The Heresy essays: X+Y=J : Arthur + Lyanna=J

[SFDanny]

Yes--but that same Appendix page (at least in my edition) lists Jon as Ned's son.

And a few pages earlier lists Joff, Myrcella, and Tommen as Robert's children. Even though the previous text has proven that completely untrue (as per Cersei).

So, I can't see how an appendix listing rules things out categorically. Lyanna might very well have died in the tower. But--like Jon is probably not Ned's son and Cersei's children are definitely not Robert's--seems like there's still the option that the listing is an assumption. Not a fact.

Everything in the text can be changed not just in the appendix. So, yes, this can change like everything else. Martin just has to give an explanation why the change takes place. Until then, one should give evidence why one thinks this particular part of the text is misleading or will change upon further revelations. I don't see any reason to think this part of the text is wrong.

[wolfmaid7]

Ok I'm typing in the dark here, I can't even see the posts before so bear with me.I think we have to be honest and while debating stay focused and try to do so without bias.Call a spade a spade we will be better off for it.

If you say to me there's no romantic connection  between Arthur and Lya I agree. I don't see anything whereby we could even begin to debate that other than its possible. This alone is a nail in the coffin for me.

 

If you tell me you dismiss it because it has no political implications or Ned's reasons need to be X.You lose me.As ive shown in the Arryn murder and i'll drop in Joff's murder  things aren't as they appear a lot of time s

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Ok I'm typing in the dark here, I can't even see the posts before so bear with me.I think we have to be honest and while debating stay focused and try to do so without bias.Call a spade a spade we will be better off for it.

If you say to me there's no romantic connection  between Arthur and Lya I agree. I don't see anything whereby we could even begin to debate that other than its possible. This alone is a nail in the coffin for me.

Scratch "romantic". No personal connection of any kind. Like, say, one even mentioning another. Looking at another. Acknowledging the other one's existence in any way that we know of. Lyanna asking Arthur for a recipe for a lemon cake. Arthur sending her a hilarious dragon meme. Anything.

Nope.

[Sly Wren]

Everything in the text can be changed not just in the appendix. So, yes, this can change like everything else. Martin just has to give an explanation why the change takes place. Until then, one should give evidence why one thinks this particular part of the text is misleading or will change upon further revelations. I don't see any reason to think this part of the text is wrong.

Well, the non-dream-oriented description of her death location is this:

Quote: "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." Game, Eddard I.

So, facts are that she dies in a room that smells of blood and roses, that "they" are there, and so is Howland. There's a LOT of gaps in that. Martin's made readers pay at times (or at least made me pay) for not being wary of how they fill gaps.

Why might this make one doubt that Lyanna's in a watchtower out in the middle of the red mountains? Well, the roses, for one thing. I don't know how much time Martin spends gardening, if her room smells of roses, that would mean they are at least fresh-ish. And replenished. Unless the rose crown is still with her and made of amazing roses that hold their scent for well over a year. . .

And of course the question of the "they."

Throw in all the practical concerns that have been slogged through multiple times in discussions of the tower. . . there are at least some very good reasons to keep open the door that Lyanna didn't die in that tower. Are they definitive? No. But they are viable reasons to question. At least for now.

[wolfmaid7]

Scratch "romantic". No personal connection of any kind. Like, say, one even mentioning another. Looking at another. Acknowledging the other one's existence in any way that we know of. Lyanna asking Arthur for a recipe for a lemon cake. Arthur sending her a hilarious dragon meme. Anything.

Nope.

I'm not even going to front that.As I said nothing that ive seen with respect to some kind of contact whereby we could even debate if a romance took place.That is a ttangible, or in this case lack of a tangible for me.

[wolfmaid7]

Well, the non-dream-oriented description of her death location is this:

Quote: "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." Game, Eddard I.

So, facts are that she dies in a room that smells of blood and roses, that "they" are there, and so is Howland. There's a LOT of gaps in that. Martin's made readers pay at times (or at least made me pay) for not being wary of how they fill gaps.

