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First Men, Andals, Rhoynar, Valyrians, Ironborn: Separate Species?


StarkofWinterfell

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I've always wondered if all these different peoples are in fact separate subspecies of humans, or were at some point. For genealogical evidence of such a thing, we need look no farther than the Cro-Magnons and the Neaderthals, which both belong to the Homo sapiens species. (Cro-Magnons are Homo sapiens sapiens while Neanderthals are Homo sapiens neanderthalis). And due to the fact that we know Cro-Magnons and Neaderthals interbred, a feat only possible by members of the same species, we can roll with this as scientific fact. We also have the example of Homo sapiens idaltu, another subspecies closely related to our own.

So why do I think this you may ask? My reasoning for such is that we have the First Men, Andals, Rhoynar, Valyrians, Ironborn, etc. who each migrated to Westeros from Essos much like we have the different species of hominids migrating out of Africa into Europe, Asia, and the rest of the world. (I use this as a comparison not as a piece of evidence) However, compounded by the fact that people of First Men descent always claim "I have the blood of the First Men," and we can start to scratch our heads. If "blood" and by extension DNA make us who we are, then it is my opinion that in-universe, people know that they are somewhat different, whether they be Andal or First Men or whoever else. And without a huge scientific community in Westeros, they haven't gotten into DNA testing or Mendel genetics just yet

GRRM seems to almost allude to the possibility of subspecies in this 1999 chat:

 

If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are well, neith Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man. http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

This is curious, especially with the use of the word "interbreeding," and by saying hardly anyone is "pure" Andal or First Man. This has me quite intrigued and I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. 

 

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I think its more like human evolution in that we all come from the same place. Much like Noah and Abraham from the bible, the same disaster and man rebuilding and a father of many faiths figure/legend is very much a part of Asoiaf. 

I have the theory that all of these groups, Valyrians, Andals, Rhoynar, etc, come from this mythic figure who was born of the gods. 

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"A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms where two hybrids are capable of reproducing fertile offspring, typically using sexual reproduction."

All evidence converges to all of them being just different ethnic groups of the same species.

Ibbenese, though, might be a different human species.

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"A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms where two hybrids are capable of reproducing fertile offspring, typically using sexual reproduction."

All evidence converges to all of them being just different ethnic groups of the same species.

Ibbenese, though, might be a different human species.

Indeed, they could all be the same species; however, I believe the subspecies is where they diverge. The Ibbenese could well be an entirely different species but still part of the same genus.

I stake this claim on the fact that it is not considered interbreeding when members of different ethnic groups produce offspring, but GRRM states that the First Men and Andals interbred.

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I stake this claim on the fact that it is not considered interbreeding when members of different ethnic groups produce offspring, but GRRM states that the First Men and Andals interbred.

Thats because we dont generally use the term "breed" when we are talking about humans, It sets us up us being equals to animals, which we want to distance ourselves from, as we are more advanced than most animals. The Andals and First men "interbreed" in the same way Scottish and English people interbreed, you can use the term for any two or more groups who set themselves apart from one another.

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Well firstly, I'm pretty sure that most biologists classify neanderthals as Homo neanderthalensis, and it's a minority who consider them a subspecies of Homo sapiens. And biologically, by this point there's likely pretty much zero difference between the Andals and the First Men (discounting those like the Sakgosi and Wildlings who haven't mixed with Andals much) thanks to all the interbreeding among the groups. They're all the same species, they're just different races. Of course I'm not saying that there aren't other species of humans; the Ibbenese and possibly the Brindlemen seem evidence of that. But most of the races we actually see are just that: races, not subspecies.

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Considering that the differences between inhabitants of the Seven Kingdoms don't seem any more prominent than between, say, neighbors in modern-day London (should've said "neighbours", I think?), and that no particular obstacles to interbreeding were mentioned, and that there's no conspicuous literary point - nope. With damn high confidence.

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I wouldn't say any are subspecies of Humans. I would say some are of different Race though. Andals and Firstmen are very similar, you could compare them to Caucasians. Rhoynar and Valarians come from a similar region. But Crannogmen come from the same region of Firstmen yet are very small.

They are all Humans but have adapted to their environment, yet, evolution takes millions of years so the Westerosi will still have their Essos properties. Crannogmen may be a mix between the Children of the Forest and Firstmen, possibly. But that would still make them Humans. Some of us have Neanderthal DNA as Humans bred with them before they went extinct, we're all still human though.

The World of Ice and Fire has an existence of magic, this might have an effect on peoples appearances, such as the Valerians who often had strange coloured eyes and hair. 

