The Pact of Ice and Fire and what it might actually mean

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

The other Blacks and Greens at court, presumably. The Realm was devastated, yes, but Johanna Lannister still found enough to put down Dalton Greyjoy for good, so I'd not bet all that much in a self-proclaimed King Cregan. Not to mention that it was the wrong season for that. Winter had begun in 130 AC, and the North most likely would have suffered the most during the winter. Cregan even intended for some of his older men to die bravely in battle rather than return back home to be additional mouths during the winter, so I clearly don't see him being in a position to secede from the Iron Throne. Not to mention that he had no intention of doing so. If he wanted that, he could have stayed out of the Dance entirely.

He would not have had to proclaim himself king then and there. He could have stayed Hand and properly prepared it.

[Lord Varys]

Well, that would have been treason. And Hand or not, if he had tried to make himself King in the North by speaking with King Aegon III's voice there would have been opposition to that in whoever sat on the Small Council at that point. If Cregan had continued to serve as Hand there would have to be some other solution for the Regency era, Cregan could not have possibly claimed all the power for himself. And his rivals at court would not have allowed him to get away with that.

But again, he had no interest in doing such a thing.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

Well, that would have been treason. And Hand or not, if he had tried to make himself King in the North by speaking with King Aegon III's voice there would have been opposition to that in whoever sat on the Small Council at that point. If Cregan had continued to serve as Hand there would have to be some other solution for the Regency era, Cregan could not have possibly claimed all the power for himself. And his rivals at court would not have allowed him to get away with that.

But again, he had no interest in doing such a thing.

He had no interest in that. On that we agree. I guess we really don't know enough about the situation at court for either of us to convince the other, so, I guess, let's agree to disagree on that issue.

[AlaskanSandman]

In my book the existence of a true core to the story of the Merling King depends on there being a third magical faction, so to speak. I am not totally opposed to the idea of there being a truth to the guy, but I don't know where he might fit it.

I actually place Garth as the Merling King on the side of Ice. So for me there are still only 2 powers at work. I think we're just given so many stories that it seems a mess. 

I still see Ice and water on one side and Fire and Land on the other. It may have been the dragons who made the Silver Sea dry up even as they have laid waste to so many other areas, it wouldn't surprise me. Volcanoes which make land and on the side of fire (14 flames) creates land which is robbing the sea of real estate. As the lands grow, so to does his grip lessen. Plus, what makes the lands bloom truely? Water. It is indeed a balance. 

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

I actually place Garth as the Merling King on the side of Ice. So for me there are still only 2 powers at work. I think we're just given so many stories that it seems a mess. 

I still see Ice and water on one side and Fire and Land on the other. It may have been the dragons who made the Silver Sea dry up even as they have laid waste to so many other areas, it wouldn't surprise me. Volcanoes which make land and on the side of fire (14 flames) creates land which is robbing the sea of real estate. As the lands grow, so to does his grip lessen. Plus, what makes the lands bloom truely? Water. It is indeed a balance. 

Well, alright. But that would still mean that there is no Merling King, so to speak. If Garth is the Merling King, than the Merling King is basically a man and not a king of a race of Merlings, right?

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

Okay, so I guess, I will make an attempt to get this thread back on topic. While everything written here was really very interesting, I think, we - and that definitely includes myself - have strayed pretty far from the topic. I will narrow it down to a couple of questions.

1) Is Mushroom telling the truth about there being dragon eggs in Winterfell during the Dance of the Dragons? (And why do or don't you believe him?)

 

2) What was the main purpose of the Pact of Ice and Fire? (Winning the war? Saving dragons for another day, probably the war for the dawn?)

 

3) Why did Cregan Stark never marry a Targaryen?

 

4) Why did Addam Velaryon consult the Green Men?

Here are my own thoughts on the topic once more: http://freypiesforskagos.blogspot.de/2015/11/red-black-green-and-green-or-from-ice.html

I guess, I will give my own answers.

1) Yes, he is.

 

2) Saving the dragons for another day (which might or might not be the War for the Dawn).

 

3) Because that was never the plan in the first place.

 

4) Because he was an envoy to the Green Men and their allies probably sent by Corlys Velaryon (or probably someone else among the blacks) who had most likely been in contact with the Green Men for a time.

[AlaskanSandman]

Well, alright. But that would still mean that there is no Merling King, so to speak. If Garth is the Merling King, than the Merling King is basically a man and not a king of a race of Merlings, right?

No, there is a Merling King. Has likely been multiple ones by now, im guessing that their life span is still long but not as long as Garths was due to mixing with humans. Both the Fire and Ice sides seem to have problems reproducing. Targaryens with their repeated still births and such. Garth the Green was likely just the first Merling King. Further more i think he's a skin changer as one of his ways he walks on shore. He is the King of a race of beings that we hear about interbreeding with men of the Three Sisters and the Thousand Islands to name a few.

