What was Skahaz thinking?

[SpecialNedStark]

I've been pondering the theory that The Shavepate poisoned the locusts. It's a brilliant theory, and at this point I'd guess many fans consider it to be true. If nothing else it's clear that Hizdar had nothing to do with it. Even if he didn't do it, no one (save perhaps Quentyn

[bemused]

I don't think it's brilliant at all. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

If the locusts were intended to kill.. Skahaz couldn't hold power for long without Dany.

But I don't believe they were meant to kill , but only to  make sure Dany would abort in case she was pregnant by Daario. The GG and Hizdhar would not want their new dynasty to be founded on a bastard heir.

[Good Guy Garlan]

But he was probably very confident that Dany wasn't going to try something as gross as honeyed locusts, so he was targeting Hizdahr. It was a calculated risk, I think. 

Or...my personal crackpot: Gerris poisoned the locusts to get rid of Hizdahr so Dany could marry Quentyn. 

Potential evidence:

- "Poison was for cravens, women, and Dornishmen." -Victarion Greyjoy

- King Hizdahr backed away a step. "The locusts? That ... that was the Dornishman. Quentyn, the so-called prince. Ask Reznak if you doubt me."

"Have you proof of that? Has Reznak?"

"No, else I would have had them seized. Perhaps I should do so in any case. Marghaz will wring a confession out of them, I do not doubt. They're all poisoners, these Dornish. Reznak says they worship snakes."

It would be ironic if Hizdahr was right, but he only had the wrong Dornishman.

- Barristan thinks Gerris is "false coin", meaning he's shady and sneaky enough to use poison

- Gerris could move within the Meereen underbelly, as he got in touch with the Tattered Prince, so he could've arranged the poisoning of the locusts by himself

- As to where he might've gotten the poison, if not from someone in Meereen, then from maester Kedry, after he died, since maesters often carry poisons

 

[bemused]

That's interesting... but I don't think he'd have an easy time of getting to Hizdhar's confectioner..

[Lord Fauntleroy]

My own impression was that Skahaz did it. The dosage must have been light, so it was not intended to kill. I infer that because Belwas had to eat the entire fucking bowl to get as sick as he did. Dany would have maybe tried one or two before it got to her, and she would have gotten seriously ill but not died. 

With Dany being poisoned, Skahaz could say the Harpy was still trying to assassinate Dany and her party, thus continuing the assault on Skahaz's enemies. 

 

The Harpy and/or Green Grace and/or Hizdhar would gain nothing from poisoning Dany. They already had what they wanted and more.

 

More food for thought- Skahaz and his entire part of the plot was cut from the show. The locusts were cut from the show. However Hizdhar and the Harpies were still in the show. It's the same logic one can follow to assume that Mance wrote the pink letter- if the person doing the deed is cut, and then the deed in question is itself cut, we have a pretty good idea of who did it. 

[Taenqyrhae]

I agree with the theory that the poison locusts were not supposed to kill, but cause an abortion.  I don't think it was necessarily a misstep to use a "gross" food like honeyed locusts - in a lot of the world, they are considered a delicacy.  Salma Hayek eats roasted locusts every time she visits Mexico.  I don't recall any Westerosi describing a particular disgust with eating locusts (as opposed to eating fetal puppies), Dany mentions she doesn't care for them, but isn't like "Ew, gross, get those bugs away from me!"  She'd probably tried them and decided they aren't to her liking.  I probably wouldn't care for them either, as I'm told they taste just like shrimp and I am not a fan of shrimp.

 

[Protagoras]

Is it really so unlikely that the Harpy did it? Or a warmongering Yunkese?

Skahaz eventual power is based on Daenerys.

What if she had died from his poisoning? Seriously - it was nothing but luck that she didnt ate them and due to the body-size of her compared to Belwas I think it is reasonable to believe the locusts would have been lethal on her.

If she had died the Shavepate would have little power and most likely end up executed when their opposition scatter what´s left of Daenerys people (Who will lose heart after her death as well as having zero control over the dragons).

[bemused]

Protagoras.. yes, I think it's reasonable to believe they would have been lethal - if she gobbled up a lot of them (certainly if she ate them all, like Belwas). However, I don't think luck had anything to do with it.

