Islam and the West, fundamentally incompatible?

[Mr Fixit]

Saudi Arabia is not - to put it mildly - a force for promoting humane and pluralist Islamic thought but neither is it the sole source of jihadist ideology.

No, it isn't, but it has also grown enormously rich and internationally influential in part thanks to a rock-solid strategic alliance with the world's dominant superpower.

[Horza]

It's grown enormously right and internationally influential because of oil, never more so than when it fell in line behind the Shah of Iran's call to double the price of oil at the December 1973 OPEC summit. Alliances are tricky business, even rock-solid ones. 

[Biglose]

Saudi Arabia is not - to put it mildly - a force for promoting humane and pluralist Islamic thought but neither is it the sole source of jihadist ideology.

Well, at least in germany turkish organisations are also playing a role in that mix today. But Since 9/11 there has been a well established connection between jahdists and Saudi mosques in europe... It is hard to find any kind of islamist in europe who is not connected to saudi money. (Unless he or she is connected to turkish money, that is)

It is not muslims, not islam, it is not really discrimination it is not unemployment (those all have their own set of problems of course and might add to it) the root is that we imported it and ignored its grow.

[Mladen]

When it comes to business and money, nothing is incompatible... 

[Ramsay Gimp]

Sam Harris has the right of it

[The Fallen]

That Islam can be used by extremists to commit horrible acts? I agree.

Did you read about that Muslim extremist, Robert Dear, who shot up that abortion clinic?

[Ramsay Gimp]

That Islam can be used by extremists to commit horrible acts? I agree.

Did you read about that Muslim extremist, Robert Dear, who shot up that abortion clinic?

I heard he was a transgender leftist, actually. 

But regarding Harris, he phrases his main point regarding Islam this way: "The only problem with Islamic fundamentalism is the fundamentals of Islam." A religion that doesn't advocate violence and oppression has a much lower chance of resulting in mass violence and oppression

[TerraPrime]

I heard he was a transgender leftist, actually. 

But regarding Harris, he phrases his main point regarding Islam this way: "The only problem with Islamic fundamentalism is the fundamentals of Islam." A religion that doesn't advocate violence and oppression has a much lower chance of resulting in mass violence and oppression

And yet, Christianity managed/manages. Kudos to the Christians for succeeding under such severe handicaps of the NT.

[The Fallen]

I heard he was a transgender leftist, actually. 

Who was robbing a bank and hid out at the PP.

But regarding Harris, he phrases his main point regarding Islam this way: "The only problem with Islamic fundamentalism is the fundamentals of Islam." A religion that doesn't advocate violence and oppression has a much lower chance of resulting in mass violence and oppression

Here's the thing though. The numbers just don't back up that claim. 

If we counted up the number of jihadists in the world, including IS and Al Qaeda and all the other groups; what number would we arrive at? 100,000? Which means that more than 99.99999% of Muslims aren't extremists.

I'm not defending extremists, but I can't condemn a movement because a micro-minority are sadistic bastards.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Who was robbing a bank and hid out at the PP.

Here's the thing though. The numbers just don't back up that claim. 

If we counted up the number of jihadists in the world, including IS and Al Qaeda and all the other groups; what number would we arrive at? 100,000? Which means that more than 99.99999% of Muslims aren't extremists.

I'm not defending extremists, but I can't condemn a movement because a micro-minority are sadistic bastards.

But terrorists aren't the only issue. A Muslim can condemn terrorism but still approve of strict misogyny, executing apostates, persecuting homosexuals, etc. Many Muslims do.  

[The Fallen]

We can go back and forth with examples for and against. Religion, like all movements, goes through phases. So are we supposed to convert all Muslims into Christians? What is the ultimate goal of the Sam Harris types?

ETA:

Also, a lot of what we see is political leaders using extremist groups to achieve specific goals. In that sense, a lot of the stuff we see is political rather than religious. Crixus has given us examples from Pakistan.

ETA2:

And I've posted previously about the serious issues we have in this country with violence (including murder) against women, gays and transgender. In Germany they were burning down housing for refugees. And at least with rape, conservative Christians try to minimize both rape and it's effects on the victims.

All right, that's it for me. I'm operating on three hours of sleep and all my thoughts seem jumbled.

[all swedes are racist]

But terrorists aren't the only issue. A Muslim can condemn terrorism but still approve of strict misogyny, executing apostates, persecuting homosexuals, etc. Many Muslims do. 

