Why does shadowbinders fear Stygai?

[John Suburbs]

Have they? I've heard of dragon bones in IB and Sothoryos, but not in Westeros. Source?

[Jon Fossoway]

Shadowbinders can cast shadows, but them shadows may be  reflections of the real source. Stygai may be the physical force from where these shadow emanates. It must be f*** scary.

[Falcon2908]

Have they? I've heard of dragon bones in IB and Sothoryos, but not in Westeros. Source?

The World book says it all :

"Yet if men in the Shadow had tamed dragons first, why did they not conquer as the Valyrians did? It seems likelier that the Valyrian tale is the truest. But there were dragons in Westeros, once, long before the Targaryens came, as our own legends and histories tell us. "

 

[LordImp]

Funny how dragons originated in Asshai, and now the entire area is bathed in shadow, haunted by ghouls and demons. Then they showed up in Valyria and now the place is a firey wasteland, haunted by ghouls and demons.

It seems like wherever dragons have been, death and destruction follows.

Yes , dragons plants no trees. Im really starting to wonder if the Shadow is there to imprisonate the dragons. 

[Lordsteve666]

I'm of the opinion that dragons existed 1000's of years ago, a sort of evolution from dinosaurs or whatever Planetos had. The people who lived in the far east possibly tamed and bred these dragons, learning to use their power.

But then everything went tits-up with the Long Night destroying the Great Empire of the Dawn over there and the dragons all fled and knowledge of them was lost. No animal would willingly stay to live in a place that just got hit by the equivalent of a (magical) nuclear winter, all the humans fled west over the Bone Mountains after all.

Years later the Valyrians find dragons living wild in the mountains and manage to tame them again and use their power to build a mighty empire. I suspect the knowledge to tame the dragons came from either being helped by descendants of the GEotD or maybe the Valyrians were those descendants and simply "knew" what to do, some sort of racial memory of how they used to live.

[Durran Durrandon]

I'm of the opinion that dragons existed 1000's of years ago, a sort of evolution from dinosaurs or whatever Planetos had. The people who lived in the far east possibly tamed and bred these dragons, learning to use their power.

But then everything went tits-up with the Long Night destroying the Great Empire of the Dawn over there and the dragons all fled and knowledge of them was lost. No animal would willingly stay to live in a place that just got hit by the equivalent of a (magical) nuclear winter, all the humans fled west over the Bone Mountains after all.

Years later the Valyrians find dragons living wild in the mountains and manage to tame them again and use their power to build a mighty empire. I suspect the knowledge to tame the dragons came from either being helped by descendants of the GEotD or maybe the Valyrians were those descendants and simply "knew" what to do, some sort of racial memory of how they used to live.

I figure something along these lines. There is no reason that the folks in the Great Empire of the Dawn might now have found dragons in the Shadowland or elsewhere and raised them. Them clearly they did have a great empire and dragons might have been part of that conquest regardless of the maesterly dismissal None of this makes wild dragons roaming the land impossible, even before the Long Night.

[John Suburbs]

The World book says it all :

"Yet if men in the Shadow had tamed dragons first, why did they not conquer as the Valyrians did? It seems likelier that the Valyrian tale is the truest. But there were dragons in Westeros, once, long before the Targaryens came, as our own legends and histories tell us. "

 

Thanks, I missed that. I guess it should be: whenever men gain control of dragons, the results are not good for men.

[Jon Fossoway]

I'm of the opinion that dragons existed 1000's of years ago, a sort of evolution from dinosaurs or whatever Planetos had. The people who lived in the far east possibly tamed and bred these dragons, learning to use their power.

But then everything went tits-up with the Long Night destroying the Great Empire of the Dawn over there and the dragons all fled and knowledge of them was lost. No animal would willingly stay to live in a place that just got hit by the equivalent of a (magical) nuclear winter, all the humans fled west over the Bone Mountains after all.

Years later the Valyrians find dragons living wild in the mountains and manage to tame them again and use their power to build a mighty empire. I suspect the knowledge to tame the dragons came from either being helped by descendants of the GEotD or maybe the Valyrians were those descendants and simply "knew" what to do, some sort of racial memory of how they used to live.

Agreed. Let's consider, in eastern essos, the city of the "winged men" and whatever that may mean. There is also the Dry Deep where is a city, as I recall, that trades in bones they collect from the Deep. Dragon bones? Just south of Bonetown, the World Book tells us about dragons living near Stygai, so reports are pretty consistent about this: there are creatures that COULD be dragons in eastern essos. 

 

Must be wild and untamable as heck tho.

