Jessica Jones [AKA This Thread Has Spoilers]

[Myshkin]

Is one of the Avengers a smoker? For shame.

One of the more embarrassing typos I've made on this board. 

[alguien]

Yeah, that was the impression I got - that she was both still injured from earlier fights, and she was fighting to live - whereas Cage was fighting to kill her.

I got the sense, from a few of Cage's hesitations and the grimace on his face, that he was fighting like hell against Kilgrave's control, so I don't know if either was really giving it their "all."

My impression is that their strength levels will be whatever the story calls for. For instance, though Jessica was injured, I thought she was suddenly way powered down for her fight against Nuke/Simpson. 

[Kalbear]

I disagree. The fact that Matt Murdock was likable as hell helped the show too, while I found Jessica to be pretty much a bitch to everyone except Trish. Notice how my only complaints to staying loyal to the source material involve Jessica and Purple Man (or not so purple man as the show made him), and not stuff like Trish being Jessica's best friend in place of Carol (Ms. Marvel). Stuff like that I understand, while stuff like using rape to explain why Jessica is rude to the world, just seems like the easy way out. I respect the comic for not taking such a short cut. I mean heck even GRRM hasn't done such an easy thing to Sansa, even though she's been put in 3 or 4 situations where she could have been raped.

Let's just agree to disagree man, because we'll never come to terms on this show.

 

Wow, where to start.

Jessica Jones isn't particularly nice to people. So you use a sexist epithet. Quaint. 

The reason she was closed off wasn't just because she was raped. In fact, the most traumatic part of her life with Kilgrave was clearly her killing Reza; that's what drove her to stalk Cage, that's what she kept reliving in her dreams and thoughts, and that's what really drove her through the plot. In addition, she's kind of pretty closed off because she blames herself for killing her family. That also shows up pretty profoundly in the show. Whereas her being raped is basically only there because she's arguing with her rapist, who doesn't think he raped her. And that's why she brings it up. 

The comic took exactly the same shortcut; the problem was that you didn't understand it. The main reason that Jessica is standoffish is because she ends up hurting everyone she cares about and feels powerless to stop it, and so pushes everyone away. She wants to fix things, but she's terrified of anyone else getting hurt - and part of the reason for that is that she has dished out so much of the hurt. Nothing about JJ's story is particularly cheap or shortcuttish. 

[sifth]

The comic took exactly the same shortcut; the problem was that you didn't understand it. The main reason that Jessica is standoffish is because she ends up hurting everyone she cares about and feels powerless to stop it, and so pushes everyone away. She wants to fix things, but she's terrified of anyone else getting hurt - and part of the reason for that is that she has dished out so much of the hurt. Nothing about JJ's story is particularly cheap or shortcuttish. 

Sure buddy, whatever you say, lol

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I got the sense, from a few of Cage's hesitations and the grimace on his face, that he was fighting like hell against Kilgrave's control, so I don't know if either was really giving it their "all."

My impression is that their strength levels will be whatever the story calls for. For instance, though Jessica was injured, I thought she was suddenly way powered down for her fight against Nuke/Simpson. 

Yeah, that's typically a hard and fast rule of comic book mind control. Even someone as powerful as Kilgrave should have issues making someone he's controlling do something that is against their nature. Attacking a loved one should fall into that category.

 If I had to guess based on the handful of comics that I've read with the character in them, I'd say Jessica is in about the same strength class as Luke Cage. 

[Kalbear]

 

Sure buddy, whatever you say, lol

Do you really believe the reason that Jessica Jones in the show is standoffish is because she got raped? And it has nothing to do with her feeling responsible for killing her parents and being an orphan, or killing Reza - despite us having her have flashbacks to those events several times and zero flashbacks to her rape? 

[sifth]

Do you really believe the reason that Jessica Jones in the show is standoffish is because she got raped? And it has nothing to do with her feeling responsible for killing her parents and being an orphan, or killing Reza - despite us having her have flashbacks to those events several times and zero flashbacks to her rape? 

I was mentioning it in regards to her hate for Killgrave. The fact they needed to make it rape killed the show for me. It's always depicted as an easy way out in my mind.

I'm done talking about this show man. If you want to share more "words of wisdom" be my guest. I'm finished though.

[HexMachina]

Pretty sure she also specifically says once or twice that she doesn't want anyone getting hurt because of her. And that in the first episode, a big deal is made about her being unable to simply let Hope alone because that would be another person hurt by her inaction. And that she is increasingly be disturbed and guilty over the growing pile of bodies Killgrave casually leaves behind. That she tries to push Trish away to protect Trish. Her standoffish behaviour is very well explained so far as I am concerned.

[Kalbear]

I was mentioning it in regards to her hate for Killgrave. The fact they needed to make it rape killed the show for me. It's always depicted as an easy way out in my mind.

I'm done talking about this show man. If you want to share more "words of wisdom" be my guest. I'm finished though.