Why might this make one doubt that Lyanna's in a watchtower out in the middle of the red mountains? Well, the roses, for one thing. I don't know how much time Martin spends gardening, if her room smells of roses, that would mean they are at least fresh-ish. And replenished. Unless the rose crown is still with her and made of amazing roses that hold their scent for well over a year. . .

And of course the question of the "they."

Throw in all the practical concerns that have been slogged through multiple times in discussions of the tower. . . there are at least some very good reasons to keep open the door that Lyanna didn't die in that tower. Are they definitive? No. But they are viable reasons to question. At least for now.

True, true.

[SFDanny]

Well, the non-dream-oriented description of her death location is this:

Quote: "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." Game, Eddard I.

So, facts are that she dies in a room that smells of blood and roses, that "they" are there, and so is Howland. There's a LOT of gaps in that. Martin's made readers pay at times (or at least made me pay) for not being wary of how they fill gaps.

Why might this make one doubt that Lyanna's in a watchtower out in the middle of the red mountains? Well, the roses, for one thing. I don't know how much time Martin spends gardening, if her room smells of roses, that would mean they are at least fresh-ish. And replenished. Unless the rose crown is still with her and made of amazing roses that hold their scent for well over a year. . .

And of course the question of the "they."

Throw in all the practical concerns that have been slogged through multiple times in discussions of the tower. . . there are at least some very good reasons to keep open the door that Lyanna didn't die in that tower. Are they definitive? No. But they are viable reasons to question. At least for now.

I'm not sure what in having roses in the room would be evidence of the room not being at the tower, or why you think having at least one other person than Howland Reed find Ned with with Lyanna's body suggests another location. Do we know roses are not able to grow in the Prince's Pass? Do we know the Tower of Joy is so small it can't fit another person? Perhaps I missed something, but this doesn't seem like evidence that points to Lyanna dying someplace else than what's in the text. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ok I'm typing in the dark here, I can't even see the posts before so bear with me.I think we have to be honest and while debating stay focused and try to do so without bias.Call a spade a spade we will be better off for it.

If you say to me there's no romantic connection  between Arthur and Lya I agree. I don't see anything whereby we could even begin to debate that other than its possible. This alone is a nail in the coffin for me.

 

If you tell me you dismiss it because it has no political implications or Ned's reasons need to be X.You lose me.As ive shown in the Arryn murder and i'll drop in Joff's murder  things aren't as they appear a lot of time s

To be fair, there were plenty of hints regarding Arryn's murder... You just had to know where to look for them. I didn't get them on my first read.. but when I knew who had done it, and reread the books, the hints where right there to see.

Joff's murder is quite a different a different category. We're told quite quickly after his death that LF was involved. It was not a mystery that was solved only after three books.

 

Well, the non-dream-oriented description of her death location is this:

Quote: "I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." Game, Eddard I.

So, facts are that she dies in a room that smells of blood and roses, that "they" are there, and so is Howland. There's a LOT of gaps in that. Martin's made readers pay at times (or at least made me pay) for not being wary of how they fill gaps.

Why might this make one doubt that Lyanna's in a watchtower out in the middle of the red mountains? Well, the roses, for one thing. I don't know how much time Martin spends gardening, if her room smells of roses, that would mean they are at least fresh-ish. And replenished. Unless the rose crown is still with her and made of amazing roses that hold their scent for well over a year. . .

And of course the question of the "they."

Throw in all the practical concerns that have been slogged through multiple times in discussions of the tower. . . there are at least some very good reasons to keep open the door that Lyanna didn't die in that tower. Are they definitive? No. But they are viable reasons to question. At least for now.

Neither one of those things (presence of the smell of roses, presence of "they") indicates the location. We have three things indicating where Lyanna died (the app, the appendix, and the dream), and nothing indicating another location.

[Taenqyrhae]

I see a possible parallel between the fight at the ToJ between Ned and Arthur and the fight between Jon and Qhorin.  Qhorin was a superb fighter who sacrificed himself to a younger and lesser warrior so he could appear to be an oathbreaker, for the greater good of the realm.  Arthur was a superb fighter who lost to a lesser warrior who would go on to pretend to have done something dishonorable for the greater good of the realm.  Maybe Arthur sacrificed himself, a sort of suicide by Stark, to preserve his honor and give and alternative explanation for the events of the Tower of Joy and at Starfall afterwards.