Since the locusts would be a new delicacy to Dany (Hizdahr has to explain how they're prepared) there was no guarantee she would eat any of them, though it might be expected she would eat a few, just to be polite to her new hubby...This would be a very haphazard attempt at assassination. If the object really was to kill her, why not poison the dates and figs, instead? Dany is known to like them.

This is what makes me favour the abortifacient theory .. coupled with the earlier attempt to get Dany to eat the "special cake" (just for women)..after submitting to examination.. and with her later very abortion-like symptoms after eating the green berries.

If Dany was pregnant, and had eaten a polite few, she would have miscarried later. If she was not pregnant, she and anyone else who had eaten had eaten a polite few, would have suffered stomach cramps and diarrhea, later... It would all have seemed like a case of normal food poisoning ( e.g., everyone ate the shrimp cocktail..  )

 

Lord Fauntleroy.. I'm sure the GG and Hizdhar don't have everything they want ..yet. but they're probably pretty confident that they'll get it, because they've managed to manipulate Dany up to this point.

But what do they want ? They want the dragons dead. They want an heir from Dany (and maybe a spare).. (Then she can "sadly" die from some illness or accident). They want to become the new "Old Ghis". They want the return of slavery.

 

[Protagoras]

Protagoras.. yes, I think it's reasonable to believe they would have been lethal - if she gobbled up a lot of them (certainly if she ate them all, like Belwas). However, I don't think luck had anything to do with it.

Since the locusts would be a new delicacy to Dany (Hizdahr has to explain how they're prepared) there was no guarantee she would eat any of them, though it might be expected she would eat a few, just to be polite to her new hubby...This would be a very haphazard attempt at assassination. If the object really was to kill her, why not poison the dates and figs, instead? Dany is known to like them.

This is what makes me favour the abortifacient theory .. coupled with the earlier attempt to get Dany to eat the "special cake" (just for women)..after submitting to examination.. and with her later very abortion-like symptoms after eating the green berries.

If Dany was pregnant, and had eaten a polite few, she would have miscarried later. If she was not pregnant, she and anyone else who had eaten had eaten a polite few, would have suffered stomach cramps and diarrhea, later... It would all have seemed like a case of normal food poisoning ( e.g., everyone ate the shrimp cocktail..  )

Maybe that´s just me, but I doubt that a possible bastard from Daenerys was the reason for all this trouble. The GG could just demand that no pregnancy with Daario would be acceptable and besides - few seem to know about that coupling anyway.

Sure, maybe she only had eaten one or two, but maybe she liked the taste and ate say half or one-third of the bowl. Or maybe Drogon doesn´t arrive where he did and Daenerys is told that someone have tried to poison her. There is a significant risk and who will believe GG if she admits and tells that it was "only" to cause a miscarriage?

In fact - the risks here are simply to high for anything but an direct attack on Daenerys and the regime due to the likely aftermath the event will have.

Again - Daenerys simply have only one-fourth or one-fifth of Belwas body-mass. Even eating one-fourth of that bowl could have been enough.

[Fire Eater]

Skahaz was losing his power he gained with Hizdahr taking control as king. Poisoning the locusts was an act of desperation. Had she and Hizdahr been poisoned, he would blame the Yunkai'i and could rally her supporters to attack the Yunkish forces, an then be in control of two dragons, an army and the city of Meereen. 

[SpecialNedStark]

Still wondering why he didn't just break the 90 days of peace and keep Hizdar from ever becoming king l?

[Good Guy Garlan]

Still wondering why he didn't just break the 90 days of peace and keep Hizdar from ever becoming king l?

Interesting thought. I guess he could've ordered some of his goons to kill a couple Unsullied and blame it on the Harpy. Maybe...potential plot hole?

Well, I could fanwank it that his Shavepate followers wouldn't want to kill Unsullied or freed men, being freed men themselves, but I don't know.

[The Fattest Leech]

 

- Barristan thinks Gerris is "false coin", meaning he's shady and sneaky enough to use poison

This is gonna sound a little out there, but the "false coin" line just popped out at me. Since the plan was to have Daenerys and Viserys die a while back after marrying into the Dothraki, could this have been planned by either Ilyrio or Varys? Varys as Rugen did leave a "false" coin in the black cells when he let Tyrion escape. Could this be a link back to either one, or both, of them?

Ok, craziness over.

[Lord Varys]

Hizdahr was clearly in on the whole poisoning plot.

