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The faceless men


LFesq12

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This is my first post on these forums but I've been following for a while. I just finished GoT for the second time. While rereading Arya, Syrio makes several comments about utilizing other senses as a water dancer. The practice that he has Arya do resembles the training she receives from the faceless men just on a much softer scale. I'm not sure anyone has brought this up before but I would argue that Syrio is actually a faceless man who was trying to get close to the Starks or the court as a whole. Did anyone get this or is it just me reading too far? I would love your thoughts and keep up the great posts!

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I think he was just a good guy, that`s all. I don`t think he was someone who just wanted profit by training Arya. I mean, he supposedly died protecting the Stark girl.  But yeah, being  faceless men requires the ability to lie very well, so he might have been anyone.

 

But why would the faceless men want to get close to the Starks or the court?

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I think he was just a good guy, that`s all. I don`t think he was someone who just wanted profit by training Arya. I mean, he supposedly died protecting the Stark girl.  But yeah, being  faceless men requires the ability to lie very well, so he might have been anyone.

 

But why would the faceless men want to get close to the Starks or the court?

They might have also noticed magic returning into the world, like the Achemists thought it might be Dragons and all Braavosi hate Dragons.

If Jaquen is not acting alone they are also trying to get in the citadel.

I do agree with you he was just a great guy who taught her to see not to look and gave her endless cool motto's.

 

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Honestly think Syrio is what he shows, a Bravosi swordsman, waterdancer, and once First Sword of Bravos.  What is possible, that Syrio was once a trainee and acolyte at the House of Black and White, but washed out before he drank from the cold cup and became a Faceless Man.  I doubt every acolyte becomes a FM, and those who fail, become lesser agents, informants, and/or contacts for the FM across the world.  Arya is placed easily w/o question in the house of a fishmonger, and later, in a theater trope.  While no question the FM have influence, beyond simple fear, how much influence does it take to place someone?  Further, the many FM offer to place Ayra in any house or employment she wished, and appeared ready and able to do so.

Thus, personal theory, the Faceless Men have many contacts and people spead across the world whom once trained at tHoBaW, failed, and were given other paces in the world that serve the FM.  Sryio, w/o any textual evidence, I believe, was once one of those acolytes whom failed, and was trained up to become the First Sword of Bravos.  As for his presence in Kings Landing, that's never been explained well in the text, nor his leaving Bravos for a reason.  He's not one himself, but an informant to any Faceless Man who contacts him.

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It's fairly common in martial training to get trainees to focus on all of their senses, even by blinding them temporarily. Heck, blindfolded is the best way to learn guitar and piano too.

So if we were to get a good look at all of the orders and their training methods, I'll bet we'll find the same thing at the Citadel, the Red Temple, the Unsullied, even when training in the way of the seven sighs.

This doesn't mean ha can't be an FM, but the sensory aspects of both training methods is not that unusual.

 

 

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I've been developing a theory recently based on my re-read of Arya's first chapter in the house of black and white.  Focusing on the descriptions GRRM gives of the statues that are there that supposedly represent "gods" of some sort.  This is what I posted in another thread titled "Him of Many Faces" started by John Thompson.....

"

I came to this thread after listening to Arya's first experience in the house of black and white during my 3rd time through the audio books.  I was struck by the description of the statues of the "Gods" in the hall.  Some of them reminded me of characters we know.

 

"The nearest was a marble woman, 12 feet tall.  Real tears were trickling from her eyes to fill the bowl she cradled in her arms." [Feast For Crows, CH7 all quotes below]    Cersei perhaps?

"... a man with a loin's head seated on a throne carved of ebony"  - Some Lannister King on the Iron Throne

"..a huge horse of bronze and iron reared up on two great legs - Someone or Something we don't know about yet related to Danny and the Dothraki 

"...a great stone face" - Maybe the leader of the Stone Men or the Shrouded Lord  

"a pale infant with a sword" - Gilly's boy called "Monster"

"a shaggy black goat" - Vargo Hoat?

"a hooded man leaning on a staff" - Barriston Selmey?

 

I don't know if there are descriptions of any other statues in other books.  Or should I say I wanted to get this posted while it was fresh in my mind and didn't take the time to look.   

So we know that Blood Raven can see into the past and the future.  If he is using the faceless men somehow, then that could have started at any point in time.  Blood Raven may well be the only living (I use that word loosely when talking of BR) person to know what really happened during the Age of Heroes and the Long Night, and even the time in which our story is now playing out.  As he would have witnessed much of what happened through wierwood.net.  Bran will eventually know as well, but he does not yet.  

Could he not have influenced the creation of the Faceless Men the same way.  Suppose he gives the first faceless man, either before or after the slave revolt, visions of a future calamity and the signs of it's coming.  That person immortalizes the memory of those visions by building statues of them in his great hall.  He then covers up their real function by claiming they are "Gods" or representations of the many faced god.  Who is......many faces......many eyes........and one.....who sees through the many wierwood faces.  Blood Raven.  He is literally the many faced god and he has instructed his agents the faceless men in how to either stop or bring about the ultimate end game that he is working towards or knows about.  Whatever that might be.  

