Jon Snow Leaves the Wall

[Light a wight tonight]

There's a scene before the stabbing where Jon, Marsh, and others are under the Wall in a freezer-type storage area that has hams hanging. I like a scenario where he's brought there and returns to life amid "salt and smoke", which is how hams are treated for prerservation. Thus becoming AAR. Mel glamours one of the corpsicles Jon has stored in an ice cell to look like Jon and that's cremated with full ceremony, thus there's no more Lord Commander Jon Snow. 

[Slowpoke Martin]

Beric has died multiple times and it doesn't fell like the first time took that much out of him, but dying like what 6 times will take it's toll.

Cat was dead for days before she was revived, that long of a time will definitely have an effect. She also went mad just before the cut to black.

Jon, on the other hand, IS a warg unlike the 2 other resurrected people we know of. His mind will drift around and NOT just go completely dark like Beric and Cat.

One more thing that I thought about is, both Beric and Cat were resurrected by the "fire" that Thoros initially breathed into Beric. Maester Aemon did remind us that fire consumes but ice preserves. Maybe the power of the wall will not only preserve Jon's body but also his mind if the potential "magic" at the wall does not allow Jon to warg Ghost or anything else.

[dornishdame]

King Viserys & Dornishdame great points!! I did not even consider the reaction of the wildlings when thinking about the stabbing of Jon. Any chance anyone remembers how many Night's Watch member actually participated in the stabbing? Because I did actually think about how Jon's friends in the Watch would react such as Grenn, Pyp,  Dolorous Edd, & others (I think he sent Edd to another fort, but I can't remember if Pyp & Grenn are still there). 

As the fourth knife has already been mentioned, I will pick up on your point about Jon's friends.  He sent them all away :(.  Dolorous Edd was sent to Long Barrow with Iron Emmett and the spearwives; Grenn and Pyp to Eastwatch; Halder and Toad to the Shadow Tower. 

Regarding Varamyr Sixskins, while I think there was a lot of information in the chapter that could indicate what will happen to Jon next, there were two bits that stuck out for me - firstly, this is not set in stone and can be seen as a warning for what will happen, not certainty.  Given that Jon's action in the book ends with the stabbing and him muttering Ghost's name (as Robb did Grey Wind's before he died) we could be left to assume he has warged Ghost or died as we have been left to assume other characters have died.  Secondly, in among all the information we are given about warging, we are told that it is an abomination to warg into another human being. Varamyr tried to do it with Thistle, who fought him.  This piece of information seems not so much about Jon as it is about Bran - who has actually warged another human being in Hodor.  I am not saying Bran is evil or anything, only that the enormity of what he can do, and does, is pointed out to us - along with the fact that he is breaking the unwritten laws of warging. And unlike Varamyr, Bran has not been told that it is an abomination. 

I am not sure that dying and then being resurrected will release Jon from his vows.  He may not want to leave the Watch, in any case.  And his role in the events currently unfolding seems to relate to the fight against the Others.  Whether that is inside or outside the Watch, I do not know. 

[Maxxine]

Jon can leave the Wall so long as he is still carrying out his duties to the NW.  Leaving to fight Ramsay arguably is doing his duty because he is defending the Wall against someone who has threatened the NW.  Sam went to the Citadel, but is still carrying out his duties (becoming a maester for the benefit of the NW).  If Jon goes to get Dany, or anyone else, he is OK unless he has abandoned his duties (i.e., deserted).  I doubt he will go after her, though..  Dany will likely show up in time to fight the Others, if that is still an issue.

What many Jon fans would like is a way for Jon to leave the NW permanently.  They feel that the assassination (attempt?) provides that opportunity ,either because he was betrayed by the NW, or because he "died", and even if resurrected, would be, essentially, a different person, not bound by his vows.  I don't buy either argument.  I think the majority of the NW supports him,or is at least neutral, so no real betrayal; and the death argument doesn't hold water, and would be too much of a technicality for Jon even if it did.