The People of Yi Ti are obviously Asian race.

Summer Isles are obviously of Caribbean/African Black race.

If there was truly a subspecies you would have to look more into their natural intelligence and how they act rather than looks. Every Human in the world of Ice and Fire create shelters to live in. Nobody is a cave dweller like a Neanderthal, everybody has the natural intelligence to speak properly and develop structured language. This is why the Subspecies of Humans went extinct because our species was more powerful. If a sub species does exist in that world none of them will be living like Lords in castles, they will be seen as animals, I guess Giants could be an example. 

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I have a background in biology and have some experience with cladistics and Linnaean taxonomy.  

It is my humble opinion that all of the "normal" humans shown likely are representative of modern humans, Homo sapiens sapiens.   This is everything from the First Men to the Andals to Yi Ti all the way over to Asshai and the Summer Islanders.  I would consider Valyrians a strong candidate for subspecies (Homo sapiens valyrii maybe?) status based on the apparent difficulty of their breeding with with H. s. sapiens, the distinct morphological traits and allopatry.

When we consider other "humans" with notable morphological and behavioral differences, we come to the Ibbenese, I think that these are fairly clearly intended to be considered Homo neanderthalensis.  Keep in mind, that many (though far from most, admittedly) scientists consider Neanderthals to have been just as intelligent as modern humans and to have possessed a culture similar to the humans of their time.  A common thinking on their decline wasn't so much that they were poorly evolved compared to modern humans, just more expensive.  They were larger, heavier and had larger brains- all of that comes at a cost.  As the Pleistocene drew to a close and the megafauna started to become scarce, the resident predators who depended on the megafauna-- cave lions, Homotherium and Neanderthals-- were supplanted by generalist predators who filled similar niches but didn't require as much energy to take down smaller prey.  Namely, wolves and humans.  In a world where the megafauna is still present but greatly diminished, it isnt' surprising to see a relict population of the megafauna version of a human, though in a proportionately diminished state.

When thinking of the brindled men, my mind wanders to the Australopithecine lineage.  Where exactly they may fall based on available descriptions I'll admit that I'm not sure, but that seems like a fair guess on genus.  It is entirely fair to presume that they represent a lineage that doesn't even exist in our world: a relict Australopithecine population that has continued to evolve into something else entirely different.  Australopithecus atrox fits nicely with their observed behavior and temperament.

When we consider giants and the COTF, we are still considering what I would consider to be hominins, but those that would be in wildy divergent genera.  I would consider giants and the maze makers to share a genus: Giganthropus. I would further break them down into the giants: Giganthropus voreios (Giant Man of the North) and Giganthropus kanelabyrith (Giant Man who Makes Mazes).

As for the Children, since I can't actually study them in any truly scholarly manner, I must base my conclusions on the fact that they are apparently similar in age, sympatric but differing in niche and rather quarrelsome toward one another, though not overly aggressive.  I would consider them sister lineages, one favoring more open environments (giants) and the other favoring the woods (COTF).  I'd lump the COTF into Paidithropus dasos: (Child Man of the Forest.  Don't be jealous of my originality! :P)  As for the Ifequevron, I don't know enough about them to assign them a binomial nomenclature.  Paidithropus cf. "Ifequervon" is in this case likely appropriate.  This means that there is an undescribed specimen from the Ifequervon forest that likely falls into the Paidithropus genus.

Ok, so I probably put way too much though into that.  Lmao I hope you all at least enjoy reading it a little bit. 

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Ok this is a long shot but I think they all fall under the Homo Sapien genus but their differences are not just influenced by their race or ethnicity but also by the types of magical abilities they are capable of. First of all the Iron Born are First Men that no longer worship the Old Gods. The Rhoynar seem to descend from the same place as the Valyrians except they don't share similar physical features. 

That being said I think the Andals are just ordinary people with no magical abilities or special nature. As far as we know they are just the muggles of Westeros. The First Men on the other hand (at least a percentage of them) do have some supernatural abilities such as warging and greenseeing and other special connections with nature, which may or may not be the result of interbreeding with the Children of the Forest. Finally the Valyrians do have some mystical attributes as they can control dragons, can tolerant more heat than the average person and are associated with fire. Plus some of them (such as the Targaryens) have prophetic dreams. 

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Ok this is a long shot but I think they all fall under the Homo Sapien genus but their differences are not just influenced by their race or ethnicity but also by the types of magical abilities they are capable of. First of all the Iron Born are First Men that no longer worship the Old Gods. The Rhoynar seem to descend from the same place as the Valyrians except they don't share similar physical features. 

