What was the Biggest Cause of Robb's Demise

[Ser Knute]

What was the Biggest Cause of Robb's Demise

I'm not sure why this is the question asked and then people respond with "Robb's biggest mistake was..."

The biggest cause of Robb's demise is betrayal.  Betrayal by Roose to begin with, betrayal by Walder to end with.  It's pretty plain.  His marrying Jeyne was a slight to Walder no doubt, but it's unreasonable to think that had not Walder (and Roose as well) CHOSE to betray Robb in an even more egregious manner than Robb betrayed Walder, that amends could have been made and the alliance could've held strong and possibly even used to turn the tide against the Lannisters.  It is precisely his allies betrayal which was designed to end his life, not simply to break a marriage vow, that is the biggest cause of Robb's demise.  It is precisely that betrayal that is going to cost House Frey and hopefully House Bolton their houses and lives in the end.  I forsee one of them going the way of House Harren and Reyne along with all the others that tried to make the jump to more prominence in the realm by way of treachery.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I'm not sure why this is the question asked and then people respond with "Robb's biggest mistake was..."

The biggest cause of Robb's demise is betrayal.

People have already covered that. Robb's biggest mistake was betraying Walder Frey.

[Ser Knute]

LOL, if you're turning the topic into a subtopic, whatever, the question was asked and answered, quibble all you want about Robb's mistakes.  None of them forced Frey to betray him nor Roose to stab him.  They OWN those actions like it or not.

[LordPathera]

Lets look at some of the contenders:

1) Declaring himself King in the North

Robb was appointed as king by lords of the North and Riverlands who have had it with the Lannisters and the backstabbing concerning the Iron Throne. If Robb didn't accept the appointment (which he really couldn't decline), then someone else would have been made King like Karstark or Edmure because this gathering of lords were sick of living under corrupt and murderous rulers.

This in itself is not a mistake, but merely a declaration of no compromise. Joffrey had made a similar statement when he removed Ned Stark's head after promising to spare his life and Tywin did likewise after he had invaded and murdered/pillaged/raped thousands of Riverlanders over a slight on his pride. (Considering how Tywin truly feels about Tyrion, his anger was more about House Lannister's reputation than his own son's well-being)

2) Sending Theon to Pyke

A bad call and it's obvious as to why.

However, even though I'd agree that this was Robb's biggest mistake, the plan that he had in mind here was a reasonable one. He was acting mindful of the fact that he needed allies to defeat the Lannisters and end the war. Therefore, he believed that Balon would be reasonable to his terms and that sending back his only son would be taken as a gesture of good faith.

Robb had no way of knowing that Balon was a petty and idiotic fool who couldn't see a gold mine when it was laid in front of him. Sending Theon was a mistake, but how was Robb supposed to know that Balon would spit in his face and invade a country that would be impossible to conquer and hold RIGHT AS WINTER IS COMING.

The only reason that Winterfell was taken was because of Rodrik's lack of command competence and Theon deciding to take the extra step to try and impress his stupid father.

All of that said, this is one of the stronger contenders.

3) The Edmure debate

I'll admit that while Robb should have been more informative about his plans, Edmure's just as much at blame for the "Stone Mill incident" as Robb is.

Why? Because Edmure's actions not only insured that Tywin would make it to KL, but that he'd also be ensuring that Lannister forces continue to ravage/rape/murder/oppress his own people when Tywin was actually LEAVING the devastated Riverlands.

Sun Tzu states that a good general knows when the fight when necessary and when not to fight when necessary. Edmure clearly should have done the latter and instead he bottles up a retreating enemy on his own lawn where they could do more damage. Again, Sun Tzu rightfully states that it's better to let a retreating enemy depart without incident or you'll be wasting troops and force your enemy to fight harder and more desperately.