 Since the Manderly's are an ancient house from the Reach and even the river Mander is named after them, i would figure they are the first rulers of that land or descend from him. There sigil is a merman, and the only sigil in the reach showing any sort of figure other than a Lion or some other animal. 

If Garth the Green was indeed a Merman skin changing Giant, then all those big black oily stone objects/constructions now have a good source for who built them with a clear tie to Gods and the Sea. As the people who had built these things were apparently sea men of some kind as they were able to traverse the globe and build on different lands. Who ever built these things were at odds with the children of the Forest and Giants (Mountain kind) seemed to be at odds with them as a battle happened on Battle Isle, and there just happens to be a fortress made of oily black stone with an underground labyrinth there with no signs of CotF, Giants, or Weirwood trees any where in the area. 

The Others and Merlings seem to be on the same side as reports from East watch about dead things out of the Sea and accounts from patch face about dead things and merman under the sea along with armies. Both these groups needing babies from the humans given as offerings (Crastor and such). 

So Others/Merman are the third race that Garth was the King of. 

Accounts from the Rhoynar speak of the freezing of her waters down to the joining of the Selhoru. In Westeros that would put that at just the southern border of Garths domains, Dorne and the Red Mountains, originally named the Green Mountains.  

 

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

No, there is a Merling King. Has likely been multiple ones by now, im guessing that their life span is still long but not as long as Garths was due to mixing with humans. Both the Fire and Ice sides seem to have problems reproducing. Targaryens with their repeated still births and such. Garth the Green was likely just the first Merling King. Further more i think he's a skin changer as one of his ways he walks on shore. He is the King of a race of beings that we hear about interbreeding with men of the Three Sisters and the Thousand Islands to name a few.

 Since the Manderly's are an ancient house from the Reach and even the river Mander is named after them, i would figure they are the first rulers of that land or descend from him. There sigil is a merman, and the only sigil in the reach showing any sort of figure other than a Lion or some other animal. 

If Garth the Green was indeed a Merman skin changing Giant, then all those big black oily stone objects/constructions now have a good source for who built them with a clear tie to Gods and the Sea. As the people who had built these things were apparently sea men of some kind as they were able to traverse the globe and build on different lands. Who ever built these things were at odds with the children of the Forest and Giants (Mountain kind) seemed to be at odds with them as a battle happened on Battle Isle, and there just happens to be a fortress made of oily black stone with an underground labyrinth there with no signs of CotF, Giants, or Weirwood trees any where in the area. 

The Others and Merlings seem to be on the same side as reports from East watch about dead things out of the Sea and accounts from patch face about dead things and merman under the sea along with armies. Both these groups needing babies from the humans given as offerings (Crastor and such). 

So Others/Merman are the third race that Garth was the King of. 

Accounts from the Rhoynar speak of the freezing of her waters down to the joining of the Selhoru. In Westeros that would put that at just the southern border of Garths domains, Dorne and the Red Mountains, originally named the Green Mountains.  

 

Where and what exactly would the Merlings be than? I still don't really know where you are going here, while I like that you try find a place for all these water-related entities in your theory.

[AlaskanSandman]

Where and what exactly would the Merlings be than? I still don't really know where you are going here, while I like that you try find a place for all these water-related entities in your theory.

 Where? In the Sea. As i said, there are signs among the people of the Three Sisters and the Thousand Islands all showing signs of mixing with some fish like creatures.

What exactly is kinda hard to say im were not given much textual evidence for what the creatures look like other than their offspring with humans, unless the sigils showing a Merman/Mermaid is exactly what they are and could very well be.

What im proposing is that the Others and the Merlings or Sea Creatures are on the same side. This is evident from the constant linking to the dead and mist, think Chroyanne. 

Dragons are "Fire made flesh".

Others seem to be "Water made flesh" while the stone men seem to be another attempt at creating soldiers that could fight their war on land, where their opponent, us, is.
 

I try not to ignore any of the stories and yes i try to fit them all in. Too many people conveniently discard what ever doesn't fit into their already preconceived ideas. I try to let my research dictate my theory rather than my theory dictating my research. Granted, i dont claim to have the answers by no means yet, but i do have a unique theory using a lot of textual evidence to back it. And very willing to take on any and all questions

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

 Where? In the Sea. As i said, there are signs among the people of the Three Sisters and the Thousand Islands all showing signs of mixing with some fish like creatures.

What exactly is kinda hard to say im were not given much textual evidence for what the creatures look like other than their offspring with humans, unless the sigils showing a Merman/Mermaid is exactly what they are and could very well be.

What im proposing is that the Others and the Merlings or Sea Creatures are on the same side. This is evident from the constant linking to the dead and mist, think Chroyanne. 

Dragons are "Fire made flesh".