 

I think marching on Winterfell would be the definition of breaking your vows as your duty is to protect the realms of men, not start a way with one of the 7 kingdoms (although I do understand if Ramsay is legitimate threat he may not have a choice). And I'm not necessarily saying he will leave with the intention of finding Dany. I don't think he even knows about the dragons does he? But just him leaving I think in the course of events it would be cool for him to find Dany & both of them come back to defeat the others.

 

And yes I'll admit the whole he died & came back so he's released from his vow is a technicality, but I feel like I seen this kind of technicality used in fiction before so I don't think it's that farfetched. He's just seems like he's too important of a character to just be so far removed from the every other character. If R+L=J he's a king. And if Robb's will is found he's also the King in the North. I just can't believe all that means nothing & he just going to stay at the wall.

[Maxxine]

No, Beric was not same person -- similar but not the same. Beric states that even after the first resurrection, he was not entirely himself anymore -- and he lost more of himself each time. I don't think such a thing can happen with Jon -- Jon needs to be the real and whole Jon given what appears to be the story arc for that character. So if his body dies, I think Jon avoids the fate of Beric by having warged into Ghost. Then when his body is given new life, he can come back from Ghost without being any "less" of himself -- not that an extended stay in Ghost won't have its own effects.

As to the OP, I think people are forgetting one point -- eventually there won't be a Wall. That Wall is coming a tumbling down. At that point, it is not clear there will be a NW. Once the Others come across into Westeros -- I think everyone is heading South. 

I see a lot of people post about the Wall coming down. Is this something that has been hinted at in the text or somewhere else? I know about the Horn of Joramun, but is this only thing or is there something else? Or just speculation? I'm on my 3rd read-through & just started ACOK so if you could point me to something important regarding the Wall coming down I'd appreciate it.

[Nevets]

I think marching on Winterfell would be the definition of breaking your vows as your duty is to protect the realms of men, not start a way with one of the 7 kingdoms (although I do understand if Ramsay is legitimate threat he may not have a choice). And I'm not necessarily saying he will leave with the intention of finding Dany. I don't think he even knows about the dragons does he? But just him leaving I think in the course of events it would be cool for him to find Dany & both of them come back to defeat the others.

 

And yes I'll admit the whole he died & came back so he's released from his vow is a technicality, but I feel like I seen this kind of technicality used in fiction before so I don't think it's that farfetched. He's just seems like he's too important of a character to just be so far removed from the every other character. If R+L=J he's a king. And if Robb's will is found he's also the King in the North. I just can't believe all that means nothing & he just going to stay at the wall.

Jon himself is unsure whether marching on Winterfell is OK which is why he only calls for volunteers.  My feeling is that he has no choice, but a contrary argument can be reasonably made.  Which points out the difficulty of holding to your vows, if you're not sure of their boundaries.  

As for the dying and being released goes, it is a perfectly reasonable argument,, and if he is resurrected I expect him to hear it as a justification for leaving.  I don't think Jon would consider it a valid reason for abandoning his vows, regardless of what anyone else might think.  And Jon's opinion is the one that really matters, at this point.  If he is unwilling to leave, all the justifications in the world won't matter.

[leonardof]

I see a lot of people post about the Wall coming down. Is this something that has been hinted at in the text or somewhere else? I know about the Horn of Joramun, but is this only thing or is there something else? Or just speculation? I'm on my 3rd read-through & just started ACOK so if you could point me to something important regarding the Wall coming down I'd appreciate it.

Quoting myself, "it would be an anticlimax if the Others were simply held back by the Wall while everyone else stayed save south of it." I don't know how, but the Others will probably cross the Wall, or at least stand a good chance of doing so. For the sake of the narrative, I believe it would be even more dramatic if the Others crossed the Wall because some human helped them. Playing the Horn would be a good (bad?) start, even though I'm not 100% sure the horn Mance showed Jon was actually the Horn of Joramun.