[Sly Wren]

I'm not sure what in having roses in the room would be evidence of the room not being at the tower, or why you think having at least one other person than Howland Reed find Ned with with Lyanna's body suggests another location. Do we know roses are not able to grow in the Prince's Pass? 

No--don't know. Do know that the Red Mountains are know for dry valleys and sandstone cliffs. That someone from the World Book (a Hightower?) said they were green until painted red with blood. So--not a lot of voluntary vegetation, apparently. Might they cultivate roses at an abandoned tower? Sure. But seems like there really might be other priorities.

My point was mostly that those are the only un-dreamed facts we get. NOT a lot to go on. With that many gaps, anything outside of the text that says location, without a clear tie in the text--seems like it's not unreasonable to scratch your head. At least a bit.

 Do we know the Tower of Joy is so small it can't fit another person? Perhaps I missed something, but this doesn't seem like evidence that points to Lyanna dying someplace else than what's in the text. 

Oh, no. Sorry. I was alluding to the question of who the "they" are. I know it gets debated that people could have been brought out to the tower, what Martin actually meant by only two rode away, etc. But for now--the text doesn't say who they were. Or where everyone is. It's a gap that has yet to be filled by text.

Neither one of those things (presence of the smell of roses, presence of "they") indicates the location. We have three things indicating where Lyanna died (the app, the appendix, and the dream), and nothing indicating another location.

Agree that the roses and the "they" do not indicate a location. 

Agree with the bolded--with one change. Not "nothing indicating another location." Rather, "nothing clearly indicating a single location."

And a caveat: the app is semi-canon. The appendix contains clearly, textually erroneous information. And the dream--is a dream. With a number of potential problems re: defining Lyanna's locale.

And, to walk myself into the buzz-saw of semi-canon debates: the wiki lists the following as castles "in the red mountains of Dorne:" Blackmont, High Hermitage, Kingsgrave, Skyreach, Wyl, Yronwood, and-------Starfall. 

So, if Lyanna died in the red mountains of Dorne--apparently there are a number of places she could have done so. Including Starfall.

[Sly Wren]

I see a possible parallel between the fight at the ToJ between Ned and Arthur and the fight between Jon and Qhorin.  Qhorin was a superb fighter who sacrificed himself to a younger and lesser warrior so he could appear to be an oathbreaker, for the greater good of the realm.  Arthur was a superb fighter who lost to a lesser warrior who would go on to pretend to have done something dishonorable for the greater good of the realm.  Maybe Arthur sacrificed himself, a sort of suicide by Stark, to preserve his honor and give and alternative explanation for the events of the Tower of Joy and at Starfall afterwards.

We've actually played with this idea (somewhere) re: Jon's being the Sword of the Morning. If Arthur thought he had to die for that to happen. But it's fairly speculative (at least on my part). Though the 7 against 3 as being part of a sacrifice--even an inadvertent sacrifice--is echoed in Dany's tent ritual with Mirri.

But the idea that Arthur might have seen dying as the only way to salvage his honor. . . that's workable. 

On the Qhorin parallel--are you arguing Arthur saw Ned as needing to survive vs. himself? Something else?

[SFDanny]

No--don't know. Do know that the Red Mountains are know for dry valleys and sandstone cliffs. That someone from the World Book (a Hightower?) said they were green until painted red with blood. So--not a lot of voluntary vegetation, apparently. Might they cultivate roses at an abandoned tower? Sure. But seems like there really might be other priorities.

My point was mostly that those are the only un-dreamed facts we get. NOT a lot to go on. With that many gaps, anything outside of the text that says location, without a clear tie in the text--seems like it's not unreasonable to scratch your head. At least a bit.

Oh, no. Sorry. I was alluding to the question of who the "they" are. I know it gets debated that people could have been brought out to the tower, what Martin actually meant by only two rode away, etc. But for now--the text doesn't say who they were. Or where everyone is. It's a gap that has yet to be filled by text.