Another possibility is that Bran setup the Faceless Men as a way to counteract Blood Ravens plans after he has taken over BR's tasks and powers.  Having them on Bravos would make sense as there are no trees there, so they could be kept out of BR's view until it is too late.  Of course this assumes that BR and Bran do not end up on the same team.    

Ultimately when it is discovered that the "children" of the King of Westross are actually full blooded Lannisters who will eventually gain the throne, a faceless man is dispatched to Kings Landing with orders to make himself available to become the "Dancing Instructor" of a certain high born lady who will be coming.  Protect her from the Lannisters when they take her father.  Take the face of a criminal and befriend her for the next stage of the mission. Guide her on her journey, and make sure that when the opportunity presents itself, she has the means by which to find her way to the House of Black and White for her final training.  

I may be way out there on this one, or maybe I've missed something. 

"

I have been told (thought I have not found it in the books yet) that Blood Raven says he cannot communicate with people in the past.  So that part might be toast.  But I still think that Bran could possibly have that ability as we have been lead to believe that his powers may exceed those of Blood Raven.  Bran was able to get a reaction he believes out of Ned Stark when he tried to talk to him through wierwood.net, which might suggest that through additional training his powers might give him that ability.  Or the connection might have been though the Children of the Forrest or Bran the Shipwright.  Either way it seems very odd that GRRM would not EVER mention Syrio Forel again.   

It also strikes me as off that Jaqen H'gar, a Faceless Man, was willing to be captured.  It is my guess that had he really been captured he could have gotten away long before he was put into a wagon and sent to the wall.  No, he wanted to be in that wagon, for whatever reason.  We are given no clue as to who he might be there to kill.  There are no deaths significant enough in Kings Landing at this time to justify the cost of hiring a Faceless Man.  In fact he does not seem to be in any big hurry to kill anyone, except those that Arya names.

Regardless of the connection between the Faceless Men (or the lack there of) and anyone of consequence in Westeros, I'm almost convinced that Syrio, Jaqen, and the Kindly Old Man in the House of Black and White are the same person.  He was on a mission to find Arya and guide her to Braavos.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.   

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Honestly think Syrio is what he shows, a Bravosi swordsman, waterdancer, and once First Sword of Bravos.  What is possible, that Syrio was once a trainee and acolyte at the House of Black and White, but washed out before he drank from the cold cup and became a Faceless Man.  I doubt every acolyte becomes a FM, and those who fail, become lesser agents, informants, and/or contacts for the FM across the world.  Arya is placed easily w/o question in the house of a fishmonger, and later, in a theater trope.  While no question the FM have influence, beyond simple fear, how much influence does it take to place someone?  Further, the many FM offer to place Ayra in any house or employment she wished, and appeared ready and able to do so.

Thus, personal theory, the Faceless Men have many contacts and people spead across the world whom once trained at tHoBaW, failed, and were given other paces in the world that serve the FM.  Sryio, w/o any textual evidence, I believe, was once one of those acolytes whom failed, and was trained up to become the First Sword of Bravos.  As for his presence in Kings Landing, that's never been explained well in the text, nor his leaving Bravos for a reason.  He's not one himself, but an informant to any Faceless Man who contacts him.

I believe that this is what will happen when Arya leaves the FM.  She will be advised that may call on her if they need a favor.  Given that, due to who she is, she is likely to have a position of power and influence in Westeros, she would likely be a very valuable contact for them.

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It's fairly common in martial training to get trainees to focus on all of their senses, even by blinding them temporarily. Heck, blindfolded is the best way to learn guitar and piano too.

So if we were to get a good look at all of the orders and their training methods, I'll bet we'll find the same thing at the Citadel, the Red Temple, the Unsullied, even when training in the way of the seven sighs.

This doesn't mean ha can't be an FM, but the sensory aspects of both training methods is not that unusual.

 

 

Most definitely.  Theatre arts and acting classes involve blindfolds as well as a means of heightening other senses. 

Much of Syrio's lessons parallel with BR and Leaf's lessons, as well as pivotal lessons Jon learns over his POVs.

I've been developing a theory recently based on my re-read of Arya's first chapter in the house of black and white.  Focusing on the descriptions GRRM gives of the statues that are there that supposedly represent "gods" of some sort.  This is what I posted in another thread titled "Him of Many Faces" started by John Thompson.....

"

I came to this thread after listening to Arya's first experience in the house of black and white during my 3rd time through the audio books.  I was struck by the description of the statues of the "Gods" in the hall.  Some of them reminded me of characters we know.

 

"The nearest was a marble woman, 12 feet tall.  Real tears were trickling from her eyes to fill the bowl she cradled in her arms." [Feast For Crows, CH7 all quotes below]    Cersei perhaps?

"... a man with a loin's head seated on a throne carved of ebony"  - Some Lannister King on the Iron Throne

"..a huge horse of bronze and iron reared up on two great legs - Someone or Something we don't know about yet related to Danny and the Dothraki 

"...a great stone face" - Maybe the leader of the Stone Men or the Shrouded Lord  

"a pale infant with a sword" - Gilly's boy called "Monster"

"a shaggy black goat" - Vargo Hoat?