[Curled Finger]

Jon has so much in front of him and being LC of NW is going to just hold him back.   I'm hoping that Robb's will offers some noble way for Jon to make his exit.   Though if the NW is obliterated or abandoned entirely by all members, including the several hundred Wildlings who were recently recruited, it doesn't actually serve Jon or his story.   The NW is crucial to this pact, whatever it is.   So is the Wall for that matter.   I believe there are only 2 castles vacant along the Wall, excluding the Night Fort, which was set aside for Stannis.   The Wall has been garrisoned.   I wish I had a better count, but I believe there are upwards to 10,000 people enlisted for this fight against the Others.   If someone has a more exact number I would appreciate the information.   At any rate, this thing extends 300 miles.    10,000 soldiers dedicated to fighting The Others will make a difference.   Perhaps there are more like 100,000.   Either way, the North will assemble a formidable army to fight The Others.  Perhaps that will be the point of Jon's ID reveal, to unify people from all the realm?   

[marsyao]

No, Beric was not same person -- similar but not the same. Beric states that even after the first resurrection, he was not entirely himself anymore -- and he lost more of himself each time. I don't think such a thing can happen with Jon -- Jon needs to be the real and whole Jon given what appears to be the story arc for that character. So if his body dies, I think Jon avoids the fate of Beric by having warged into Ghost. Then when his body is given new life, he can come back from Ghost without being any "less" of himself -- not that an extended stay in Ghost won't have its own effects.

As to the OP, I think people are forgetting one point -- eventually there won't be a Wall. That Wall is coming a tumbling down. At that point, it is not clear there will be a NW. Once the Others come across into Westeros -- I think everyone is heading South. 

No, he still has his own memory, he still looks like him old self, he still identify himself as Beric, so of course he is still himself

[dornishdame]

I think marching on Winterfell would be the definition of breaking your vows as your duty is to protect the realms of men, not start a way with one of the 7 kingdoms (although I do understand if Ramsay is legitimate threat he may not have a choice). And I'm not necessarily saying he will leave with the intention of finding Dany. I don't think he even knows about the dragons does he? But just him leaving I think in the course of events it would be cool for him to find Dany & both of them come back to defeat the others.

Jon's fidelity throughout his arc, whether consciously or not, has been to uphold one particular part of the NW vow - "I am the shield that guards the realms of men."  Leaving aside Jon's determination to rescue fArya, the best way to protect the realms of men is for the north to be united and for Winterfell to work with the Watch.  In AGOT, Ned talks to Catelyn about possibly having to go beyond the wall to deal with Mance Rayder; in ACOK, Qhorin Halfhand speaks of the importance of Winterfell.  At the moment, the Boltons are not working with the Watch. Even if we do not take the Pink Letter into consideration - as it is by no means certain that Ramsay was the author of it - the Boltons are in a precarious position.  People inside Winterfell have started dying in suspicious circumstances; Stannis is marching on them; loyalties of some of the major houses of the north are uncertain.  Northern unity is important for the war ahead, and I think the best way to secure that is to remove the Boltons from Winterfell. Perhaps that is why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell - to ensure northern unity in case the long night returns?

I don't think Dany comes into it at the moment.  I don't have AFFC to hand, but iirc it is in Braavos that Sam and Aemon hear rumors of Dany and her dragons.  I agree that she and her dragons could - no, will - be important in the war against the Others.  Given that dragonglass, essentially frozen dragonfire, can be used against them then the logical next step is to use dragonfire.  

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

There's a scene before the stabbing where Jon, Marsh, and others are under the Wall in a freezer-type storage area that has hams hanging. I like a scenario where he's brought there and returns to life amid "salt and smoke", which is how hams are treated for prerservation. Thus becoming AAR. Mel glamours one of the corpsicles Jon has stored in an ice cell to look like Jon and that's cremated with full ceremony, thus there's no more Lord Commander Jon Snow. 

I love this! 

Aside from the question on whether he is released from his vows by dying before being resurrected, maybe he is persuaded to leave the wall for a time for his own safety - they think he's dead and if they find out he isn't then they will try to kill him again.  He is still technically doing his NW duty if he goes to Winterfell to kick the Boltons' asses and then rally the north against what is coming from beyond the wall.  He can then return at the right time (attack of The Others?) with an army of Northmen with any VS swords they have.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I see a lot of people post about the Wall coming down. Is this something that has been hinted at in the text or somewhere else? I know about the Horn of Joramun, but is this only thing or is there something else? Or just speculation? I'm on my 3rd read-through & just started ACOK so if you could point me to something important regarding the Wall coming down I'd appreciate it.