Agree that the roses and the "they" do not indicate a location. 

Agree with the bolded--with one change. Not "nothing indicating another location." Rather, "nothing clearly indicating a single location."

And a caveat: the app is semi-canon. The appendix contains clearly, textually erroneous information. And the dream--is a dream. With a number of potential problems re: defining Lyanna's locale.

And, to walk myself into the buzz-saw of semi-canon debates: the wiki lists the following as castles "in the red mountains of Dorne:" Blackmont, High Hermitage, Kingsgrave, Skyreach, Wyl, Yronwood, and-------Starfall. 

So, if Lyanna died in the red mountains of Dorne--apparently there are a number of places she could have done so. Including Starfall.

I have no problem using the app, or other "semi-canon" sources such as quotes from the author. If we have reason to think we have a "unreliable source" we need to show that, just as with any unreliable narrator in the series. If we can show something has changed, and sometimes that is the case, then we need to show that as well.

As to the wiki and Starfall's location, I have no idea why the wiki lists Starfall as being in the mountains. It is clearly a port, and is referred to as being on the shores of the sea. So, if you have information on how the wiki  squares the two, I'd love to know.

[Sly Wren]

I have no problem using the app, or other "semi-canon" sources such as quotes from the author. If we have reason to think we have a "unreliable source" we need to show that, just as with any unreliable narrator in the series. If we can show something has changed, and sometimes that is the case, then we need to show that as well.

Fair enough. For me, if the text gives next to nothing, I have a hard time being happy with the semi-canon as definitive. Potentially right? Absolutely. But it can't define the argument with that many gaps in the main text. Doors stay open in my head (which sounds like a dangerous medical condition). 

As to the wiki and Starfall's location, I have no idea why the wiki lists Starfall as being in the mountains. It is clearly a port, and is referred to as being on the shores of the sea. So, if you have information on how the wiki  squares the two, I'd love to know.

I don't have info--only guesses. Starfall's on an island in the Torrentine, close to where it empties into the Summer Sea. So, am guessing that it's still technically in the Red Mountains--where the western red mountains border the summer sea. 

Either that, or "the red mountains" is considered a region within Dorne. And has low and high places within it. Rather like the Rocky Mountains in the intermountain west--apparently you don't have to be up on a mountain to be in the mountains.

Those are my best guesses. 

Either way--given that the appendix only says "in the red mountains of Dorne," and all of the castles I listed are defined as being "in the red mountains of Dorne"--region or actual mountain, sounds like the appendix (if accurate) has left a fair amount of wiggle room re: specific locale.

[Sly Wren]

I'm not even going to front that.As I said nothing that ive seen with respect to some kind of contact whereby we could even debate if a romance took place.That is a ttangible, or in this case lack of a tangible for me.

Agreed--the lack of any direct contact between Arthur and Lyanna gives me a lot of pause.

But given how Sansa echoes Lyanna on multiple occasions--her "relationship" with the kingsguard who refuses to be a knight; who gives her his cloak soiled with blood and fire, the cloak that comforts her; who does his best to protect her from the wannabe Targ king (Joff); who goes above and beyond all others to go out into the riot to save her; and whose non-existent kiss Sansa thinks of when kissing Robin--that "romance" seems like it could be setting up a symbolic tie to Lyanna and Arthur.

So, it might depend on whether Martin's going with an already given, on page connection between Lyanna and her lover, or a symbolic set-up prior to a reveal. If it's the latter, Arthur's still in the game.

[SFDanny]

I don't have info--only guesses. Starfall's on an island in the Torrentine, close to where it empties into the Summer Sea. So, am guessing that it's still technically in the Red Mountains--where the western red mountains border the summer sea. 

Either that, or "the red mountains" is considered a region within Dorne. And has low and high places within it. Rather like the Rocky Mountains in the intermountain west--apparently you don't have to be up on a mountain to be in the mountains.

Those are my best guesses. .

You could be right, but my guess is the wiki is wrong. I'll try to look further into it and get back to you if I find anything 

[J. Stargaryen]

 

Geeze quoting is a pain on this forum. I'll just respond to key points, and I'm sure you'll understand which I'm addressing.

