Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 I just finished a book by an Afgani Journalist named Tamim Ansary called Destiny Disrupted: A History of the World through Islamic Eyes. It was fascinating. The author posits that Muslims have an entirely different view of world history from those of us in the West. From the afterword: The conflict wracking the world is not, I think, best understood as a "clash of civilizations," if that proposition means we're-different-so-we-must-fight-until-there's-only-one-of-us. It's better understood as the friction generated by two mismatched world histories intersecting. Muslims were a crowd of people going somewhere. Europeans and their offshoots were a crowd of people going somewhere. When the two crowds crossed paths, much bumping and crashing resulted, and the crashing is still going on.Unraveling the vectors of the two different crowds is a minimum precondition for sorting out the doctrinal basis of today's disputes. The unraveling will not produce sweetness and light, because there are actual incompatablities here, not just "misunderstandings"....“In Islam the emphasis was not on the personal salvation of the isolated soul but on construction of the perfect community. People were not sinners to be saved but servants enjoined to obedience.” It is not the most optimistic work I've ever read and it was published in 2009 before the rise of the Daesh. I started reading it before the Paris attacks. The title "Destiny Disrupted" does a good job encapuslating the Ansary's view of the Muslim perspective of the last three hundred years of World History.Does he have a point is Islamic culture fundamentally incompatible with modernity as it is seen in the West?Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Scot, I don't think you have given enough information or the correct quotes here for me to be sure Ansary IS saying that Islamic culture is "fundamentally incompatible" with "modernity". How is "modernity" defined in that proposition? The quotes you do give seem to me to focus on a difference between individualism and collectivism. There are plenty of societies way less individualistic and more collectivistic than the English speaking cultures out there which I nevertheless think are quite "modern" -- Japan and South Korea being two obvious examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 Ormond,He talks about the sense of Destiny among Muslims that Islam's supremicy is the end point of history and that some, not all, view the West's rise as little different from the Mongol invasions that ended the Abassid Caliphate. He mentions a few specifics in particular he zero's in on the role of women in Islamic culture as opposed to the West:And I must say I don't see how a single society can be constructed in which some citizens think the whole world should be divided into a woman's realm and a man's realm, and others think the genders should be blended into a single realm where men and women walk the same streets, shop the same shops, eat at the same restaurants, sit together in the same classrooms, and do the same jobs. It can be only one or the other. It can't be both from where I stand, I don't see how Muslims can live in the West, under the laws and customs of Western societies, if they embrace that divided-world view, nor how Westerners can live in the Muslim world as anything but visitors, if they embrace that genders-shuffled-together view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 He does give other examples like the incompatibility of division between chuch and state (or mosque and state) when legal traditions are fundamentally religious.I'd give more examples but I'm thumb typing these quotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 I think there are many Muslims do NOT "think the whole world should be divided into a woman's realm and a man's realm," Certainly that's not how most people in Turkey or Indonesia operate, and I doubt if that's common in Bangladesh either. Plus there are still some non-Muslims in the West who would like such a society. I don't see that there is anything about Islam as a religion that requires that "two worlds" view of the sexes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 He does give other examples like the incompatibility of division between chuch and state (or mosque and state) when legal traditions are fundamentally religious.I'd give more examples but I'm thumb typing these quotes.I think this might be one of the biggest differences between our way of life and the practitioners of Islam, at least in modern America. I know that it irks conservative christians just as much, but we have the rule of law based on the interpretation of set rules by man, not divine guidance. Not to mention the huge strides we are making in social equality (I know it's not quick enough for some of you). Islam isn't a faith that treats women, non CIS folk, and other religions all that well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 I think there are many Muslims do NOT "think the whole world should be divided into a woman's realm and a man's realm," Certainly that's not how most people in Turkey or Indonesia operate, and I doubt if that's common in Bangladesh either. Plus there are still some non-Muslims in the West who would like such a society. I don't see that there is anything about Islam as a religion that requires that "two worlds" view of the sexes. Sure, just like there are some Christians that don't believe the anti christ is going to come and burn the world to the ground. Doesn't mean it's not a main theme of their faith. The Quran and Hadiths, point blank, lay out the women's role in society. To the point of separation from the 'mans realm'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 Ormond,He's not claiming "all". He is secular Muslim, he mentions in the preface that his brother is much more devout. His point is that many (not all) devout Muslims share a view of gender roles that is fundamentally incompatiable with Western norms. That such incompatiable makes and accomidation between conservative Islam and the West difficult if not impossible. Either those conservative Muslims must change their views or the West must. It's, as he says, not a matter of misunderstanding but a fundamental disconnect between many Muslims and the West.How can such a disagreement be bridged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Well, but some might say there's a similar disagreement about cultural views and norms between left and right wing as well. Those most strongly held positions on abortion, birth control, gay marriage, immigration, minimum wage and so on might say that the people on the other side of the spectrum have views that are fundamentally incompatible with (what is held to be) Western, American values. Accommodation for conservatives is difficult... if not impossible... as a result