"a hooded man leaning on a staff" - Barriston Selmey?

 

I don't know if there are descriptions of any other statues in other books.  Or should I say I wanted to get this posted while it was fresh in my mind and didn't take the time to look.   

So we know that Blood Raven can see into the past and the future.  If he is using the faceless men somehow, then that could have started at any point in time.  Blood Raven may well be the only living (I use that word loosely when talking of BR) person to know what really happened during the Age of Heroes and the Long Night, and even the time in which our story is now playing out.  As he would have witnessed much of what happened through wierwood.net.  Bran will eventually know as well, but he does not yet.  

Could he not have influenced the creation of the Faceless Men the same way.  Suppose he gives the first faceless man, either before or after the slave revolt, visions of a future calamity and the signs of it's coming.  That person immortalizes the memory of those visions by building statues of them in his great hall.  He then covers up their real function by claiming they are "Gods" or representations of the many faced god.  Who is......many faces......many eyes........and one.....who sees through the many wierwood faces.  Blood Raven.  He is literally the many faced god and he has instructed his agents the faceless men in how to either stop or bring about the ultimate end game that he is working towards or knows about.  Whatever that might be.  

Another possibility is that Bran setup the Faceless Men as a way to counteract Blood Ravens plans after he has taken over BR's tasks and powers.  Having them on Bravos would make sense as there are no trees there, so they could be kept out of BR's view until it is too late.  Of course this assumes that BR and Bran do not end up on the same team.    

Ultimately when it is discovered that the "children" of the King of Westross are actually full blooded Lannisters who will eventually gain the throne, a faceless man is dispatched to Kings Landing with orders to make himself available to become the "Dancing Instructor" of a certain high born lady who will be coming.  Protect her from the Lannisters when they take her father.  Take the face of a criminal and befriend her for the next stage of the mission. Guide her on her journey, and make sure that when the opportunity presents itself, she has the means by which to find her way to the House of Black and White for her final training.  

I may be way out there on this one, or maybe I've missed something. 

"

I have been told (thought I have not found it in the books yet) that Blood Raven says he cannot communicate with people in the past.  So that part might be toast.  But I still think that Bran could possibly have that ability as we have been lead to believe that his powers may exceed those of Blood Raven.  Bran was able to get a reaction he believes out of Ned Stark when he tried to talk to him through wierwood.net, which might suggest that through additional training his powers might give him that ability.  Or the connection might have been though the Children of the Forrest or Bran the Shipwright.  Either way it seems very odd that GRRM would not EVER mention Syrio Forel again.   

It also strikes me as off that Jaqen H'gar, a Faceless Man, was willing to be captured.  It is my guess that had he really been captured he could have gotten away long before he was put into a wagon and sent to the wall.  No, he wanted to be in that wagon, for whatever reason.  We are given no clue as to who he might be there to kill.  There are no deaths significant enough in Kings Landing at this time to justify the cost of hiring a Faceless Man.  In fact he does not seem to be in any big hurry to kill anyone, except those that Arya names.

Regardless of the connection between the Faceless Men (or the lack there of) and anyone of consequence in Westeros, I'm almost convinced that Syrio, Jaqen, and the Kindly Old Man in the House of Black and White are the same person.  He was on a mission to find Arya and guide her to Braavos.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.   

"What's past is prologue" - or "there is nothing new under the sun".

Here is a link to an archived thread on the Faceless Men from 2011 wherein much of what is said here has been said already, and then forgotten, somewhat like the knowledge the First Men knew now forgotten in Winterfell.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/50937-faceless-men/&page=1

I have written extensively on these FM - as have others - so you may enjoy how on point your assertions are!

Regarding parallel journeys of the Stark siblings and others, you will enjoy this archived thread from 2012 :

BTW/ I have long contended that the forces of the old gods of the north and the FM of Braavos are connected and that Arya, as is Bran, meet emissaries sent by the godhood to guide them on their journeys.

You may wish to check out my current threads as they develop Bran's growing powers and Bran's purposes when he visits Jon's wolf dream after Bran's last POV in ADwD:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/132143-bran’s-growing-powers-after-his-final-pov-in-adwd/

 

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Here is a link to an archived thread on the Faceless Men from 2011 wherein much of what is said here has been said already, and then forgotten, somewhat like the knowledge the First Men knew now forgotten in Winterfell.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/50937-faceless-men/&page=1

I have written extensively on these FM - as have others - so you may enjoy how on point your assertions are!

Regarding parallel journeys of the Stark siblings and others, you will enjoy this archived thread from 2012 :

 

Thank you for the link.  Very interesting reading.  This thread and several others I found thanks to your link totally ruined my day at work today.  

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On November 17, 2015 at 3:30 PM, hot pies pie said:

i reckon syrio survived his battle with trant, but was captured and secretly kept in the dungeons at kings landing....he will re-emerge as the zombified mountains opponent in cersies trial by combat.

I think it will be a reformed hound who will be the faith's champion. (remember, he's in the salt pans  on the quiet isle digging graves)

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