by offering Lancel instead (whether the Lannisters would oblige is another issue,) and ultimately not consummating the wedding until Sansa feels she wants to, contravening his father's wishes orders, although I think that he was laying the ground for an annulment, so he an keep Shae.

BOLDED: Which was kinda the whole point of this marriage. That is why Lancel wasn't the viable option, because they needed to get Sansa pregnant ASAP. Which is what Tyrion knew and which is what makes the offer utter BS.

Tyrion wasn't coerced, he had the choice and he chose to marry Sansa. And I will never understand the argument about him not raping Sansa. Shall we behave as if not raping someone is some badge of honor? Is bar really that low? You didn't rape a character = golden star for you?

 

Maybe, he thought the gesture would make her feel a little good about him.

Also, whatever people say, IMO, he wanted her and only flinched at the last moment becoz he has some sense of morality.

True. Let we not forget that he lusted for her, that the prospects of Winterfell did interest him and there were some instances where he did wonder what would happen if he rapes her. I understand that he has some sense of morality, but for the sake of me, I will never, ever understand how not raping someone became the indicator of one's honor.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Somehow editing does not allow me to continue a longer post on my ipad.......... How do I scroll within a post while editing?

fixed it but poorly

Never mind. It is a very good post, content-wise.

[Mladen]

SNIP

Then, when he offers to step back for Lancel it is too late. Even before, if it had not been him Tywin would for sure have found any Lannister to wed and to bed, i.e. rape, Sansa. Tyrion may want to alleviate the moment but there would have been no way to spare Sansa in the end. Someone would have raped the child in a woman's body. (Apart from that - would Willas not have consummated? Butthis is not a moral consideration Tyrion had any right to make at this moment)

So it is true: Tyrion's redemption form being accomplice to Tywin's plan only starts after the wedding rites have been performed.

Only then he shows courage: by refusing Sansa's abuse during a bedding ceremony, risking serious punishment for offending Joffrey. And of course the not-bedding itself. People who write that Tyrion "deserves no cookies for not raping" have misunderstood the whole complicated and so very elegant mechanics of this chapter.

The wedding night chapter is one of the best written parts of Martin's books. The author manages brilliantly to give us the utter misery of both protagonists, their different way of helplessness and their very personal fears. Obviously the chapter would be much less meaningful without the Tysha tragedy or without knowledge about Sansa's shattered little girl dreams. 

SNIP

First, the motive of temptation is rather clear here, but the point remains - we should not judge people based on their decisions not to rape a pretty girl. Furthermore, the entire comparison with Willas is flawed because Sansa wanted to get married to Willas, she dreamed of having his children (and I think she knows what that includes). So, arguing about Willas when discussing rape is flawed in logic. Simply, sex with Tyrion is rape, sex with Willas is not.

Yes, as you have said, we have two absolutely difficult situations but between the adult man who can win everything and the girl who is about to lose everything, I choose her. That doesn't mean I am not aware of the temptations or the fact how important that moment was for Tyrion. It just means that when all is said and done, we should hold Tyrion in a bit higher regard than applauding him for not raping Sansa. Yes, he is Martin's greyest of all grey character and the intricate balance between "black" and "white" is what always draw me to Martin's writing about Tyrion. 

[Woman of War]

First, the motive of temptation is rather clear here, but the point remains - we should not judge people based on their decisions not to rape a pretty girl. Furthermore, the entire comparison with Willas is flawed because Sansa wanted to get married to Willas, she dreamed of having his children (and I think she knows what that includes). So, arguing about Willas when discussing rape is flawed in logic. Simply, sex with Tyrion is rape, sex with Willas is not.

Yes, as you have said, we have two absolutely difficult situations but between the adult man who can win everything and the girl who is about to lose everything, I choose her. That doesn't mean I am not aware of the temptations or the fact how important that moment was for Tyrion. It just means that when all is said and done, we should hold Tyrion in a bit higher regard than applauding him for not raping Sansa. Yes, he is Martin's greyest of all grey character and the intricate balance between "black" and "white" is what always draw me to Martin's writing about Tyrion. 

I do not see why we as readers have to choose here at all.