Also, Edmure was clearing acting as a means of gaining personal glory and personal vengeance for earlier defeats in the war. An intention which caused him to interpret Robb's clear, yet unclear orders so that he'd take the offensive against Tywin instead of holding Riverrun in defense as he was commanded.

Had Robb told Edmure his full intentions, perhaps Edmure may have still blundered for glory and vengeance or maybe he would have done as intended. After that, maybe Blackfish's supposed trap would've worked; maybe Tywin would have beaten and captured/killed Robb; maybe Stannis would win KL or still lose.

Whatever could've happened, the Theon decision seems like a far worst mistake than the Edmure debacle since it's still unclear as to whether blame falls more on Edmure or on Robb since it can honestly go either way depending on your perspective and reasoning.

4) Dishonoring Jeyne Westerling

Speaks for itself and pissed off the Freys enough for them to be on-board with the Red Wedding.

That said, the fact that the Freys practically strong-armed the Starks/Tullys into the marriage agreement in the first place and violated a universal sacred tradition in their giant and unjustified overreaction to a snub tells me something.

The Freys would've screwed over Robb eventually anyway.

That said, Robb did slight them for breaking the contract and marrying Jeyne Westerling. However, I'd point out that he did try to do everything in his power to make amends for this mistake and offering his Lord-Paramount uncle as a substitute (LP's are practically the equivalent of King's after all) would be enough to fix the breach with any other lord, be they more practical or honorable.

Instead, Robb was dealing with Walder mother f$%&%$ Frey and North still remembers it.

5) Appointing Roose Bolton as Commander of his foot soldiers

I'm not holding this one against Robb.

Robb couldn't read the man's mind and it's clear that at some point before or after the Battle of Blackwater, Roose was planning to switch sides to betray Robb and become Lord over the North.

Plus, something about Ramsey's actions seem...fortuitous.

Ramsey is cruel, monstrous, ruthless, vicious, manipulative and brutal...but he's also cunning and intelligent. His actions appear to be randomly evil considering the timing...

Unless he had a raven from his father instructing him over an opportune moment.

Now Ramsey's actions make sense as part of his father's greater apparent plot.

While Roose acts in the South and slowly bleeds off those of the northmen who were loyal to the Starks; Ramsey takes advantage of the Ironborn invasion (mainly Theon) to weaken to Stark loyalists from within. Then after Robb dies, Ramsey can retake Moat Cailin and Roose rides northward unimpeded as the new Warden of the North.

Some of this admittingly tinfoil, but it's enough to make me wonder. It's also enough to say that Robb didn't make a mistake with giving Roose command as Roose was too cunning and deceptive for Robb to realize that Bolton may have been a traitor from the start.

 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Lets look at some of the contenders:

1) Declaring himself King in the North

Robb was appointed as king by lords of the North and Riverlands who have had it with the Lannisters and the backstabbing concerning the Iron Throne. If Robb didn't accept the appointment (which he really couldn't decline), then someone else would have been made King like Karstark or Edmure because this gathering of lords were sick of living under corrupt and murderous rulers.

 

How on earth did you jump to this conclusion?

First of all it is not like there was that many Northern Lords present. Lord Bolton, Lord Hornwood (now deceased), Lady Dustin, Lord Ryswell, Lord Manderly, Lord Cerwyn, Lord Locke, Lord Reed and Lord Flint of Flints Finger were not present for this coronation.

The Lords of the North in this meeting were Umber, Karstark, Robb and possibly the Lord Flint of Widows Watch. Robb became King because a drunken Umber suggested it and because they could not agree on following Stannis, Renly, Tommen or even Joffrey they agreed to it. It was a drunken mistake not some decision that was inevitably going to be taken whether Robb accepted or rejected it.

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

Sending Theon to Pyke, hands down. Let's imagine a scenario where this doesn't happen:

- Balon attacks the Stony Shore and Deepwood Motte, big whoop.