[LordImp]

What If the dragons is somehow trapped in the Shadowlands , the Shadow is working as some kind of prison , similiar to how the Wall is keeping the Others away the shadow is keeping the dragons away. 

[Durran Durrandon]

What If the dragons is somehow trapped in the Shadowlands , the Shadow is working as some kind of prison , similiar to how the Wall is keeping the Others away the shadow is keeping the dragons away. 

The shadow is more like the wall of light Bran sees at the Heart of Winter than the Wall.

[LordImp]

The shadow is more like the wall of light Bran sees at the Heart of Winter than the Wall.

Hmmm , can explain a bit more? 

[Falcon2908]

There is no reason that the folks in the Great Empire of the Dawn might now have found dragons in the Shadowland or elsewhere and raised them. None of this makes wild dragons roaming the land impossible, even before the Long Night.

Dragons and Wyverns are closely related. (Some say that Dragons are the product of Wyverns and Fire Wyrms).

In that case, why are the wyverns of Sothoryos found only in Sothoryos? Why haven't they flown north to the basilisk isles? Why haven't they been found in Westeros or Essos?

[Falcon2908]

Agreed. Let's consider, in eastern essos, the city of the "winged men" and whatever that may mean. There is also the Dry Deep where is a city, as I recall, that trades in bones they collect from the Deep. Dragon bones? Just south of Bonetown, the World Book tells us about dragons living near Stygai, so reports are pretty consistent about this: there are creatures that COULD be dragons in eastern essos. 

 

Must be wild and untamable as heck tho.

I always thought the city of Winged men was a city containing scientific experiments from the days of the GEoTD. These scientific experiments are the winged men- a union of men and dragons. This is because the winged men have leathern wings and are able to fly. Leathern wings reminds me of dragons' wings. They are both leathery

[Durran Durrandon]

Hmmm , can explain a bit more? 

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea . . . to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise. Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal . . . he looked past the Wall . . . and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks. Now you know , the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live . (GoT 173-174)

I think the parallel between the Shadow and the Curtain of light is pretty clear in the construction. I don't know what Bran saw in the Heart of Winter that made him cry, but I am sure something similar is in the Shadow.

[LordImp]

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea . . . to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise. Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal . . . he looked past the Wall . . . and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks. Now you know , the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live . (GoT 173-174)

I think the parallel between the Shadow and the Curtain of light is pretty clear in the construction. I don't know what Bran saw in the Heart of Winter that made him cry, but I am sure something similar is in the Shadow.

Ahh yes , now i understand. Heart of winter and the Shadow paralells each other yes. But still i belive Asshai or something around there has the same purpose as the Wall , keeping something out. If the Shadow is a paralell to the heart of winter , then there is something in the that paralells the Others. Dragons , fire others or shadows? 

[Durran Durrandon]

Ahh yes , now i understand. Heart of winter and the Shadow paralells each other yes. But still i belive Asshai or something around there has the same purpose as the Wall , keeping something out. If the Shadow is a paralell to the heart of winter , then there is something in the that paralells the Others. Dragons , fire others or shadows? 

The most direct parallel with the wall is Five Forts, which protects Yi Ti and originally the Great Empire of the Dawn from the Grey waste. Though, I will concede that Melisandre draws a parallel between the Wall and Asshai in terms of how they affect her power.

[LordImp]

The most direct parallel with the wall is Five Forts, which protects Yi Ti and originally the Great Empire of the Dawn from the Grey waste. Though, I will concede that Melisandre draws a parallel between the Wall and Asshai in terms of how they affect her power.

Yes. But to be hounest i dont think Five forts are important. I guess they just protect against monsters in Grey waste , maybe some genetic experiments. 

[TheSovereignGrave]

Yes. But to be hounest i dont think Five forts are important. I guess they just protect against monsters in Grey waste , maybe some genetic experiments. 

Well by all accounts, the Grey Waste doesn't look like it should exist naturally. It's roughly as far north as the Vale if memory serves, and yet it's a freezing desert. My personal theory is that it's the home of Essosi Others.

[LordImp]

Well by all accounts, the Grey Waste doesn't look like it should exist naturally. It's roughly as far north as the Vale if memory serves, and yet it's a freezing desert. My personal theory is that it's the home of Essosi Others.

Others or something similar? 

[TheSovereignGrave]

Others or something similar? 

Actual Others. Just like how I believe the Ifequevron were probably Essosi Children of the Forest.

Well, at least species-wise. There were likely some cultural differences between Westerosi Children and Ifequevron, so if there are Others in the Grey Waste, they're likely not exactly the same as those in the Land of Always Winter.