That being said I think the Andals are just ordinary people with no magical abilities or special nature. As far as we know they are just the muggles of Westeros. The First Men on the other hand (at least a percentage of them) do have some supernatural abilities such as warging and greenseeing and other special connections with nature, which may or may not be the result of interbreeding with the Children of the Forest. Finally the Valyrians do have some mystical attributes as they can control dragons, can tolerant more heat than the average person and are associated with fire. Plus some of them (such as the Targaryens) have prophetic dreams. 

I think that a pure-blooded First Man would be just as unmagical as a pure-blooded Andal. After all, there's no evidence that the First Men had greenseeing or skinchanging abilities before they the Pact (in fact, those were things associated with the Children themselves) and they stopped killing Children. And since those abilities seem to be connected to the bloodline, it only makes sense that the power had to come from somewhere. Most likely Children ancestry in the distant past. And it probably isn't connected to religion either, as both House Farwynd and House Crane are both rumoured to be Skinchangers despite following the Drowned God and Seven, respectively.

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I have a background in biology and have some experience with cladistics and Linnaean taxonomy.  

It is my humble opinion that all of the "normal" humans shown likely are representative of modern humans, Homo sapiens sapiens.   This is everything from the First Men to the Andals to Yi Ti all the way over to Asshai and the Summer Islanders.  I would consider Valyrians a strong candidate for subspecies (Homo sapiens valyrii maybe?) status based on the apparent difficulty of their breeding with with H. s. sapiens, the distinct morphological traits and allopatry.

When we consider other "humans" with notable morphological and behavioral differences, we come to the Ibbenese, I think that these are fairly clearly intended to be considered Homo neanderthalensis.  Keep in mind, that many (though far from most, admittedly) scientists consider Neanderthals to have been just as intelligent as modern humans and to have possessed a culture similar to the humans of their time.  A common thinking on their decline wasn't so much that they were poorly evolved compared to modern humans, just more expensive.  They were larger, heavier and had larger brains- all of that comes at a cost.  As the Pleistocene drew to a close and the megafauna started to become scarce, the resident predators who depended on the megafauna-- cave lions, Homotherium and Neanderthals-- were supplanted by generalist predators who filled similar niches but didn't require as much energy to take down smaller prey.  Namely, wolves and humans.  In a world where the megafauna is still present but greatly diminished, it isnt' surprising to see a relict population of the megafauna version of a human, though in a proportionately diminished state.

When thinking of the brindled men, my mind wanders to the Australopithecine lineage.  Where exactly they may fall based on available descriptions I'll admit that I'm not sure, but that seems like a fair guess on genus.  It is entirely fair to presume that they represent a lineage that doesn't even exist in our world: a relict Australopithecine population that has continued to evolve into something else entirely different.  Australopithecus atrox fits nicely with their observed behavior and temperament.

When we consider giants and the COTF, we are still considering what I would consider to be hominins, but those that would be in wildy divergent genera.  I would consider giants and the maze makers to share a genus: Giganthropus. I would further break them down into the giants: Giganthropus voreios (Giant Man of the North) and Giganthropus kanelabyrith (Giant Man who Makes Mazes).

As for the Children, since I can't actually study them in any truly scholarly manner, I must base my conclusions on the fact that they are apparently similar in age, sympatric but differing in niche and rather quarrelsome toward one another, though not overly aggressive.  I would consider them sister lineages, one favoring more open environments (giants) and the other favoring the woods (COTF).  I'd lump the COTF into Paidithropus dasos: (Child Man of the Forest.  Don't be jealous of my originality! :P)  As for the Ifequevron, I don't know enough about them to assign them a binomial nomenclature.  Paidithropus cf. "Ifequervon" is in this case likely appropriate.  This means that there is an undescribed specimen from the Ifequervon forest that likely falls into the Paidithropus genus.

Ok, so I probably put way too much though into that.  Lmao I hope you all at least enjoy reading it a little bit. 

First off, great post! Thank you for your thoughts and input.

I definitely think if there were a subspecies, it'd be the Valyrians. They seem to have trouble with breeding with other people not of their own, which is why they like to marry between brother/sister or cousin/cousin and we see that some offspring produced through others are sort of half human/half dragon (Like Dany and Khal Drogo)

 

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It's not impossible.  The presence of the Ibbenese certainly indicates that there are sub-species of humans on Earthos.  There were said to be more in Sothoros until the Brindled men, another sub-species of their own killed them all. 

One of the biggest questions here, is how prevalent was interbreeding between other species all together?  Did cotf and first men interbreed, and Old Ones a separate species, did Deep ones interbreed?  So many damn questions.