And I absolutely cannot follow you in the bolded part.

if an adult man has sex with a twelve year old it is always rape or abuse or statuory rape (English is not my native tongue). It does not matter if the child believes she (or he) has to open her (or his) legs for the abuser, believes so for whatever reason. The adult is in the wrong after our morality. It does not matter if the child believes marriage makes the guy entitled or if the guy makes use of the child seeing herself as being in love.

it is , after our morality, totally wrong to  have sex with a child, (free pass if both are only children happily experimenting) 

it is, after Westerosi morality, not immoral, maybe tasteles or a little inconsiderate, to force an  unwilling bride. And that has nothing to do with age, Sansa was, in this world old enough for sex and if Willas had "consummated he would have been in the right here in Westerosi eyes. Just like Tyrion would have been. Sansa in both cases would have "done her duty", meaning she would have allowed the abusers to go through with it because she thinks this is what a lady does. A bit less disgusted maybe in Willas' case though we don't know, he might be some kind of Ramsay. Or he might be as considerate as Tyrion and leave Sansa alone until she is older, hoping she wants him not out of duty but out of desire.

But I see no reason to evaluate Tyrion's behavior differently from Willas, if he had done or precisely not done the same thing. Even an  eight year old can be bribed into looking forward to a wedding ceremony with promises of puppies, castles and a garden. Does that mean the child agrees to sex, pain and dangerous early pregnancies?

Tyrion recognized that it was wrong to force the child, that Sansa was not yet old enough despite Westerosi norms declaring her beddable, that it was wrong to make use of her conviction that consummation was her duty. It would have been wrong to force even a twenty year old but neither Tyrion nor Willas were in the situation to test if older Sansa would have wanted them. There was no older Sansa at this point of the story.

So how can you say that doing the bad deed would be ok for Willas while it was not ok for Tyrion? Because Sansa might have brought herself to keep her eyes open while Willas fucks her? For us both would have been child abuse, in Westeros it was the way marriages often start, too bad.

 

 

[Mladen]

I do not see why we as readers have to choose here at all.

And I absolutely cannot follow you in the bolded part.

So how can you say that doing the bad deed would be ok for Willas while it was not ok for Tyrion? Because Sansa might have brought herself to keep her eyes open while Willas fucks her? For us both would have been child abuse, in Westeros it was the way marriages often start, too bad.

What is not clear? From Sansa's POV it is rather clear that she wants to be married with Willas and that when the time would have come, Willas would have her consent to make little Eddards, Brans and Rickons. That is why we can't equate Willas and Tyrion, because in the first case, he has Sansa's consent, something Tyrion never had. So, Willas wouldn't be raping her, because she would be willing (and perhaps even happy) to do the deed with him.

Yes, for us it would be rape and I agree both cases are not what I would want for my sister or daughter, but the huge difference here is consent, which Tyrion lacks. Unfortunately, in Westeros, adulthood is considered with the first menstruation.

[Woman of War]

What is not clear? From Sansa's POV it is rather clear that she wants to be married with Willas and that when the time would have come, Willas would have her consent to make little Eddards, Brans and Rickons. That is why we can't equate Willas and Tyrion, because in the first case, he has Sansa's consent, something Tyrion never had. So, Willas wouldn't be raping her, because she would be willing (and perhaps even happy) to do the deed with him.

Sansa has never met Willas!!! He might be just as ugly in her eyes as Tyrion or far more disgusting to her nose. He might never wash, have pimples or an ugly way of laughing. He might be someone  who hits his servants or he might eat garlic with smelly cheese all day long. Whatever. Sansa has not met him and we have no idea if he looks like Loras and is as polite as Garlan. That is Sansa's construction to get herself adapted to the idea of Willas. The puppies and the garden help.

Sansa cannot want real Willas, she has never met real Willas, she tries to come to terms with marriage using her fantasy about him. Which of course does not mean that Willas might not be perfecly nice.

And yet nothing can invaliditate the argument that Sansa would still be twelve and Willas is a grown man.

[Mladen]

mistake

[sarah.jenice]

in the whole story of Tyrion's and Sansa's wedding Martin applies a very traditionally Christian concept of good and bad: you have to be aware of the negative, to feel desire to do the bad thing in order to be able to consciously decide for the right thing to do, you have to overcome temptation. If you have not been tempted before doing the right thing later does not really count.

Throughout the books Tyrion is presented as someone highly aware of both options, be it with the famous Tommen for Alayaya debate, be it with the use of wildfire, Tyrion is, together with Dany and even more than Jon, the character whose inner thoughts about moral options are most open to us. So we hear clearly that he is indeed tempted of the illusion to be someone, a lord in the North. That he is tempted by the abstract idea of having a charming wife he is convinced could never hope to find. And he is tempted by the real girl Sansa and her beauty. Temptation, lots of temptation, and Tyrion gives in by not putting up all resistance against  the marriage he could have mastered. And, we see again the incompetent coward Tyrion, when it comes to human communication. Not talking to Sansa in advance, like he did in the series, is schoolboy cowardice.

