Jessica Jones [AKA This Thread Has Spoilers]

[denstorebog]

 

They explain it during the scene.  She isn't sure if Kilgrave dying will stop the people he's told to kill each other, and he's still far enough away from her during the final scene that he could issue a command before she got to him.  What if, for example, he told Trish to rip her throat out right before Jessica got to him and his death didn't suddenly nullify that command?  Maybe Jess stops her in time.  Maybe she doesn't.  Either way, it's a risk.

The way she did it, she was able to get him to move close enough to her that she could grab him before he could issue any commands.

Obviously with the benefit of hindsight it appears that Kilgrave's death also killed his power over everyone, but the characters couldn't have been sure of that before he died.

This can't be the explanation, because as I said, as far as JJ is aware, Trish is still as much under protection from the headphones as when she was sent into the church. Also, Kilgrave doesn't see Trish until after JJ starts faking it.

She hasn't decided to ignore the other people. She's decided to pretend to ignore them in order to scare Kilgrave into issuing the stop command. It's kind of a reversal of the dynamic they had when she had him locked up, where she realised that, despite him not being able to compel anyone, he was still in control.

This is probably the only explanation that makes sense, but it's really convoluted when you think about it. Because that would all hinge on Kilgrave issuing a universal stop command rather than his usual frothing "STOP, JESSICA". I agree that this could be what the writers had in mind, but it's a pretty contrived way of setting up a climax with the required emotional resonance.

[denstorebog]

On another note, I was pretty amused to see whether JJ would go along with Night Nurse's offer to send in Daredevil to help. On one hand, I was like "THAT WOULD BE HELLA COOL". On the other, "it would probably be an insanely poor plan to try and counter a voice-based mind controller ... with the one guy who has otherworldly hearing."

[Bastard of Boston]

I don't think anyone is saying they didn't enjoy the show because of that, as there wouldn't be much of a show if she had just snapped his neck the first chance she got.  

People are saying they can't understand why she didn't kill him when she had the many chances. I'm saying it's perfectly understandable why, and it has nothing to do with the premise of it cutting the entire show short. Just because an outcome keeps a show relevant doesn't mean it's good writing. Good writing is making a character do something which helps the show function and also makes sense. From a story perspective, Jessica not wanting to kill PM was perfectly rational.

[mormont]

On Jessica not killing Kilgrave earlier: remember that Jessica is not some lethal badass type. She's killed only once before, under Kilgrave's command, and it was clearly very traumatic (in fact it's suggested that this trauma is the reason she could break his control). In addition to the rational arguments she makes for not killing him, there's the emotional impact to consider. She has to be driven to a place where she'll actually go through with it. That doesn't happen until Hope dies (not a subtle bit of character naming, that).

On Nuke, I have a feeling IGH and Nuke may be the big threat that gets the Defenders together. Nuke on his own might not be enough, but with backup, if they go with the comics storyline and have him basically trash Hell's Kitchen, that could be where they're going.

[The BlackBear]

I got the impression the Hand were where the Defenders was going.

As for Kilgrave getting all the people to stop. We know he doesn't really like other people making noise around him, so maybe she realised he'd want some peace and quiet for his big emotional moment with her.

[denstorebog]

As for Kilgrave getting all the people to stop. We know he doesn't really like other people making noise around him, so maybe she realised he'd want some peace and quiet for his big emotional moment with her.

It ain't great writing, but I guess that'll have to do. In general, between putting Trish in front of 10 loaded guns and this stuff on the pier, I feel that the last episode missed some opportunities. I feel the high point of the series in terms of intensity was the killroom episode. Everything just clicked there - the various motivations of everyone present, the dilemmas and the limitations on Kilgrave's options. I wish they could have replicated that kind of clear, but complex intensity in the climax

[denstorebog]

Another incident that felt really contrived was how half the support group suddenly decided to trash JJ's apartment and assault her in the process, all because a clearly unhinged woman who was eavesdropping on them in a bar told them to come along. That was pretty ridiculous, and given that it was obviously just a way for Kilgrave to escape again, it is a pretty strong case for the series being at least one episode too long.

The reason I'm nitpicking on several of these scenes is because I was really impressed with how, up until episode 10, every time I thought something seemed off in the writing, the show was always one step ahead and came up with a really good explanation down the line. That seemed to stop from episode 10 onwards.