1. He didn't any of the locusts himself.

2. He offered them to Daenerys as a tasty dish.

3. He lied about not spicy food not agreeing with him (earlier on, when Dany hosts Hizdahr she has his favorite dish made which is very spicy).

4. And he was aware of the conspiracy's intention to blame Quentyn for the poisoning plot when Barristan confronted him about it (something he would never have come up with if he hadn't been briefed or even decided who the scapegoat should be - especially if he couldn't have been sure that Dany and not he himself had been the target).

Neither of the above would have been the case if Hizdahr had been unaware of the whole thing. Instead, Hizdahr would have been reasonably distraught, fearing that whoever had poisoned the locusts might have actually tried to poison him rather than Daenerys and would have reacted much more afraid, would perhaps even have filled with panic.

Skahaz most likely has his own plans in place to ensure his continued power, perhaps even to take over Meereen in the wake of all this tragedy, but nothing suggests it had anything to do with poisoning Daenerys. The city is completely controlled by him now, for instance. Barristan, the sellswords, the freed men companies, and the Unsullied all leave the city to fight the Yunkish allies. But the Brazen Beasts man the city walls. One does not have to be rocket scientist to predict that Barristan and his troops will have no chance to reenter the city should the battle turn against them - which it most likely will not, but still...

Back when Dany was still around Skahaz's only means to keep his power was through Daenerys, especially after she had married Hizdahr. Unless we assume Hizdahr and Skahaz are secret allies - which doesn't seem to make much sense plot-wise. Even if there was an agreement between Hizdahr/the Green Grace and Skahaz then the whole Shavepate movement would still have made Skahaz and his followers traitors and collaborators in the eyes of the public. Should the old guard of Meereen ever regain full power and control, people like Skahaz would be the first to be killed.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Heresy!  Skahaz is a true friend to Daenerys.  If she had listened to him he would solve all her problems.  Once Barry & Hizdar are dead The Shavepate, Vic, & Tyrion will put right the city in short order.  Skahaz is the Hero Mereen needs, but not the one it deserves right now.

[SpecialNedStark]

I find it extremely unlikely Hizdar was in on it. It just doesn't fit with the story or what we know of him as a character. This may be one Preston got right and it was a Mereneese noble attacking Belwas for revenge. Skahaz allowing the marriage to happen must simply be a plot hole bc i can't buy him not being willing to kill to reach his goals. He's a torturer and a bit blood thirsty, killing is not an issue for him.

[bemused]

Maybe that´s just me, but I doubt that a possible bastard from Daenerys was the reason for all this trouble. The GG could just demand that no pregnancy with Daario would be acceptable and besides - few seem to know about that coupling anyway.

Sure, maybe she only had eaten one or two, but maybe she liked the taste and ate say half or one-third of the bowl. Or maybe Drogon doesn´t arrive where he did and Daenerys is told that someone have tried to poison her. There is a significant risk and who will believe GG if she admits and tells that it was "only" to cause a miscarriage?

In fact - the risks here are simply to high for anything but an direct attack on Daenerys and the regime due to the likely aftermath the event will have.

Again - Daenerys simply have only one-fourth or one-fifth of Belwas body-mass. Even eating one-fourth of that bowl could have been enough.

The GG and Hizdhar obviously know about Dany and Daario. The little cup bearers are no doubt being regularly questioned by the GG, who is related to some of them...and I think that Dany giving birth to a child of Daario's would be a huge problem to GG and H.. It could undermine their own legitimacy in the eyes of their people.. If Dany gave birth to an obviously full term baby 6 - 7 months after the wedding, anyone would put 2 and 2 together.

Until they manage to fully take over, neither the GG or Hizdhar are in a position to make any demands of Dany.. After Dany refuses the examination and the "special" cake .. and after Daario kisses her in open court (probably his attempt to stop the marriage).. the GG comes close to making a demand and is rebuffed by Dany.

Throughout the events of that day at the fighting pit, Dany is very aware that she .. and she and Hizdhar as a couple.. are on show to the populace of Meereen. She wears her floppy ears, rides in a litter, rather than on her silver. ..She refuses to try the locusts when she sees how they are making Belwas sweat. ..No one would expect her to do more than nibble at any of the refreshments, anyway.(She has been seen to be a picky eater at all formal dinners.) If it looked like she was going to eat too many, there are many ways Hizdhar could have intervened..(e.g. spilling the bowl by "accident" .. eating one himself and declaring them to be "off", and no-one should eat any more.. etc., etc.)