Nothing specific I can think of other than the Horn -- but I think that the "logic" of storytelling demands it as well. An author does not build a giant Wall -- put the main antagonists behind that Wall -- unable to cross it -- mention that there is a magical Horn that can bring down the Wall -- just to have the Wall remain in place the entire series. To me, failing to bring down the Wall would be a missed opportunity in storytelling that GRRM could not possibly resist. I think the cliche of calling it "Chekhov's Wall" is appropriate here. That Wall simply cannot exist in that form unless at some point it comes down. Certain basic rules of storytelling remain true even for GRRM.

No, he still has his own memory, he still looks like him old self, he still identify himself as Beric, so of course he is still himself

That is not what Beric says. He says that each time he is resurrected, he loses more memories -- is less of himself. What, you think it is a "one freebee" rule here? Where the first resurrection has no consequences but only the later ones do? That makes absolutely no sense. Even after only one resurrection, Beric was no longer 100% himself -- he was UnBeric. He just became increasingly less of himself and more UnBeric with each additional resurrection. The text makes this issue clear -- I really don't know where you get the idea that Beric lost nothing the first time he was resurrected.

And retaining some of his old self and calling himself Beric is irrelevant. Of course part of his old self remained -- I never argued otherwise -- it is just that not all of himself remained. That is what is critical -- and that is what I don't think can happen with Jon because he needs to have all of his memories -- all of his "soul" (if you will) -- and be fully human for the remainder of his story arc to really be about the conflict inherent in the decision making process of people living the human condition. And this issue is at the heart of what I think GRRM is interested in -- so I doubt he will undermine that theme by having Jon come back as something less than 100% Jon.

[Maxxine]

Jon himself is unsure whether marching on Winterfell is OK which is why he only calls for volunteers.  My feeling is that he has no choice, but a contrary argument can be reasonably made.  Which points out the difficulty of holding to your vows, if you're not sure of their boundaries.  

As for the dying and being released goes, it is a perfectly reasonable argument,, and if he is resurrected I expect him to hear it as a justification for leaving.  I don't think Jon would consider it a valid reason for abandoning his vows, regardless of what anyone else might think.  And Jon's opinion is the one that really matters, at this point.  If he is unwilling to leave, all the justifications in the world won't matter.

Yeah Jon is definitely the one obstacle to this technicality of dying and being resurrected working out. He has a little too much Ned in him and one of the things that kind of irritates me about him. He may too worried about doing what's "right" as opposed to what is best for everyone involved. But, he has rationalized somethings in his head so far such as trying to save "Arya" and marching on Winterfell, which could lead to him rationalizing "I have died so I am released from my vows." I could see it going either way.

[Maxxine]

Nothing specific I can think of other than the Horn -- but I think that the "logic" of storytelling demands it as well. An author does not build a giant Wall -- put the main antagonists behind that Wall -- unable to cross it -- mention that there is a magical Horn that can bring down the Wall -- just to have the Wall remain in place the entire series. To me, failing to bring down the Wall would be a missed opportunity in storytelling that GRRM could not possibly resist. I think the cliche of calling it "Chekhov's Wall" is appropriate here. That Wall simply cannot exist in that form unless at some point it comes down. Certain basic rules of storytelling remain true even for GRRM.

This is a good point. I didn't think about like this. But now the whole Horn thing becomes confusing.  Why would the wildlings want it? They can't use it because they know the Wall is the only protection from the Others and that is who they're trying get away from. Getting south does not help if you're going bring down the one thing that can keep the Others out. Maybe they just want it so the Others can't get it?

[Maxxine]

Nothing specific I can think of other than the Horn -- but I think that the "logic" of storytelling demands it as well. An author does not build a giant Wall -- put the main antagonists behind that Wall -- unable to cross it -- mention that there is a magical Horn that can bring down the Wall -- just to have the Wall remain in place the entire series. To me, failing to bring down the Wall would be a missed opportunity in storytelling that GRRM could not possibly resist. I think the cliche of calling it "Chekhov's Wall" is appropriate here. That Wall simply cannot exist in that form unless at some point it comes down. Certain basic rules of storytelling remain true even for GRRM.