That's good then, because she doesn't hate him because of the rape either - or at least just because of that. Though good of you to change your story from "JJ is a bitch because of rape and that's bad" to "JJ hates kilgrave because rape and that's bad".

In any case, she hates kilgrave because he made her want to do things she hated. He made her kill. He made her hurt others. He made her not be a hero.

[The Anti-Targ]

I dunno about that, when he was mindcontrolled by Kilgrave I got the feeling he was the stronger one. It could be that Jessica was holding back though.

In all the individual skirmishes within the fight, right up to the fight at the police car, Jessica always got the upper hand. Even when at a major disadvantage with the whole grabbed through the wall thing. Which of course is necessary if you want an extended fight scene. And you have Jessica getting progressively somewhat injured with each engagement, and starting out quite badly injured, even if somewhat healed. So that suggests Jessica at full health is stronger than Cage, in the show. In any extended fight, Cage would eventually overpower Jones because Jones can't injure Cage, at least not at a faster rate than Cage can injure Jones. 

Obviously Cage can be momentarily incapacitated, so he is subject to internal damage, and the shotgun to the jaw clearly caused pretty long term incapacity, technically speaking that sort of force should have broken his neck even if his skin was left completely unblemished, but we can assume that all he got was concussion and no actual broken or severely damaged internal tissues. But getting any significant force through his impervious skin is difficult without something like a shotgun to the head at close range, or a Jessica Jones full force king hit.

[The Anti-Targ]

Where is this "this show is bad because rape" thing coming from? Hells bells, while in the comics Killgrave may not have raped Jessica by the legal definition he certainly sexually abused her and others. I've seen just one panel from the comic book and that was with Jessica standing with a miniskirt and completely unbuttoned blouse with no bra on all but exposing her breasts to Killgrave, with two completely naked women having sex on the bed. Given if Jessica was in complete control of herself she would never do such a thing, and almost certainly those two women are not their pf their own free will, that is most definitely sexual abuse, which would be an aggravating factor to a kidnapping charge. I completely fail to see how the show moving from sexual abuse to rape actually ruins anything. in terms of pacing and exposition it is much simpler to say Killgrave raped her, because getting into detail, either by exposition or flashback, of the exact nature of the inappropriate sexual contact that is not quite rape would be a detriment.

And as already noted, Jessica has more than just rape as a motivation for dealing with Killgrave. Arguably, she is barely motivated by her own need to seek personal justice / vengeance since she (i) is not actively seeking out Killgrave at the start of the show, and (ii) doesn't try to kill him even when she does get her hands on him, indeed she actively prevents his death. Her motivation is completely about helping Hope and she only snaps and goes into killing mode when Hope finally dies.

[Kalbear]

Sifth just wants JJ to smile more. And be less of a bitch.

[Kyoshi]

I disagree. The fact that Matt Murdock was likable as hell helped the show too, while I found Jessica to be pretty much a bitch to everyone except Trish. Notice how my only complaints to staying loyal to the source material involve Jessica and Purple Man (or not so purple man as the show made him), and not stuff like Trish being Jessica's best friend in place of Carol (Ms. Marvel). Stuff like that I understand, while stuff like using rape to explain why Jessica is rude to the world, just seems like the easy way out. I respect the comic for not taking such a short cut. I mean heck even GRRM hasn't done such an easy thing to Sansa, even though she's been put in 3 or 4 situations where she could have been raped.

Let's just agree to disagree man, because we'll never come to terms on this show.

Second wow.

I think I finally understand your statement about the rape card, which doesn't make sense in the context of this show. I think you came into the show determined to hate it, and being unable to find irrefutable faults (though a few exist), you're now settling for anything. From what I can tell from your own posts and others', Kilgrave still sexually abuses Jessica (and these other women) in the comic books. I don't see how it's any better (for lack of a better word) in the comic books. His actions are reprehensible in both mediums from what I can tell. Not acknowledging the rape on the show, that would have been the shortcut.

But hey, she's a bitch soured by rape. That's the lesson we should all take away from all of this.

[The Wolves]

I want to see Marvel's Netflix take on a female villian. 

Killgrave and Fisk are/were great villains in the Marvel universe but I want to see a female villain as equally great. 

 

My opinion on rape in this show is that I liked how it was handled. The characters that it happened to got to show their rage and pain. Their stories wasn't all about the rape. I also liked how we never saw the rape just the aftermath and how traumatic it was for characters like Jessica and Hope. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I want to see Marvel's Netflix take on a female villian. 

Killgrave and Fisk are/were great villains in the Marvel universe but I want to see a female villain as equally great. 

Crane Mother is a pretty wicked character. I have to imagine she will be a central villain in the Iron Fist series.

[Kyoshi]

I'll admit that while watching the show, I took this moment for granted: Hope's abortion.

Then I read an article about the guy who recently killed people at a Planned Parenthood clinic; South-Park style, I kept clicking the links and ended up on an article that outlined the portrayal of abortion on TV shows, or more appropriately, the lack of it. I feel I would be reductive if I summarised it, so here is the link: Marvel's First Abortion. I found it very insightful

That's one of the things I really like about the show, it doesn't hammer you over the head with the point its trying to make. And I've now convinced myself I should go for a re-watch.