- Ramsay rots in a cell

- Winterfell doesn't get burned or attacked by the Ironborn

- Robb doesn't have sex with Jeyne out of grief for Bran and Rickon's "deaths"

- Cat doesn't release Jaime. Maybe she trades him for Sansa.

- The Red Wedding doesn't happen. Robb probably marries Roslyn.

- Sandor takes Arya to the Twins and there's a heartfelt reunion with Cat

- Rodrik Cassel, the Cerwyn kid and the rest can take care of the Ironborn and the wildlings until Robb comes back North

- The Lannisters meet siege after siege and full resistance when they invade the Riverlands

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

How on earth did you jump to this conclusion?

First of all it is not like there was that many Northern Lords present. Lord Bolton, Lord Hornwood (now deceased), Lady Dustin, Lord Ryswell, Lord Manderly, Lord Cerwyn, Lord Locke, Lord Reed and Lord Flint of Flints Finger were not present for this coronation.

The Lords of the North in this meeting were Umber, Karstark, Robb and possibly the Lord Flint of Widows Watch. Robb became King because a drunken Umber suggested it and because they could not agree on following Stannis, Renly, Tommen or even Joffrey they agreed to it. It was a drunken mistake not some decision that was inevitably going to be taken whether Robb accepted or rejected it.

 

You have a point but Robb being named King is more than just the ramblings of a drunken Lord.

By beheading Ned, for the North, this is like declaring war against the North. Hence, the North shouldn't have an obligation to the Iron Throne. Not different from Jon Arryn's rebellion. He did it after the King threatened his own Lords.

The difference here is that Jon Arryn was more political than the Northerners. Also, the North consider itself a whole different culture: that's important. For them, the South is them. This was not the case for Arryn.

Robb becoming King is symbolic of the North telling the Lannister to go and fuck themselves. He was, after all, their leader even if he hadn't been proclaimed King.

[Swordofmorning]

The biggest cause of Robb's demise is George. He wanted the most honourable, brave and clever hero left in the story to die, so die he did.

IMO, Robb's demise is not as much his fault as other factors in the background like :

- Renly getting killed by a shadow baby.

- Theon's need to impress his daddy.

- Betrayal of his bannerman.

- Walder Frey.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Greyjoy invasion of the North. Quite simply, that is the ultimate cause of Robb's defeat.

As Roose Bolton said, he himself only decided to turn coat once Theon took Winterfell.

If Balon had instead joined with Robb, the outcome of the War of the Five Kings would have been completely different.

 

[Humble Maester]

The #1 reason why the North lost the war was... Stannis killing Renly, of course. If not for that Lannisters would had been beatable and Robb could (in most likelihood) made peace with Renly under some terms. After Stannis killed Renly and the Tyrells joined Lannisters it was pretty much game over.

[Roose on the Loose]

Tywin had spies.  Robb had no spies.  Robb never had a prayer.

Sure it was dumb to send Theon home.  But if the chamber-maid who had to listen to Balon grumble about the Starks all day was making reports to Robb, he might have known better.

Sure he was betrayed, but why wasn't he spying on his own Lords Bannerman?

Intelligence is everything.  Robb had good battlefield intelligence thanx to his warg-uncle BF. However, Tywin understood that war is a much bigger game than men fighting in an open field.  It involves spies and assassins and sex and damaged pride and harvesting grain.  

As Queen in the North, Sansa will have spies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Good Guy Garlan]

Robb had good battlefield intelligence thanx to his warg-uncle BF.  

[Blackfish Tully]

The #1 reason why the North lost the war was... Stannis killing Renly, of course. If not for that Lannisters would had been beatable and Robb could (in most likelihood) made peace with Renly under some terms. After Stannis killed Renly and the Tyrells joined Lannisters it was pretty much game over.

Exactly, Tywin was in a very difficult position before Renly died . Even Tywin and Tyrion had no illusions on how difficult the position was. 