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

This is a good point. I didn't think about like this. But now the whole Horn thing becomes confusing.  Why would the wildlings want it? They can't use it because they know the Wall is the only protection from the Others and that is who they're trying get away from. Getting south does not help if you're going bring down the one thing that can keep the Others out. Maybe they just want it so the Others can't get it?

I think that is basically it. Mance essentially tells Jon as much. The plan seems to be the following -- bring the Horn to the Wall and threaten to blow the Horn if the wildings are not allowed to cross. If the wildings are not let across, blow the horn to bring down the Wall and get across. Sure, it will let the Others in, but better to have room to move South with the Others following them then to be trapped north of the Wall with the Others coming after them. And if they are allowed south of the Wall, they would not blow the Horn. So of course the wildings would want the Horn, and Mance basically tells Jon the strategy for how the Horn is of use to them. And then Mel destroys what Mance claimed was the Horn.

But I don't think Mance had the real Horn -- and I suspect Mance knew as much. I think his strategy outlined to Jon was a "bluff" to ensure that Jon would help the wildings get south of the Wall. But of course having the real Horn would be even better, so I am sure Mance wanted the real Horn -- he just could not find it.

I think (IIRC) that there is speculation that Sam has the real Horn. Again, going from memory (which is rather poor given my advancing age -- lol) I think the Horn he has is cracked and won't make a sound when blown. But if Sam manages to repair the Horn and blows it without knowing the consequences -- look out below.

[Protagoras]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death...I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

If Jon is resurrected, he is not dead anymore. Therefore his watch is not over. He will break his oath if he leaves permanently. "Nights to come" means "all nights in the future".

Sure, some might think those rules doesn´t mean much and should be broken for the greater good, yada, yada. That doesn´t make them any less broken. 

[Protagoras]

It should also very much be pointed out that "protect the realms of men" is very much an opinion. Areas about "Good" and "Evil" ie, morality, are nothing but subjective. I very much doubt the founders intended that a Lord Commander had the authority to decide that, say house X was "evil" and then try to "protect" the realm from it. It sounds very much as a personal ambition in spite of the original message and only possible by some creative rulebending. 

Indeed, the brothers (have forgotten their names) who warred against each other between the castles can all claim this in their defense. In fact, it will be impossible to actually break the rules with this kind of bendable logic. 

The Watch is a glorified prison. The intent must have been to keep it that way, hence the "end until my death part". The Watch is meant to take no part in the affairs of the realm so it can focus on larger threats and if they don´t, well there might not be a Watch afterwards. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death...I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

If Jon is resurrected, he is not dead anymore. Therefore his watch is not over. He will break his oath if he leaves permanently. "Nights to come" means "all nights in the future".

Sure, some might think those rules doesn´t mean much and should be broken for the greater good, yada, yada. That doesn´t make them any less broken. 

The Night's Watch has released people form the oath before, and I think you can argue that being stabbed by the other members would be considered a harsh version of that.

[UnmaskedLurker]

It should also very much be pointed out that "protect the realms of men" is very much an opinion. Areas about "Good" and "Evil" ie, morality, are nothing but subjective. I very much doubt the founders intended that a Lord Commander had the authority to decide that, say house X was "evil" and then try to "protect" the realm from it. It sounds very much as a personal ambition in spite of the original message and only possible by some creative rulebending. 

Indeed, the brothers (have forgotten their names) who warred against each other between the castles can all claim this in their defense. In fact, it will be impossible to actually break the rules with this kind of bendable logic. 

The Watch is a glorified prison. The intent must have been to keep it that way, hence the "end until my death part". The Watch is meant to take no part in the affairs of the realm so it can focus on larger threats and if they don´t, well there might not be a Watch afterwards. 

But if Ramsey is planning an attack on the Wall itself, doesn't the NW have a right to defend themselves from Ramsey?