Jon Snow Leaves the Wall

[Maxxine]

So I'm new to this forum so I don't know if this has already been talked about, but it's something I feel strongly about.

Jon has to leave the Wall right?  I think his "death" allows him to leave the Wall without actually breaking his vows since he actually does die and served until death. I think the the fact that his brothers are the ones to kill him makes this even more of an option. I think Mel will be the the one to resurrect him, but more in the vain of Beric, not Lady Stoneheart. So, he's not a crazy zombie, but maybe just a little different. I won't abandon the Wall completely because he knows about the threat of the Others, but he has to at least be able to leave. He can leave the Wall and go to war with Ramsay (which is not my preference). I would rather he find some way to get to Dany and bring Dany to the Wall to fight the Others (maybe even riding one of the dragons himself).

So that is my hope and maybe even my theory I guess. I know a lot of people like him warging into Ghost, which I'm okay with as long as its only for a chapter or two. But he can't just be an animal forever considering how important of a character he seems to be.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Well, nothing like a near death experience to put things in perspective. I think he'll be pissed and will give zero fucks about his vows.

I totally agree with you about the Ghost warging. There's only so much sniffing of trees I can stomach.

 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

I do not think that GRRM is going to kill Jon, only put him in a coma like Bran was so that he can tap into his potential in a similar fashion.

A zombie Jon  is going to be hard to root for, and big gnarly gashes in your gut and back that never heal is going to be a deal breaker for Daenerys.

Add that to the fact there might not be a Night's Watch left after this. The Wildlings are going to go ape shit after Jon is stabbed and that cold that blows in while it is happening might just be the Other's arrival.

[dornishdame]

 The wildlings outnumber the Night's Watch and those left behind by Stannis. Plus, they have a vested interest in Jon's survival; the agreement Tormund made was with Jon, and it was essentially a pact to suspend hostilities and fight the Others in the war to come. Those that stabbed Jon want the wildlings dead or back on the other side of the Wall. 

And they have a giant. 

[Maxxine]

King Viserys & Dornishdame great points!! I did not even consider the reaction of the wildlings when thinking about the stabbing of Jon. Any chance anyone remembers how many Night's Watch member actually participated in the stabbing? Because I did actually think about how Jon's friends in the Watch would react such as Grenn, Pyp,  Dolorous Edd, & others (I think he sent Edd to another fort, but I can't remember if Pyp & Grenn are still there). Any chance that his friends attempting to avenge Jon would help with the wildling issue. Also I'm not sure how those left by Stannis would react. They may be on the wildling side if the wildings do try avenge Jon as they are Queen's men and Mel has an interest in Jon & she may instruct them to avenge him.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

King Viserys & Dornishdame great points!! I did not even consider the reaction of the wildlings when thinking about the stabbing of Jon. Any chance anyone remembers how many Night's Watch member actually participated in the stabbing? Because I did actually think about how Jon's friends in the Watch would react such as Grenn, Pyp,  Dolorous Edd, & others (I think he sent Edd to another fort, but I can't remember if Pyp & Grenn are still there). Any chance that his friends attempting to avenge Jon would help with the wildling issue. Also I'm not sure how those left by Stannis would react. They may be on the wildling side if the wildings do try avenge Jon as they are Queen's men and Mel has an interest in Jon & she may instruct them to avenge him.

There were four members that actively participated. I do not know if they had other members with them to provide protection afterwards.

It has been said that the "He did not feel the fourth blade" part was not due to Jon not being able to feel the fourth wound but because Jon saw the four attackers and and expected four stabs. But something stopped the fourth blade. Perhaps a giant?

[sarah.jenice]

Well, nothing like a near death experience to put things in perspective. I think he'll be pissed and will give zero fucks about his vows.

I totally agree with you about the Ghost warging. There's only so much sniffing of trees I can stomach.

 

Jon better not feel any continued loyalty to the NW after getting Julius Caesar'ed. "Et tu, Bowen?"

[Bini Bini]

...Jon saw the four attackers and and expected four stabs. But something stopped the fourth blade. Perhaps a giant?

I missed that! So the stabbing was halted by someone or something. I'm gonna have to reread I keep putting it off lol

[Lord Fauntleroy]

 I can only hope that he goes into his berserk rage mode that Jon sometimes has and just kills all of them in a righteous fury as the true Azor Ahai immediately after being reborn.

[marsyao]

So I'm new to this forum so I don't know if this has already been talked about, but it's something I feel strongly about.

Jon has to leave the Wall right?  I think his "death" allows him to leave the Wall without actually breaking his vows since he actually does die and served until death.

Don't understand what you were saying, what is your definition of "death"? Do you mean he leaves the wall as a Wight? Otherwise he either died or he does not, if he dies and not turn to a Wight, then how he leaves the wall as a corpse, if he does not really die, how could that make his vow null and void?

[Maxxine]

Don't understand what you were saying, what is your definition of "death"? Do you mean he leaves the wall as a Wight? Otherwise he either died or he does not, if he dies and not turn to a Wight, then how he leaves the wall as a corpse, if he does not really die, how could that make his vow null and void?