Tyrion "Peace?" Tyrion swirled his wine thoughtfully, took a deep draft, and hurled his empty cup to the floor, where it shattered into a thousand pieces. "There's your peace, Ser Harys. My sweet nephew broke it for good and all when he decided to ornament the Red Keep with Lord Eddard's head. You'll have an easier time drinking wine from that cup than you will convincing Robb Stark to make peace now. He's winning … or hadn't you noticed?"

Tywin  "Jaime has left us in a bad way. Roose Bolton and the remnants of his host are north of us. Our enemies hold the Twins and Moat Cailin. Robb Stark sits to the west, so we cannot retreat to Lannisport and the Rock unless we choose to give battle. Jaime is taken, and his army for all purposes has ceased to exist. Thoros of Myr and Beric Dondarrion continue to plague our foraging parties. To our east we have the Arryns, Stannis Baratheon sits on Dragonstone, and in the south Highgarden and Storm's End are calling their banners."

 

You take the shadow baby out of play and Robb would have been in good shape. 

 

 

[Nittanian]

    And we know from Riverruns Maester that:

"Yes, my lady. His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear."

To be precise, it is one of Martyn Rivers' scouts who tells that to Cat, not Maester Vyman.

Riverrun is the castle & the castle alone. The surrounding area is the Riverlands.

Robb originally leaves Riverrun to deal with Stafford before his army can be trained and joined to Tywin, and he sends Theon to Pyke hoping to gain the Iron Fleet if Tywin doesn't make peace (ACOK Catelyn I). Meanwhile, he sends Cat south to Renly at Bitterbridge, hoping to have Renly fight Tywin. Neither Robb nor Renly are aware of Stannis's intentions at this point, and Renly only learns about his brother when a rider states that Storm's End is surprisingly under siege (ACOK Catelyn II).

The rivermen believe they are to protect Robb while he is in the west dealing with Stafford, and Edmure tells his sister that Tywin could be blocked by Riverrun and Harrenhal and then defeated once Robb returns (ACOK Catelyn V). The young king develops his plan to trap Tywin once he is already in the west and Renly has died, since he had expected Renly to fight Tywin in the east.

Regarding Riverrun, in AGOT Catelyn VIII, she says,

"Ser Rodrik is on his way north from White Harbor. I have named him castellan and commanded him to hold Winterfell till our return. Maester Luwin is a wise councellor, but unskilled in the arts of war."

An experienced soldier, Rodrik leaves Winterfell to deal with Torrhen's Square and Hornwood and Robb/Cat aren't mentioned as being critical of him for doing so.

Similarly, in ADWD Daenerys III, she says,

"I am only a young girl and know little of such things, but older, wiser men tell me that to hold Meereen I must control its hinterlands, all the land west of Lhazar as far south as the Yunkish hills."

Defending Meereen means controlling a wide swath of territory, not just the city itself. Defending Riverrun means using the natural defenses of the Red Fork and the Tumblestone to prevent the castle from being encircled (which already happened in AGOT and happens again in AFFC). Since Cat sees fighting from Riverrun itself, Lannisters are very close to the castle. The rivermen are going to defend the area to prevent the possibility of another siege and to prevent Tywin from marching on Robb at the Crag. If Edmure can win glory in the process and redeem his mistakes from AGOT, all the better in his eyes.

 

And there's no evidence that the castles he took in West were taken back before his death. I don't remember anything written about him not leaving anyone in the West (if there's something written that says this point me to it).

Tywin believes Robb is giving them up, at least. ASOS Tyrion III:

Mathis: "What do we know of Stark's plans and movement?

Tywin: "He has run back to Riverrun with his plunder, abandoning the castles he took in the west."

[Maxxine]

I'm not sure why this is the question asked and then people respond with "Robb's biggest mistake was..."