First, wolfmaid was right, I made a great point. And no, I am in no way biased on the subject. I know, first hand, that all of my points are great. LOL

Ned repeatedly uses his own honor as leverage. Hence the guilt. And, unless Jon really is his son, that is exactly what he did when he claimed Jon as his own.

Sure, he leveraged it, to protect the lives of his family. Not a minor distinction.

 

I'm surprised. It seems rather accurate to me. Lyanna being Jon's mother places Jon in danger simply because of the abduction/rape/love rumors. The mere possibility or suspicion of any child being dragonspawn is a death sentence. Hence the estrangement between Ned and Robert during this time.

Like I said, I don't really agree, for reasons I've already given.

JStar,your not telling me anything tangible except what you feel.Its not built on anything but that.You tell me its not about protecting Lyanna's honor because Ned's honor doesn't exist to be sacrificed to protect someone else's.That's an opnion.

Wrong. It's an opinion, sure. But as corbon says, it's a textually supported opinion.

Voice's point is valid because this isn't just "anyone" its Ned's sister.The fact is Ned's lie accomplishes a lot.It protects his sister's name and honor and it safeguard's Jon's life.

The fact that it can accomplish many things doesn't affect Ned's motive. We've seen why Ned lies.

I meant no offense by using "you all" i am speaking in general to those of you currently that are participating that hold to this arguement.

There was no offense taken, I just didn't know who you were talking about. RLJers maybe? I wasn't sure. In any case, I gave my thoughts on the matter.

Again your belief doesn't affect what may or may not be true.You believe that Ned believe's the child would have a stronger claim.That's cool an all but its not the only viable explanation.

Not what I said at all.

You already have a conclusion in your head,therefore all alternatives must fit within the parameters of that conclusion instead of looking at the variable that matters. Jstar come on now ,look at the person we are talking about.

Ah, right. Anybody who thinks RLJ must be close minded.

Why does there have to be political implications.You forgetting who we are dealing with ?Robert is going to focus on one thing and it is not going to be political savy at that point.

I'm saying I think Ned (and maybe Jon Arryn, if needed) could prevent Robert from killing Lyanna's baby by Arthur, because the Dayne's don't have a claim to the throne. That's obviously different than if it were Rhaegar's son, especially a legitimate son. Arthur's son poses no political threat to Robert, so he could let the baby live. And I believe there's a good chance Ned would be able to convince Robert to do so, based on Lyanna's wishes.

Maybe I'm wrong, but there's no need to kill the baby, as there would be with Rhaegar's son. See the difference?

1. Where is it a textually founded opnion,please enlighten me? 

2.Yes it is textually based how many pages of this we have in the series now.Robert's anger and rashness is the first to be displayed.That is textuall.

1. Ned falsely confesses to treason after Varys threatens her life.

2. Sure, Robert's first thought might be to kill the baby. But what about after Ned, on Lyanna's behalf, and Jon Arryn talked him down? I'm sure the latter would understand the political importance of not making enemies out of houses who would be your friends; Starks and Daynes. And you're not going to make any friends by butchering the infant nephew of the lords Dayne and Stark.

The issue is and you all can deny that til the sky burns but Robert would come to the same conclusion about Arthur  unless told otherwise....In his mind it would be rape .That's what you are missing.So yes he would go after a rape baby.He may or may not have done anything to the Dornish but he probably would have demonized the KGs because that's what the man does.

Serously guys really,......He thinks of Rhaegar???? He thinks of Rhaegar. Aren't you all forgetting something and aren't you all misrepresenting that quote? Lets not resort to this.

Well, hopefully someone would tell Robert otherwise, if AD+L=J. Apparently that is what you are missing. And btw, I absolutely love how you declare your opinion to be a fact. Nice touch.

 

If you tell me you dismiss it because it has no political implications or Ned's reasons need to be X.You lose me.As ive shown in the Arryn murder and i'll drop in Joff's murder  things aren't as they appear a lot of time s

Hopefully I was able to clear that up for you. I thought it was pretty straightforward. Anyway, if it's still not clear: Targaryens have a claim to the IT, Daynes do not.