I believe it would be too risky for them to attempt to kill Dany at this juncture (and an heir is everything). Not all the great families want Hizdhar as king. Many think one of their own would have been a better choice. How would Loraq be able to retain the throne at present .. without Dany, or without an heir and time to consolidate Loraq's power over the other families? (My bet is that we will find strong blood ties between Hizdhar's family and the GG's)

And again, if they truly wanted to kill her, she's known to eat figs and dates all the time. Why not poison what is the "choicest dish" for Dany ? ( to quote the Tattered Prince )

[Roswell]

I've been pondering the theory that The Shavepate poisoned the locusts. It's a brilliant theory, and at this point I'd guess many fans consider it to be true. If nothing else it's clear that Hizdar had nothing to do with it. Even if he didn't do it, no one (save perhaps Quentyn

Skahaz put everything at stake to side with Dany.  His family and the Loraq's were bitter rivals.  If he poisoned that locusts it was meant for Hizdahr as he knows Dany is not likely to partake of honeyed insects.  Roasted horsemeat is more to her liking.

[Protagoras]

 And again, if they truly wanted to kill her, she's known to eat figs and dates all the time. Why not poison what is the "choicest dish" for Dany ? ( to quote  the Tattered Prince )

Because those dishes might be pre-tasted just because Daenerys is known to eat them?

[bemused]

Because those dishes might be pre-tasted just because Daenerys is known to eat them?

We've seen no evidence of any of Dany's food being pre-tasted.. and she would have no reason to think her new husband, who provided the food ,might want to kill her, having just married her. If a taster was used, then I think the locusts would have been tasted as well. Everything including water and wine would have been tasted.

It really wasn't such a bad plan...Dany might have made a show of trying something so solicitously suggested by Hizdhar in public .. If she hadn't been put off by the sight of Belwas sweating so profusely. It was going to be a long hot afternoon; she wouldn't want to be sweating all over her floppy ears.

I find it extremely unlikely Hizdar was in on it. It just doesn't fit with the story or what we know of him as a character. This may be one Preston got right and it was a Mereneese noble attacking Belwas for revenge. Skahaz allowing the marriage to happen must simply be a plot hole bc i can't buy him not being willing to kill to reach his goals. He's a torturer and a bit blood thirsty, killing is not an issue for him.

It certainly fits with what I think we know (or can deduce) about his character.

He's extremely rich and powerful (rich from the proceeds of slavery), a persuasive speaker, well travelled with contacts (allies?) in many other states - so: used to moving in high diplomatic circles. He's fascinated (and probably sexually aroused) by bloody death. He's not a warrior himself, but loves to watch.. He's ambitious enough to want to be king, but even more than that, the first king in 1000 yrs. or more.. In fact, his dreams are of Empire..He's inspired by his tapestries that show the armies of Old Ghis defeating and subjugating Valyria. I think that speaks directly to his ambitions (and intentions for Dany).

Skahaz has no power to disallow Dany's marriage.. and I don't know what you think constitutes a plot hole.. (Sometimes, when that charge is made, it means that people simply haven't identified the plot correctly.) Why anyone would risk poisoning the Queen or her King to get at Belwas, who was just one guy in Dany's army.. defies logic, IMO. Sure, we saw Arya concentrating on the little fish when it was within her power to kill Tywin.. but she was about 9 yrs. old. Pahl is a whole house with adults at the helm, who have much more reason to blame Dany than Belwas for their state of affairs.

Of course Skahaz is willing to kill to reach his goals.. so are they all.. Much depends on what their goals are as to whether we see it as justified or not. How can we see Skahaz as any more bloodthirsty than the other Meereenese ? I'd say he's maybe less so than Hizdhar, who exhibits fascination and even lust for bloodshed and death. At least with Skahaz ,it's a means to an end (information, breaking the power of the slaving houses, etc.). Do we know that he's more of a torturer, or any worse than the norm (not only in Essos, but Westeros as well) ? No. (We see "sharp" questioning used in many places, even by Qhorin and the NW interrogating wildlings.)

Barristan insisted on questioning the confectioner himself and alone, before he'd agree to move against Hizdhar. He must have been satisfied that the information was not just something that had been tortured out of the man, because a chapter or two later, we see Barristan and Skahaz moving against Hizdhar together..