of this incompatibility. So clearly, either conservatives must change their views... or the rest of us must. And yet we can all live together, can put up a (technically) functioning government and live in a society with rule of law.The same is true for Muslims and non-Muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Ormond,He's not claiming "all". He is secular Muslim, he mentions in the preface that his brother is much more devout. His point is that many (not all) devout Muslims share a view of gender roles that is fundamentally incompatiable with Western norms. That such incompatiable makes and accomidation between conservative Islam and the West difficult if not impossible. Either those conservative Muslims must change their views or the West must. It's, as he says, not a matter of misunderstanding but a fundamental disconnect between many Muslims and the West.How can such a disagreement be bridged?Why does it have to be bridged necessarily? If you were a devout Muslim, why would you want to emigrate to the West and be subjected to a social model that you couldn't stomach? And vice-versa for a Westerner. We have to be able to communicate and negotiate with one another, and conduct business with one another, but outside of that I'm not sure that it has to progress past that point. There are plenty of governments and societies that are more or less diametrically opposed to Western models of government and society, yet we do business together, exchange cultural arts, etc, etc. I think China and the U.S. is a pretty good example of this, wherein neither side really accepts the other sides form of government, or societal norms, yet mutually beneficial business is conducted between the two societies despite the differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Kooky fundamentalist Islam is a comparatively recent phenomenon. Fifty years ago, Arabic radicalism was unswervingly secular.(And for those adamant that Islam and the West cannot get along - I take it you use Roman numerals for dates and calculation, rather than our modern Arabic ones? The West would not exist in its current state without the influence of Islam). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted November 21, 2015 Author Share Posted November 21, 2015 RBPL,He discusses secular modernists like Nasser and Assad in the closing chapters of the book and points out how they are losing ground to Islamic Fundamentialists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 The Quran and Hadiths, point blank, lay out the women's role in society. To the point of separation from the 'mans realm'. And The Old Testament is quite clear on slavery too.Leviticus 25: 44-46:Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.How many Jews (or Christians who appeal to The Old Testament) advocate slavery these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 I think there are many Muslims do NOT "think the whole world should be divided into a woman's realm and a man's realm," Certainly that's not how most people in Turkey or Indonesia operate, and I doubt if that's common in Bangladesh either. Plus there are still some non-Muslims in the West who would like such a society. I don't see that there is anything about Islam as a religion that requires that "two worlds" view of the sexes. I don't know about Turkey. From what I understand, the people in Istanbul and Ankara can be quite secular, but Erdogan keeps getting reelected for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonesy Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 It's been a long time since I've been there, but Jakarta, Bali, Jebel-Ali, Dubai, Bahrain, I guess Kuwait, didn't seem "incompatible" with the West.And who fricking knows how Iraq ends up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Ser Scot,One, Muslims in the U.S. somehow seem to make it work. Two, I was going to state something similar to what Ormond stated. Basically, that Muslims who live in strict Islamic countries would think that women and men should be separate, with women in a subservient role, and that Islam and the west are incompatible.I also find it odd that Christianity gets credit for womens' advancement. How many female Catholic priests are there? Or women preachers of any kind? Not many, if any. Western society has arrived where it is today, not because of Christianity, but because they took on and battled Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Ser Scot,One, Muslims in the U.S. somehow seem to make it work. Two, I was going to state something similar to what Ormond stated. Basically, that Muslims who live in strict Islamic countries would think that women and men should be separate, with women in a subservient role, and that Islam and the west are incompatible.I also find it odd that Christianity gets credit for womens' advancement. How many female Catholic priests are there? Or women preachers of any kind? Not many, if any. Western society has arrived where it is today, not because of Christianity, but because they took on and battled Christianity.To the first bit, that's the easy part. A Muslim in the U.S. is free to live his or her life pretty much as they see fit. That'a what the U.S. is all about. As long as you're not breaking any laws. To the second, I think you have to separate Catholicism and Christianity for starters. Can only speak for the U.S., but Catholicism is hardly even relevant here, as far as I can tell. Protestantism is far more prevalent. And many protestant religions embrace female priests and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 To the second, I think you have to separate Catholicism and Christianity for starters. Can only speak for the U.S., but Catholicism is hardly even relevant here, as far as I can tell. Protestantism is far more prevalent. And many protestant religions embrace female priests and the like.Catholics are (1) Christian, and (2) account for over 20% of the US population, making the Catholic Church the largest single religious denomination in America.Worldwide, of course, Catholicism and Islam are the two largest religions on the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manhole Eunuchsbane Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Catholics are (1) Christian, and (2) account for over 20% of the US population, making the Catholic Church the largest single religious denomination in America.Worldwide, of course, Catholicism and Islam are the two largest religions on the planet.I know that's the number that gets thrown around, but I swear I know like 2 Catholics, and both of them are reformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonesy Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 You live in the Bay Area.Having spent most of my life there, I don't know that I knew any Catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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