Btw, using the murder of Jon Arryn to share a parallel with RLJ only strengthens the latter's case, since RLJ has not been stated in books, Just like Lysa wasn't named as a suspect before she confessed. Instead we were given the red herrings of Cersei and Tyrion. They were mentioned as suspects right in the text. This has never happened with RLJ as the answer to Jon's parentage. The red herrings are Wylla, Ashara Dayne and the fisherman's daughter, written right in the text.

[wolfmaid7]

Lol, a passing thought? It was a culmination.

- But regardless: you muse about your best friend's shortcomings and failures, about his lack of commitment and his uncared-for bastard children, you turn your thoughts to your dead sister who had correctly evaluated this lack of commitment and to her child who has to live the life of a bastard - and then you give a passing thought to a guy who has nothing to do with Lyanna, her child or her reproach of Robert's infidelity. That doesn't sound legit at all.

And excuse me, no-one would have known Arthur's role when? At ToJ? Perhaps. Fourteen years later? Impossible. There would be absolutely no basis for the later reveal. Ned would have had to know, but there is a sad lack of such knowledge anywhere in his PoVs. 

Er, no. You do not seem to be able to distinguish between what the characters know and what the reader knows.

1. Cersei. And then Tyrion.

2. Cersei. Except that ridiculous claim of Lysa's that it was Tyrion.

3. What Ned thought was absolutely insubstantial. The reader should have noted that there is something fishy going on - that Tyrion was framed first by Petyr and then by Lysa and that Lysa is unreliable and unstable like hell, henceforth anything she claims should be taken with more than just a grain of salt, and Petyr turns out to be a master schemer. Hence, the whole accusation against Cersei loses ground - she sure had motive, but there is actually not a single hint of her involvement.

4... and the whole network of hints pointing towards it which perfectly fit in retrospect. We know there was some foul play, we know that Lysa was unstable and fiercely protective of her child, we know that Sweetrobin was to be fostered and there was contradicting information where to, we know that Petyr had a strong influence with Lysa, we know that it was her letter that dragged the Starks into the conflict with the Lannisters... need I go on? The bits were all there.

5. It actually did, because Colemon might have saved Jon Arryn, had Pycelle not intervened on Cersei's behalf.

 

So, what GRRM does is that he keeps dropping bits of information, some of them fitting together, others contradicting. He never does no information whatsoever.

Ygrain,no doubt we will have this conversation again on the appropriate thread as for now i'm really not trying to derail it down that road.

Let's not forget at the end of the day with regard to Jon's parentage its almost a clean slate.Meaning a shit load of people are dead.To quote Cat any secret Ned had is dead with him.Dayne,Rhaegar,Whent are all dead.The only person who is alive who can give any sort of detail is Howland and even he may not have any intimate knowledge.No one would no Arthur's or Rhaegar's or Robert's or Howland unless they have some knowledge that puts Jon as one of their progeny. From where we sit its either going to be the 9th hour Howland Reed or vision by Weirnet.

I know dang well how to tell the difference between what characters know and what readers know.You don't seem to comphrehend what i'm saying.So let me explain again. My entire point for bringing up the Arryn murder and Joff's murder is to highlight one thing the way GRRM sets up mysteries and reveals them.That's it all this break down of what Cersie did and Lysa did is unneccessary because i wasn't speaking about that aspect.

To be fair, there were plenty of hints regarding Arryn's murder... You just had to know where to look for them. I didn't get them on my first read.. but when I knew who had done it, and reread the books, the hints where right there to see.

Joff's murder is quite a different a different category. We're told quite quickly after his death that LF was involved. It was not a mystery that was solved only after three books.

 

Like i explain to Ygrain what you are saying isn't the point i'm making.There were overt statements and 'clues' pointing to the Lannisters.Hell something Cersie did and said almost danmed her as the culprit.But subtle clues,obscure clues pointed to Lysa.Even more subtle clues said she wasn't behind it.But my point was look at how GRRM set up and unfolded that entire mystery.Something to be aware of.