Then, when he offers to step back for Lancel it is too late. Even before, if it had not been him Tywin would for sure have found any Lannister to wed and to bed, i.e. rape, Sansa. Tyrion may want to alleviate the moment but there would have been no way to spare Sansa in the end. Someone would have raped the child in a woman's body. (Apart from that - would Willas not have consummated? Butthis is not a moral consideration Tyrion had any right to make at this moment)

So it is true: Tyrion's redemption form being accomplice to Tywin's plan only starts after the wedding rites have been performed.

Only then he shows courage: by refusing Sansa's abuse during a bedding ceremony, risking serious punishment for offending Joffrey. And of course the not-bedding itself. People who write that Tyrion "deserves no cookies for not raping" have misunderstood the whole complicated and so very elegant mechanics of this chapter.

The wedding night chapter is one of the best written parts of Martin's books. The author manages brilliantly to give us the utter misery of both protagonists, their different way of helplessness and their very personal fears. Obviously the chapter would be much less meaningful without the Tysha tragedy or without knowledge about Sansa's shattered little girl dreams. 

And now we are back to the very Christian motive of redemption through resisting temptation.

there is Tyrion's misery, his longing for love and acceptance from Sansa's side: He realizes there is no way to find it. And yet we are pushed by Martin to see his physical desire, the danger of once again to the horrible because he can, because he has been disappointed. There are two reasons why the author has to undress both Sansa and Tyrion: first their nakedness is a symbol of baring their souls, both presenting themselves with all their vulnerability. The second reason is to add temptation to Tyrion's conflict: he had to physically desire the child-woman (i mean, half the court was by then salivating after Sansa), we have to see his erection to make it abundantly clear that Tyrion steps back despite desiring Sansa,  this time not repeating the Tysha situation, defying his father. So Martin had to find a way to undress Sansa, and the Sansa character offered herself the best motivation: this child so caught up in norms and values of her world tried, once being married, to do her duty, tried to emulate the dutiful wife, offered herself to do what she believed she had to: get naked and prepared for her own abuse, brainwashed. And so Tyrion realized the emormity of the bad deed he was expected to commit, a deed tha would have haunted him for the rest of his life just as much as the Tysha tragedy did.

This chapter is so wonderfully chiselled by the author, every little wheel fitting into the next, a masterpiece of storytelling and characterization

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, that was beautifully written. Thanks for the insight.

[purple-eyes]

Sansa has never met Willas!!! He might be just as ugly in her eyes as Tyrion or far more disgusting to her nose. He might never wash, have pimples or an ugly way of laughing. He might be someone  who hits his servants or he might eat garlic with smelly cheese all day long. Whatever. Sansa has not met him and we have no idea if he looks like Loras and is as polite as Garlan. That is Sansa's construction to get herself adapted to the idea of Willas. The puppies and the garden help.

Sansa cannot want real Willas, she has never met real Willas, she tries to come to terms with marriage using her fantasy about him. Which of course does not mean that Willas might not be perfecly nice.

And yet nothing can invaliditate the argument that Sansa would still be twelve and Willas is a grown man.

in their world, sansa is of age for marriage. it looks like sansa does want to marry willas. She heard good words about him and he is heir of high garden. Before her wedding she still thought this is for her and willas. She dreamed to have children with him. She said she can make willas love her. It is totally different situation from tyrion. 

 

[Woman of War]

in their world, sansa is of age for marriage. it looks like sansa does want to marry willas. She heard good words about him and he is heir of high garden. Before her wedding she still thought this is for her and willas. She dreamed to have children with him. She said she can make willas love her. It is totally different situation from tyrion. 

 

We can believe this, along with Sansa, until she has met him ,  facilitates thinking

In their world........

There are arguments in favor of not applying our morality on the world of Westeros, of measuring torture of prisoners, executions and slavery only after their values, for the sake of story logic maybe? Death penalty would be ok then, slave prostitutes would be fair game in Essos, damage remunerated to their owner, exploiting slaves  would be ok there while not in Westeros,  burning infidels would be justified, just like pillaging the enemy's villages in wartime. And a king's or even a lord's command can get killed everyone without trial.

But  these books are not written for Westerosi or medieval readers, they are for us. And we modern readers know that abusing children - even if a child for whatever reason agrees to his or her own abuse - is wrong. That it is a crime to force those Syrian and Afghan girls into marriages, that it is even wrong to marry off twelve year old children if they agree, given the choice between a guy they don't want and a guy they don't know. We know all this.

Shall we now proceed and apply Westerosi morals or our own when judging book characters? Shouldn't we realize that this is the dilemma Martin wants us to perceive?

[devilish]

The trick was to get Sansa away from the Tyrell's hands and into Lannister ones. Sansa's next baby would have to be a Lannister. That was what Tywin wanted and that's exactly what he would have gotten by Lancel