Right on. Thankfully misogyny, homophobia, and religious fascism is the sole provenance of Islam. Really makes it easy to tell who the real bad guys are

[Biglose]

Right on. Thankfully misogyny, homophobia, and religious fascism is the sole provenance of Islam. Really makes it easy to tell who the real bad guys are

Isn't that a bid silly? I mean you could also go about "Right on. Thankfully racism and fanatism is the sole provenance of the Nazis. Really makes it easy to tell who the bad guys are."

Yes, if I do not address for scale everything becomes equal. If "I do not want to bake a cake for a guy couple" is the same as "we should hang them" which is then the same as actually doing it.

But my guess is that it is only a coincidence that the LGBT community in germany gets called more and more racist. Or maybe there is just something wrong with them in general (I mean their sexuality is off too) and that makes them racist. I mean that there might be an actual problem or that they would have sincere fears, well that would be just redicules. (For those immune to sarcasm thats the thing)

[Uncia]

A Muslim can condemn terrorism but still approve of strict misogyny,

Here we go again...sigh.
I guess you skippd my post on the last page... i'll repost it for you : 

 

"Does he have a point is Islamic culture fundamentally incompatible with modernity as it is seen in the West?"

No. Yes.
No, Islam is not incompatible with modernity. Heck, we all live in Anno 2015, with our tablets, apps, vines, gifs, and online matchmaking sites.
Yes, Islam is incompatible with the West, like water and oil.
But that doesn't mean that we have to be at each other's throats.
Some good points in the thread, with the notable exception of the uneducated comments about women.
It's just too easy to take the moral high ground, given the condition of the women in the West.
Ever read #YesAllWomen ? Informative....
There is a reason why the West produced feminism.
Very good patriarcal reasons...
And ongoing stuff like unequal pay, unequal political representation, unequal domestic workload, sexual harassment, rape, pornography, sex trafficking, domestic violence (how many deaths ??), obstretrical abuse, absence of paid leave (denial of motherhood, in essence), objectification of women in culture (from hollywood to fashion to markting) etc,
and the myriad of consequenses these have, like depression, PTSD, self-harm including anorexia and bulimia, suicide...  
So western people harping about women's rights in other cultures, always strikes me as kinda funny. And majorly hypocritical.

 

 

[Biglose]

Here we go again...sigh.
I guess you skippd my post on the last page... i'll repost it for you : 

 

"Does he have a point is Islamic culture fundamentally incompatible with modernity as it is seen in the West?"

No. Yes.
No, Islam is not incompatible with modernity. Heck, we all live in Anno 2015, with our tablets, apps, vines, gifs, and online matchmaking sites.
Yes, Islam is incompatible with the West, like water and oil.
But that doesn't mean that we have to be at each other's throats.
Some good points in the thread, with the notable exception of the uneducated comments about women.
It's just too easy to take the moral high ground, given the condition of the women in the West.
Ever read #YesAllWomen ? Informative....
There is a reason why the West produced feminism.
Very good patriarcal reasons...
And ongoing stuff like unequal pay, unequal political representation, unequal domestic workload, sexual harassment, rape, pornography, sex trafficking, domestic violence (how many deaths ??), obstretrical abuse, absence of paid leave (denial of motherhood, in essence), objectification of women in culture (from hollywood to fashion to markting) etc,
and the myriad of consequenses these have, like depression, PTSD, self-harm including anorexia and bulimia, suicide...  
So western people harping about women's rights in other cultures, always strikes me as kinda funny. And majorly hypocritical.

 

 

You are aware that this is a kind of argumentation which works always? You can also defend Nazis with that.

Espacially since you conflate actual culture with wealth. I can be a mysagonist and still pay maternal leave. Unequal pay is another thing which is more fiction than fact in terms of men vS women. (Since it is (at least in germany) due to union negotiated pay impossible in many jobs.)(and the underlying issues have much more to do with how our economical system works then with how women are regarded)

Then pornography... Well if you consider this in general anti women is your personal point of view put not any objective one.

And objectification in holloywood is open for both genders. Lets remember Bruce willis I am still ripped action. (And this guy is actually on the top and one would assume would not need to prove stuff like that. But still he felt it to be needed)  In the end this is about the body cult we have in the west. This has not really something to do with women rights or how we see women. You might argue that we are superficial. (But on the other hand you can also quite nicly justify the body cult on a philosophical and even medical level...At least in its lesser forms.)