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Ok this is a long shot but I think they all fall under the Homo Sapien genus but their differences are not just influenced by their race or ethnicity but also by the types of magical abilities they are capable of. First of all the Iron Born are First Men that no longer worship the Old Gods. The Rhoynar seem to descend from the same place as the Valyrians except they don't share similar physical features. 

That being said I think the Andals are just ordinary people with no magical abilities or special nature. As far as we know they are just the muggles of Westeros. The First Men on the other hand (at least a percentage of them) do have some supernatural abilities such as warging and greenseeing and other special connections with nature, which may or may not be the result of interbreeding with the Children of the Forest. Finally the Valyrians do have some mystical attributes as they can control dragons, can tolerant more heat than the average person and are associated with fire. Plus some of them (such as the Targaryens) have prophetic dreams. 

This is also an interesting take on the matter. First Men, most notably the Starks, have an affinity for warging and the Crannogmen have an affinity for greensight. When people are like "I have the blood of the First Men," it definitely seems to me that that blood has different properties than your run-of-the-mill Andal blood. You also have the wildlings, who are also descended from First Men, that have a large number of wargs and skinchangers.

The Andals could be the closest to your modern Humans in a sense that they aren't known for any sort of magical ability. 

The Rhoynar seem to practice water-bending magic, but not much else is known aside from that. I definitely think there could be some subspecies classifications to be found here though when examining these differences.

 

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First off, great post! Thank you for your thoughts and input.

I definitely think if there were a subspecies, it'd be the Valyrians. They seem to have trouble with breeding with other people not of their own, which is why they like to marry between brother/sister or cousin/cousin and we see that some offspring produced through others are sort of half human/half dragon (Like Dany and Khal Drogo)

 

Well Rhaenyra (I think it was that name) Targaryen and Daemon Targaryen both had a deformed dragon-like stillbirth together, and at that point the only non-Valyrian blood was from a single Arryn ancestor (if there are others, I apologize). That combined with all the perfectly healthy children born to a Targaryen and non-Valyrian makes it seem to me like the "dragon-children" are just something that happens to Targaryens sometimes.

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This is also an interesting take on the matter. First Men, most notably the Starks, have an affinity for warging and the Crannogmen have an affinity for greensight. When people are like "I have the blood of the First Men," it definitely seems to me that that blood has different properties than your run-of-the-mill Andal blood. You also have the wildlings, who are also descended from First Men, that have a large number of wargs and skinchangers.

The Andals could be the closest to your modern Humans in a sense that they aren't known for any sort of magical ability. 

The Rhoynar seem to practice water-bending magic, but not much else is known aside from that. I definitely think there could be some subspecies classifications to be found here though when examining these differences.

 

I wonder if some greenseerer bloodlines evolve differently? I don't know if for example if Varamyr Sixskins has a similar relationship with his animals (especially his bear) because it seems to me like the Starks have a really strong bond with their direwolves that goes beyond just warging animals. They do after all have wolf dreams and their direwolves are clearly no ordinary creatures as they are able to sense danger before it happens and have a direct psychic link to their Stark master. In a way maybe this is not that much different from the Targaryens and their magical bond with their dragons, although I suspect their dragon riding abilities stem from both blood magic which has since become ingrained in their DNA and a primitive form of warging.

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They're different races of the same genus. To be a different species entirely, the different groups would need to be unable to produce fertile offspring. 

There is an actual in-universe example of this. Despite being of the taxonomic family Hominidae, the Brindlemen and the Ibbinese are clearly not Homo Sapiens. This is evident by their physical differences (both Brindlemen and Ibbinese are short and bulky) as well as their inability to produce fertile offspring with Homo Sapiens (it is stated that all breeding attempts produce either sterile, deformed, or otherwise stillborn children). 

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I've always wondered if all these different peoples are in fact separate subspecies of humans, or were at some point. For genealogical evidence of such a thing, we need look no farther than the Cro-Magnons and the Neaderthals, which both belong to the Homo sapiens species. (Cro-Magnons are Homo sapiens sapiens while Neanderthals are Homo sapiens neanderthalis). And due to the fact that we know Cro-Magnons and Neaderthals interbred, a feat only possible by members of the same species, we can roll with this as scientific fact. We also have the example of Homo sapiens idaltu, another subspecies closely related to our own.