Others seem to be "Water made flesh" while the stone men seem to be another attempt at creating soldiers that could fight their war on land, where their opponent, us, is.
 

I try not to ignore any of the stories and yes i try to fit them all in. Too many people conveniently discard what ever doesn't fit into their already preconceived ideas. I try to let my research dictate my theory rather than my theory dictating my research. Granted, i dont claim to have the answers by no means yet, but i do have a unique theory using a lot of textual evidence to back it. And very willing to take on any and all questions

So was/is Garth a Merling or a man then? And does this mean that you consider the Others and the Merlings as persons that are capable of good as well as bad?

[AlaskanSandman]

So was/is Garth a Merling or a man then? And does this mean that you consider the Others and the Merlings as persons that are capable of good as well as bad?

Rather a god capable of many forms, like a shape or skin changer. Hard to say for sure. There are alot of myths though about breeding with mermaids/merman so that humans could take to the Sea or Land. Kinda makes me think about Zeus and them taking the form of sun light or other odd things to mate with humans and bring about demi gods. 

Hmmm. Ultimately id say capable of both good and bad. Id say the same of the side of Fire. Humans just seem to be caught in the middle.

Which makes me think of Martins other works. Where humans are fed things through dreams and such to get man to turn on each other. My bigger question is, is there really 2 sides? Or is there really only one side? The Children of the Forrest. 

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

Rather a god capable of many forms, like a shape or skin changer. Hard to say for sure. There are alot of myths though about breeding with mermaids/merman so that humans could take to the Sea or Land. Kinda makes me think about Zeus and them taking the form of sun light or other odd things to mate with humans and bring about demi gods. 

Hmmm. Ultimately id say capable of both good and bad. Id say the same of the side of Fire. Humans just seem to be caught in the middle.

Which makes me think of Martins other works. Where humans are fed things through dreams and such to get man to turn on each other. My bigger question is, is there really 2 sides? Or is there really only one side? The Children of the Forrest. 

So, gods are real? I am not so very sure about that. Martin's other works seem to suggest that gods are most likely not really walking Planetos, I'd say.

[AlaskanSandman]

So, gods are real? I am not so very sure about that. Martin's other works seem to suggest that gods are most likely not really walking Planetos, I'd say.

My last comment would actually place it all in the hands of The Children of the Forest. So they would be the "Gods" people speak of and pray too. Not really gods at all. Just another race with gifts beyond ours that we dont fully understand.

[purple-eyes]

I really do not understand why that blackwood woman offered herself to Stark in order to save Corlys. 

Why? she respected Corlys so much that she decided to use her own marriage to rescue him?

Do they know each other? Corlys was a very old man at that moment. were they in love?

 

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

I really do not understand why that blackwood woman offered herself to Stark in order to save Corlys. 

Why? she respected Corlys so much that she decided to use her own marriage to rescue him?

Do they know each other? Corlys was a very old man at that moment. were they in love?

 

Did you read the article I linked in the initial post? While I don't mention his name there, I assume that it was probably Corlys Velaryon that had a good connection to the Green Men. In my book he was part of the alliance that was trying to save dragons for a War-for-the-Dawn-like scenario. House Blackwood (or many of its members) were, too.

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

My last comment would actually place it all in the hands of The Children of the Forest. So they would be the "Gods" people speak of and pray too. Not really gods at all. Just another race with gifts beyond ours that we dont fully understand.

But of what race would Garth be then?

[AlaskanSandman]

But of what race would Garth be then?

A hybrid between the Fire side and the Ice side of the CotF. Best i can theorize.

[King of the West]

The problem with the theory is that the source is Mushroom, so there's no way to know if this is something that's true, or something he just made up. I suspect the latter, there's no way Mushroom would have known what was going on with the Blacks and Winterfel. Wasn't he in King's Landing during the Dance?

wait they thought he was a harmless fool like moonboy

[FreyPiesForSkagos]

A hybrid between the Fire side and the Ice side of the CotF. Best i can theorize.

So the Children are both Fire and Ice? I see that I still haven't gotten the gist of theory.

[AlaskanSandman]

So the Children are both Fire and Ice? I see that I still haven't gotten the gist of theory.

Well your trying to pin me into giving a precise theory regarding people/ events from the Dawn days when i my self still have questions and things im working out. Still have re-reads to do and more notes to take to weigh and consider info. Sometimes it takes looking at something again after learning something else. Its a process as you should know. Who is ultimately the gods or powers is really hard for anyyyy of us to say with any solid amount or certainty. George could surprise us in the last book and we could find out that human, giants, and cotf are all actually from the same race that have all split off. Crazy but would explain why we can all breed with each other. Just sayin, nothing we say if for certain. If this is a part of Martins A Thousand Worlds Universe, we're definitely gonna have a surprise ending.