So basically your argument burns down to, our society is not perfect so we should not judge. This is a nice thing if your borders are closed. But you can immagine how hollow it sounds the second you might experiance cultural change. "Sure it might happen that you can't leave the house anymore without a male protector, but hey women are today objectified in hollywood... "(Most women I know would probably hit me for something like that)

Because what you do is very much the definition of sexism. Let me guess, you would never make a similar argument about racism or basically anything, now would you? Look, I do not think we shoud judge the guys of the KKK, I mean we are racist too in so many ways...

So to be honest, you strike me as hypocritical...

[peterbound]

Who was robbing a bank and hid out at the PP.

Here's the thing though. The numbers just don't back up that claim. 

If we counted up the number of jihadists in the world, including IS and Al Qaeda and all the other groups; what number would we arrive at? 100,000? Which means that more than 99.99999% of Muslims aren't extremists.

I'm not defending extremists, but I can't condemn a movement because a micro-minority are sadistic bastards.

That's also 99.999999% of Muslims that are doing very, very little to stop the other .00001% (most major intelligence agencies put that number closer to 350,000 just in Europe alone that are 'prone to radicalization', and while thats a little less then one percent, thats still more people than in the US Air Force, and almost twice the number of the Marine Corps) .  Condemnation after the fact?  Too late. If that is the case, and we know where the radicalization lays, what does the rest of the muslim community not endeavor to put a stop to it's more extreme brethren?  Why does it take a shit ton of foreign governments, half way across the world to keep this radicalized version of their faith in check?  For many that's where a lot of the problem lies.  Non action starts to equate to acceptance. Tactically, culturally, financially, philosophically all the nations that are comprised of more moderate muslims are better set to influence and if needed battle the 'sadistic bastards' that have now come to represent their faith around the world. Yet they do almost nothing, and if many reports are to believed they may even support them.  Hell, even the ones that do 'help' only do so because of a strong american presence in their area.  Turkey has a huge american base that influences their actions, and Qatar has the 'died that is smack in the middle of it.  Even with that, there are reports of huge financial supports for wealthy Qatari backers.  FFS, Pakistan was housing bin laden for years before we killed him, probably with backing from at least it's intelligence agency. 

That numbers thing is tricky, especially when you have a faith hat has about 1.5 billion people in it (almost a quarter of the entire population). It also starts to get blurred with the fact that maybe not all of those 99.999% want to fight, but some of them might agree with enough of the ideas of the jihadists that they are willing to back it financially or in the living room at home.  That's starts to create problems as well. 

And as for incompatibility, there are culturally issues that have been wrapped up in islam that may or may not have originated with the faith, but to the west (or at least some of us that have been over there) seem completely incompatible, and inseparable from the islam. Bacha Bazi, female testimony in court, taxation of other people of the book, limited separation of church and state, modern views with regards to Judaism, actual freedom to practice other religions, freedom of speech are just some of the things that are bound up with islam that would not be compatible with your average, middle american. 

[TerraPrime]

But terrorists aren't the only issue. A Muslim can condemn terrorism but still approve of strict misogyny, executing apostates, persecuting homosexuals, etc. Many Muslims do.  

Yes. And how is that incompatible with Western societies, when we have Pat Robertsons, Fred Phelps, and a whole truck load of fringe evangelical cults?

[The guy from the Vale]

I'd argue that those guys are incompatible with the modern Western world. But this just shows that we can actually tolerate those people, even when they're close to a majority. The handwringing over foreigners (mainly Muslims) not "sharing our values" when we can't even really get all of us to agree to those values is at best hypocritical.

[Sullen]

Yes. And how is that incompatible with Western societies, when we have Pat Robertsons, Fred Phelps, and a whole truck load of fringe evangelical cults?

To be completely fair, Pat Robertson, the Phelps (Fred is dead IIRC), and the rest of the fringe Christians are also rather incompatible with Western society, and they constantly get a shitheap of criticism for it.

Also, talking about "Islam" in general is too vague if you as me, dogmas are too diverse to generalize, a Nizari Ismaili sure as hell isn't going to agree with a Wahhabist, for instance. It's OK to criticize Islam, but one should specify which sect/branch they disagree with when doing so.

[Uncia]

"Sure it might happen that you can't leave the house anymore without a male protector, but hey women are today objectified in hollywood...

See, this is what i'm talking about. Fantasies of misogyny not grounded in any facts.