Agreed--the lack of any direct contact between Arthur and Lyanna gives me a lot of pause.

But given how Sansa echoes Lyanna on multiple occasions--her "relationship" with the kingsguard who refuses to be a knight; who gives her his cloak soiled with blood and fire, the cloak that comforts her; who does his best to protect her from the wannabe Targ king (Joff); who goes above and beyond all others to go out into the riot to save her; and whose non-existent kiss Sansa thinks of when kissing Robin--that "romance" seems like it could be setting up a symbolic tie to Lyanna and Arthur.

So, it might depend on whether Martin's going with an already given, on page connection between Lyanna and her lover, or a symbolic set-up prior to a reveal. If it's the latter, Arthur's still in the game.

I don't know the only echo i'm able to see with Sansa and Lyanna is the love of flowers.That's pretty much it.I may have missed a few .

[wolfmaid7]

Sure, he leveraged it, to protect the lives of his family. Not a minor distinction.

Like I said, I don't really agree, for reasons I've already given.

Wrong. It's an opinion, sure. But as corbon says, it's a textually supported opinion.

The fact that it can accomplish many things doesn't affect Ned's motive. We've seen why Ned lies.

There was no offense taken, I just didn't know who you were talking about. RLJers maybe? I wasn't sure. In any case, I gave my thoughts on the matter.

Not what I said at all.

Ah, right. Anybody who thinks RLJ must be close minded.

I'm saying I think Ned (and maybe Jon Arryn, if needed) could prevent Robert from killing Lyanna's baby by Arthur, because the Dayne's don't have a claim to the throne. That's obviously different than if it were Rhaegar's son, especially a legitimate son. Arthur's son poses no political threat to Robert, so he could let the baby live. And I believe there's a good chance Ned would be able to convince Robert to do so, based on Lyanna's wishes.

Maybe I'm wrong, but there's no need to kill the baby, as there would be with Rhaegar's son. See the difference?

 

 

1. Ned falsely confesses to treason after Varys threatens her life.

2. Sure, Robert's first thought might be to kill the baby. But what about after Ned, on Lyanna's behalf, and Jon Arryn talked him down? I'm sure the latter would understand the political importance of not making enemies out of houses who would be your friends; Starks and Daynes. And you're not going to make any friends by butchering the infant nephew of the lords Dayne and Stark.

Well, hopefully someone would tell Robert otherwise, if AD+L=J. Apparently that is what you are missing. And btw, I absolutely love how you declare your opinion to be a fact. Nice touch.

 

Hopefully I was able to clear that up for you. I thought it was pretty straightforward. Anyway, if it's still not clear: Targaryens have a claim to the IT, Daynes do not.

Btw, using the murder of Jon Arryn to share a parallel with RLJ only strengthens the latter's case, since RLJ has not been stated in books, Just like Lysa wasn't named as a suspect before she confessed. Instead we were given the red herrings of Cersei and Tyrion. They were mentioned as suspects right in the text. This has never happened with RLJ as the answer to Jon's parentage. The red herrings are Wylla, Ashara Dayne and the fisherman's daughter, written right in the text.

1. So?

2. Yes Robert's first thought would be to kill the baby,i believe that was the point i was making .......one can only hope Jon Arryn and Ned could calm that storm.They sure as hell weren't able to before.Heck,Ned wasn't able to with Dany and by the time Robert did change his mind "the birds had flown". 

The point is Robert's anger is to rash,it doesn't take a backseat to reason until its too late or maybe not at all.

None of which matters because like i said everyone of those people are dead.What steps or impact Jon will make on the story based on his parentage is still yet to play out.What someone would have,could have,should have told Robert matters not he is dead.

My opinion was a fact, you even echoed and prooved it.Robert would have killed the baby."You" are hoping .It's your opnion Ned and Arryn "would/could" have talked him down.To which i say its possible history and present events work against that but hey one could hope.

3.I get what your saying what i'm disagreeing with is the assertion that somehow claim means anything.Whoever is strong,whoever is willing,whoever can win the people can take the throne.Didn't Renly and Varys kinda break down how this works.