So why do I think this you may ask? My reasoning for such is that we have the First Men, Andals, Rhoynar, Valyrians, Ironborn, etc. who each migrated to Westeros from Essos much like we have the different species of hominids migrating out of Africa into Europe, Asia, and the rest of the world. (I use this as a comparison not as a piece of evidence) However, compounded by the fact that people of First Men descent always claim "I have the blood of the First Men," and we can start to scratch our heads. If "blood" and by extension DNA make us who we are, then it is my opinion that in-universe, people know that they are somewhat different, whether they be Andal or First Men or whoever else. And without a huge scientific community in Westeros, they haven't gotten into DNA testing or Mendel genetics just yet

GRRM seems to almost allude to the possibility of subspecies in this 1999 chat:

 

This is curious, especially with the use of the word "interbreeding," and by saying hardly anyone is "pure" Andal or First Man. This has me quite intrigued and I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. 

 

So, First off, the Cro-Magnon taxonomy has not been used in years as it was a euro-centric designation.  Now we use Homo Sapien Sapien, or Modern humans and for some skeletons, early modern humans.  Neanderthals, are a subspecies of Homo sapiens and would be essentially indistinguishable from modern humans in appearance and morphology. To prove that point, a reconstructed neanderthal skeleton was put in a suit for display.   http://bfy.tw/2x9l 
After Mitochondrial DNA analysis of neanderthals, it was found that they were separated by roughly 24 degrees, as compared all modern humans that are separated by a maximum of 8 degrees, but the two groups could and did do the nasty, and the result is that every human population outside of sub-saharan Africa carries between 2 and 5% of the neanderthal gene code.
As for in story,  the Northerners, Iron Born and wildlings are first men with a little bit of Andal blood. The Thenns, far removed from the wall are the last of the first men, ethnically and culturally (by their own description). Great houses like the Arryns and the Corbrays are houses of ancient Andal lineage and can trace it.  And much like the Anglo-Saxon English and Gaelic Scottish are technically different people, it would be difficult to differentiate them because they  are similar in appearance (pale skin ect.) and they have been interbreeding for centuries.
The First men, Andals, Ryhonar, the Summer Islanders and the Valyrians look very different in terms of hair and skin but they otherwise look like humans and children of mixed ethnicities do not suffer because of it. Just look at the whole dragon seed part of the princess and the queen . 
According to the world book, the Ibbenese fit the neanderthal description and have trouble mating with the rest of humanity so they could be different, even though they have modern in book technology. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

So, First off, the Cro-Magnon taxonomy has not been used in years as it was a euro-centric designation.  Now we use Homo Sapien Sapien, or Modern humans and for some skeletons, early modern humans.  Neanderthals, are a subspecies of Homo sapiens and would be essentially indistinguishable from modern humans in appearance and morphology. To prove that point, a reconstructed neanderthal skeleton was put in a suit for display.   http://bfy.tw/2x9l After Mitochondrial DNA analysis of neanderthals, it was found that they were separated by roughly 24 degrees, as compared all modern humans that are separated by a maximum of 8 degrees, but the two groups could and did do the nasty, and the result is that every human population outside of sub-saharan Africa carries between 2 and 5% of the neanderthal gene code.
As for in story,  the Northerners, Iron Born and wildlings are first men with a little bit of Andal blood. The Thenns, far removed from the wall are the last of the first men, ethnically and culturally (by their own description). Great houses like the Arryns and the Corbrays are houses of ancient Andal lineage and can trace it.  And much like the Anglo-Saxon English and Gaelic Scottish are technically different people, it would be difficult to differentiate them because they  are similar in appearance (pale skin ect.) and they have been interbreeding for centuries.
The First men, Andals, Ryhonar, the Summer Islanders and the Valyrians look very different in terms of hair and skin but they otherwise look like humans and children of mixed ethnicities do not suffer because of it. Just look at the whole dragon seed part of the princess and the queen . 
According to the world book, the Ibbenese fit the neanderthal description and have trouble mating with the rest of humanity so they could be different, even though they have modern in book technology. 

Damn! Good post Dorian! Further evidence to support that they're all subspecies of each other. Great evidence highlighting the First Men blood and Andal blood. 

 

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"A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms where two hybrids are capable of reproducing fertile offspring, typically using sexual reproduction."

All evidence converges to all of them being just different ethnic groups of the same species.

Ibbenese, though, might be a different human species.

I think Andals, First Men and Valyrians are just different ethnicities, not species.

However, I have to say that nowadays that definition of species is no longer considered foolprof. Polar bears and brown bears can interbreed and produce fertile offspring despite clearly being different species with different biologies and behaviour. The same goes for wolves, jackals and coyotes, all of which can interbreed with each other. Bisons and domestic cows produce fertile offspring too.

Bactrian camels and dromedaries produce fertile female hybrids, but I'm not sure about male hybrids.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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