[mormont]

I disagree. The fact that Matt Murdock was likable as hell helped the show too, while I found Jessica to be pretty much a bitch to everyone except Trish. Notice how my only complaints to staying loyal to the source material involve Jessica and Purple Man (or not so purple man as the show made him), and not stuff like Trish being Jessica's best friend in place of Carol (Ms. Marvel). Stuff like that I understand, while stuff like using rape to explain why Jessica is rude to the world, just seems like the easy way out. I respect the comic for not taking such a short cut. I mean heck even GRRM hasn't done such an easy thing to Sansa, even though she's been put in 3 or 4 situations where she could have been raped.

Let's just agree to disagree man, because we'll never come to terms on this show.

But we see several flashbacks to pre-rape Jessica and she's not particularly socially pleasant then, either. This is just her personality. It's exacerbated by the loss of her family and the aftermath of that, and then by Kilgrave's manipulations (not just the rape), but not to a dramatic degree: the main change is actually her trying (and failing) to withdraw from people and close herself off.

The show never, ever links Jessica's personality or way of interacting with people to the rape. I mean, that just doesn't happen at any point. That's not a difference of opinion, it's a fact. That you're criticising the show for doing this, when it does not actually happen, does tend to suggest that you've become rather fixated on the rape yourself, and are viewing everything through that lens. Which is a pity, but it's also a fundamental misreading of the show, on the level of saying that Matt Murdock's entire personality can be explained by his faith and that the DD series is just a piece of religious evangelism trying to convert people to Catholicism.

[Red Tiger]

In all the individual skirmishes within the fight, right up to the fight at the police car, Jessica always got the upper hand. Even when at a major disadvantage with the whole grabbed through the wall thing. Which of course is necessary if you want an extended fight scene. And you have Jessica getting progressively somewhat injured with each engagement, and starting out quite badly injured, even if somewhat healed. So that suggests Jessica at full health is stronger than Cage, in the show. In any extended fight, Cage would eventually overpower Jones because Jones can't injure Cage, at least not at a faster rate than Cage can injure Jones. 

Obviously Cage can be momentarily incapacitated, so he is subject to internal damage, and the shotgun to the jaw clearly caused pretty long term incapacity, technically speaking that sort of force should have broken his neck even if his skin was left completely unblemished, but we can assume that all he got was concussion and no actual broken or severely damaged internal tissues. But getting any significant force through his impervious skin is difficult without something like a shotgun to the head at close range, or a Jessica Jones full force king hit.

Quality breakdown, I agree with this.

[protar]

....Yes, that is what I meant, but everybody knows who they are talking about. Notice how I said "Just not by name"?

And technically you DO get the avengers on AOS because Coulson and Fury were involved in running that team.

Again, I fully believe that if you have no plans of showing the character, dont mention them. It is fucking bullshit and weak. "Yeah, you know about this guy who can level buildings with his fists? Yeah, you're not gonna see him throughout these next 10 episodes". I applauded the season for keeping those names low-key.

Show, dont tell.

This makes no sense. They did mention the Avengers, so why not just mention them by name? Even Daredevil has Foggy referencing Cap by name in one episode so I don't see the strange reluctance in JJ. It just came across as incredibly jarring. At this point the Avengers are supposed to be the world's biggest celebrities. People are implied to be fans of specific ones, they get coffee near the Avengers tower to see Stark zooming in. They've been part of the cultural climate in the MCU version of earth for years now. It makes no sense for people to refer to them so vaguely. 

EDIT: To be clear, this is an incredibly small nitpick. And in fact overall I thought the JJ was integrated with the MCU far better than DD. The existence of superheroes in the setting was a constant undercurrent, and the only reason Jessica wasn't completely dismissed for trying to build a legal case around mind control was because of the existence of the Avengers. It showed how everyday institutions have adapted to the existence of superheroes. 

[protar]

Yeah, in-universe I would imagine only Iron Man is particularly well-publicized. Cap is an agent of a supposedly secret organization. The Hulk is alternately a hero and a terrorist. Hawkeye and Widow are both government agents. Thor is covered up as best they can and isn't particularly around on Earth all that much. I know Cap has a history in WW2 and all, but at the same time saying that when you barely see the guy doesn't seem that odd.

 

Cap has his own museum. People obviously know who he is. There isn't much textual evidence on how much people know about the others specifically but I think Ant-Man gives us a pretty good idea of how well known these guys are. Scott immediately suggests calling the Avengers. He also knows Falcon's hero name and says that he's a big fan. So Falcon, who has perhaps been an Avenger for a few months at this point (and hasn't even been part of any large events in that time) apparently has built up at least something of a personal fandom and ordinary guys on the street know who he is. So I think it's clear that the Avengers are pretty well publicised.