4.Again please show me how Ned's honor does not exist to be a sacrifice for someone is textual.And i will show you that he already did be it to save a life,to spare feelings etc.The point is he has done it.

5. Actually it weakens RLJ,well  it weakens any theory that is as overt and obvious as it is.Overt and obvious "clues" that leads one to a conclusion that follows in its vein.But again we will have plenty of time to talk about the strength and weaknesses of RLJ.

Patience Precious,Patience.

Its the first essay in the second cycle next week Tuesday. 

 

[J. Stargaryen]

1. So?

2. Yes Robert's first thought would be to kill the baby .......one can only hope Jon Arryn and Ned could calm that storm.They sure as hell weren't able to before.None of which matters because like i said everyone of those people are dead.What steps or impact Jon will make on the story b ased on his parentage is still yet to play out.What someone would have,could have,should have told Robert matters not he is dead.My opinion was a fact you even echoed it.Robert would have killed the baby."You" are hoping Ned and Arryn "would" have talked him down.

3.I get what your saying what i'm disagreeing with is the assertion that somehow claim means anything.Whoever is strong,whoever is willing,whoever can win the people can take the throne.Didn't Renly and Varys kinda break down how this works.

4. Actually it weakens RLJ,well  it weakens any theory that is as overt and obvious as it is.Overt and obvious "clues" that leads one to a conclusion that follows in its vein.But again we will have plenty of time to talk about the strength and weaknesses of RLJ.

Patience Precious,Patience.

Its the first essay in the second cycle next week Tuesday. 

 

1. You don't see how that applies?

2. No, it's not a fact. No matter how many times you say it is. I qualified it with "maybe" btw.

3. I don't care what you think claim means. I'm saying that in universe it would matter. And that a son of Rhaegar's, especially a legitimate one, could turn into a very real threat to Robert's crown. The same could not be said of Arthur Dayne's son.

4. No, it doesn't because they're not the same thing. You seem to be conflating what we know based on a textual confession with, what we think we know about Jon's parentage; RLJ. Those aren't the same things, and shouldn't be categorized as such.

In both cases we have red herrings. For Jon Arryn's murder, we're given Cersei and Tyrion, or the Lannisters generally. Yet the actual answer turned out to be Lysa. For Jon Snow's parentage, we're given Ned + Wylla, Ashara, or the FMD. With an upcoming reveal. So, red herrings in one category, reveal in another. And conflating what we definitely know based on a textual confession with what we think we know based on analysis, is just you making a messy analogy.

[Ygrain]

Let's not forget at the end of the day with regard to Jon's parentage its almost a clean slate.Meaning a shit load of people are dead.To quote Cat any secret Ned had is dead with him.Dayne,Rhaegar,Whent are all dead.The only person who is alive who can give any sort of detail is Howland and even he may not have any intimate knowledge.No one would no Arthur's or Rhaegar's or Robert's or Howland unless they have some knowledge that puts Jon as one of their progeny. From where we sit its either going to be the 9th hour Howland Reed or vision by Weirnet.

...and one very much alive Wylla, not to mention the Daynes who, for some reason, accomodated the mother of the man who killed their legendary hero. Wylla even may be a first-hand witness.

I know dang well how to tell the difference between what characters know and what readers know.You don't seem to comphrehend what i'm saying.So let me explain again. My entire point for bringing up the Arryn murder and Joff's murder is to highlight one thing the way GRRM sets up mysteries and reveals them.That's it all this break down of what Cersie did and Lysa did is unneccessary because i wasn't speaking about that aspect.

/cough/

I comprehend what you are saying just fine, only GRRM doesn't set mysteries in the way you present, hence the breakdown.

Like i explain to Ygrain what you are saying isn't the point i'm making.There were overt statements and 'clues' pointing to the Lannisters.Hell something Cersie did and said almost danmed her as the culprit.But subtle clues,obscure clues pointed to Lysa.Even more subtle clues said she wasn't behind it.But my point was look at how GRRM set up and unfolded that entire mystery.Something to be aware of.

On "clues" and clues we can agree, except there are none pointing towards Arthur having any relationship with Lyanna whatsoever.