I'm saying he has died and is going to be resurrected by Melisandre. If you're resurrected you have effectively died and been given new life, which would release him from his vows, which state that he would serve until his death.

[marsyao]

I'm saying he has died and is going to be resurrected by Melisandre. If you're resurrected you have effectively died and been given new life, which would release him from his vows, which state that he would serve until his death.

Still do not understand, if he could be resurrected, then he does not die, how could that release him from his vows?

[aryagonnakill#2]

Still do not understand, if he could be resurrected, then he does not die, how could that release him from his vows?

It seems like you are just intentionally being difficult.  This world involves magic, Catlyn died, Beric died, but were both brought back, the same can happen to Jon.

[Lord Lannister]

It seems like you are just intentionally being difficult.  This world involves magic, Catlyn died, Beric died, but were both brought back, the same can happen to Jon.

And neither were the same person.

[aryagonnakill#2]

And neither were the same person.

True, and we don't even really know he is dead.  However, I do think the Varamyr prologue is a good indication of what will happen if he is.  Unlike Beric and Cat, Jons soul would be kept alive and whole while his body was dead.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

True, and we don't even really know he is dead.  However, I do think the Varamyr prologue is a good indication of what will happen if he is.  Unlike Beric and Cat, Jons soul would be kept alive and whole while his body was dead.

I think the point of that chapter is to make the reader fear that is what will happen to Jon.

While I agree that Jon will go into Ghost (Mel has seen it), and perhaps even think his body is dead, I just dont think that he will die. More likely Mel will nurse him back in the ice cells, hiding from the Others, while Jon is in a coma/ in Ghost.

 

I think Coldhands is an example of a person warging an animal and then returning to his body after it being resurrected (though this would be by an Other rather than Rholl'r)

[aryagonnakill#2]

I think the point of that chapter is to make the reader fear that is what will happen to Jon.

While I agree that Jon will go into Ghost (Mel has seen it), and perhaps even think his body is dead, I just dont think that he will die. More likely Mel will nurse him back in the ice cells, hiding from the Others, while Jon is in a coma/ in Ghost.

 

I think Coldhands is an example of a person warging an animal and then returning to his body after it being resurrected (though this would be by an Other rather than Rholl'r)

That would line up with Brans coma vision, "he saw his brother Jon sleeping alone on a cold bed, all memory of warmth fading from him" - not a direct quote.

[marsyao]

And neither were the same person.

No, at least Beric was the same person

[UnmaskedLurker]

No, at least Beric was the same person

No, Beric was not same person -- similar but not the same. Beric states that even after the first resurrection, he was not entirely himself anymore -- and he lost more of himself each time. I don't think such a thing can happen with Jon -- Jon needs to be the real and whole Jon given what appears to be the story arc for that character. So if his body dies, I think Jon avoids the fate of Beric by having warged into Ghost. Then when his body is given new life, he can come back from Ghost without being any "less" of himself -- not that an extended stay in Ghost won't have its own effects.

As to the OP, I think people are forgetting one point -- eventually there won't be a Wall. That Wall is coming a tumbling down. At that point, it is not clear there will be a NW. Once the Others come across into Westeros -- I think everyone is heading South. 

[Nevets]

So I'm new to this forum so I don't know if this has already been talked about, but it's something I feel strongly about.

Jon has to leave the Wall right?  I think his "death" allows him to leave the Wall without actually breaking his vows since he actually does die and served until death. I think the the fact that his brothers are the ones to kill him makes this even more of an option. I think Mel will be the the one to resurrect him, but more in the vain of Beric, not Lady Stoneheart. So, he's not a crazy zombie, but maybe just a little different. I won't abandon the Wall completely because he knows about the threat of the Others, but he has to at least be able to leave. He can leave the Wall and go to war with Ramsay (which is not my preference). I would rather he find some way to get to Dany and bring Dany to the Wall to fight the Others (maybe even riding one of the dragons himself).

So that is my hope and maybe even my theory I guess. I know a lot of people like him warging into Ghost, which I'm okay with as long as its only for a chapter or two. But he can't just be an animal forever considering how important of a character he seems to be.

Jon can leave the Wall so long as he is still carrying out his duties to the NW.  Leaving to fight Ramsay arguably is doing his duty because he is defending the Wall against someone who has threatened the NW.  Sam went to the Citadel, but is still carrying out his duties (becoming a maester for the benefit of the NW).  If Jon goes to get Dany, or anyone else, he is OK unless he has abandoned his duties (i.e., deserted).  I doubt he will go after her, though..  Dany will likely show up in time to fight the Others, if that is still an issue.

What many Jon fans would like is a way for Jon to leave the NW permanently.  They feel that the assassination (attempt?) provides that opportunity ,either because he was betrayed by the NW, or because he "died", and even if resurrected, would be, essentially, a different person, not bound by his vows.  I don't buy either argument.  I think the majority of the NW supports him,or is at least neutral, so no real betrayal; and the death argument doesn't hold water, and would be too much of a technicality for Jon even if it did.