The biggest cause of Robb's demise is betrayal.  Betrayal by Roose to begin with, betrayal by Walder to end with.  It's pretty plain.  His marrying Jeyne was a slight to Walder no doubt, but it's unreasonable to think that had not Walder (and Roose as well) CHOSE to betray Robb in an even more egregious manner than Robb betrayed Walder, that amends could have been made and the alliance could've held strong and possibly even used to turn the tide against the Lannisters.  It is precisely his allies betrayal which was designed to end his life, not simply to break a marriage vow, that is the biggest cause of Robb's demise.  It is precisely that betrayal that is going to cost House Frey and hopefully House Bolton their houses and lives in the end.  I forsee one of them going the way of House Harren and Reyne along with all the others that tried to make the jump to more prominence in the realm by way of treachery.

Yes in a simplistic vacuum betrayal led to Robb's demise, but what led to the betrayals. The marriage to Jeyne and sending Theon. Does the Red Wedding happen if Robb marries a Frey? Maybe. Idk. But the Red Wedding was payback  for the mistake Robb made in marrying Jeyne.

But yes I definitely I hope Frey and Bolton get paid back in kind. I think Walder Frey just dies naturally before anything significant can happen. I mean he's over 90 right? He has to just die eventually. But after that I think they just kill every Frey w/ the exception Roslin.And as far as the Boltons I think just Roose & the heir Fat Walda is carrying are left. Since Ramsay is a bastard (although he should die too). I don't remember reading anything about nephews, cousins, or anything.

[Nittanian]

Yes in a simplistic vacuum betrayal led to Robb's demise, but what led to the betrayals. The marriage to Jeyne and sending Theon. Does the Red Wedding happen if Robb marries a Frey? Maybe. Idk. But the Red Wedding was payback  for the mistake Robb made in marrying Jeyne.

I agree. SSM:

We know that Roose Bolton had already taken Walda Frey to wife before Robb married Jeyne Westerling. Does this then mean that Walder Frey had already planned to ally himself with Bolton to murder Robb before Robb's marriage betrayal, or was his anger towards Robb and his reasoning towards his own family as to why Robb had to be killed more than just a pretext, and the genuine reason for the Red Wedding?

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm not sure why this is the question asked and then people respond with "Robb's biggest mistake was..."

The biggest cause of Robb's demise is betrayal.  [...]

If the biggest cause of Robb's demise was betrayal, then we should ask why. People didn't betray Tywin because they were afraid of him, which isn't the same as respect, btw. People though highly of Robb, but they neither respect them or were afraid of him. I don't see Karstark pulling the number he did with Ned Stark.

So yes, betrayal was a cause, but his own youth and inexperience fuelled that betrayal.

[Maxxine]

 

I agree. SSM:

 

I agree with you second quote. Lord Walder had suspect loyalty from the beginning. No question. But, would he have went to such extremes without the marriage to Jeyne. There's a big difference between just switching sides because you think the other side  is going win and luring someone to the Twins under the pretense of a wedding and slaughtering them when they didn't have weapons to defend themselves. At least in the former option Robb at least has the potential to live even if loses the war.

I have always been curious about the root of Roose's betrayal though? Was it because he thought Robb was going to lose? His marriage with Fat Walda? Remembering the long rooted rivalry between Bolton & Stark? Potential to become Warden of the North?

[Sullen]

The #1 reason why the North lost the war was... Stannis killing Renly, of course. If not for that Lannisters would had been beatable and Robb could (in most likelihood) made peace with Renly under some terms. After Stannis killed Renly and the Tyrells joined Lannisters it was pretty much game over.

Yeah, this, essentially.

Or, the obvious, him rebelling against the Iron Throne at all.

[kimim]

I'll confess that I never understood Robb's goal. I get the short term goal of freeing Riverrun. After that, though, what did he want? Who was he fighting? Is it the Lannisters, specifically, or has he declared war on the Iron throne? Does he want to take Casterly Rock? Does he want to take KL? If he's simply declaring independence, why not go back and build up his forces in the North?

What does he want???