[mormont]

To give the writers perhaps a little credit, JJ had basically come along to the group and pissed them all off in the process of using them to get to Kilgrave's mother. So they took the time to establish that at least some members of the group had a reason to dislike and distrust her. But yeah, that was not the finest idea they'd had.

[protar]

 

I'm slightly puzzled by the Netflix shows' reluctance to name names (re: references to 'the flag waver' and 'the green guy'). is this done for reasons of atmosphere, verisimilitude, or is it some complicated rights issue?

Captain America was referenced by name in Daredevil so it can't be rights. I think it is probably a tonal thing but it seems silly. 

Anyway I just finished it and it was awesome. I feel like Daredevil slightly edges it out but they're very different shows despite their similarities. I'm glad they managed to make it feel distinct. Tennant was amazing as expected. It takes a great actor to make a character like Kilgrave seem sympathetic. Could Kilgrave have been redeemed? What would have happened if Jessica had stayed living with him a little longer, weaning him off villainy and in to hero work (which FYI was one of the best episodes. One of the best episodes of television period that I've seen lately). What if his parents hadn't stabbed him with a pair of scissors? I tend to think - as I'm sure most people would - that he would beyond saving. Jessica would have to mind him constantly and eventually he would have a tantrum and murder someone. Nonetheless though, I think another episode of making Kilgrave do hero work could have been interesting. 

[Ran]

The more I think of it, the more dissatisfied I am with certain elements. I might have some issue with Bennett's critique, but he's right that basically the show didn't really know what to do with 13 episodes and ended up coming up with some half-assed ways to pad it out.

I forgot just how terrible the final episode "plan" was, too. Made no sense. Maybe if they had shown their thought process about why they'd send Trish in as a decoy (and why they made some fairly stupid assumptions about how that'd work), it would have been fine. As it is, it was played up as being totally bad ass... until it wasn't. Really weird.

10 episodes might have been a better number for the showrunner. I sure hope the Luke Cage series doesn't run into similar problems.

[mormont]

Could Kilgrave have been redeemed? What would have happened if Jessica had stayed living with him a little longer, weaning him off villainy and in to hero work (which FYI was one of the best episodes. One of the best episodes of television period that I've seen lately).

I have to agree that this could not have worked. Kilgrave didn't have it in him to learn. Jessica quickly establishes this: Kilgrave enjoys the idea of being lauded by people for saving lives, but has no conception of why there would be any other reason to do so, nor did the experience seem to change his attitude towards other people. He still saw them as pawns and would still lash out when denied. He could never be trusted: even as a tool, he could have turned in Jessica's hands. She saw that quite quickly.

The more I think of it, the more dissatisfied I am with certain elements. I might have some issue with Bennett's critique, but he's right that basically the show didn't really know what to do with 13 episodes and ended up coming up with some half-assed ways to pad it out.

I recall I felt somewhat the same about DD, in that it seemed too have too many episodes and wound up spinning its wheels so they could pack things into the final episode. But I'm much more willing to forgive JJ for that, because some bits of DD's final episode seemed to me to be things they could easily have done earlier, whereas JJ's was a true climax.

One other thing I thought worked far better in JJ was the humour. I never really felt any of DD's attempts at lightening the tone landed properly. JJ was much more successful at that.

[Jon AS]

This is probably the only explanation that makes sense, but it's really convoluted when you think about it. Because that would all hinge on Kilgrave issuing a universal stop command rather than his usual frothing "STOP, JESSICA". I agree that this could be what the writers had in mind, but it's a pretty contrived way of setting up a climax with the required emotional resonance.

She literally says this when he asks her.

I don't think it's very convoluted. She doesn't even have to be able to predict exactly what he's going to say and do (though she's only a few metres away, odds are he isn't going to waste much time trying so be specific). At the end of the day, Kilgrave isn't very complicated. He is all about satisfying his immediate desires, and the fact is that getting her back under his control is what he wants more than anyting else. He doesn't care about anybody else on that pier. Odds are, even if he's going to use them against her somehow, he's first going to stop the violence going on, even if it's for no other reason than that it's a distraction (though I actually think the likeliest outcome would be for him to let them go in a vain attempt to impress her).

 

The part of the finale that is either weirdly staged or badly thought out is the scene in the building, with Trish as decoy so that Jessica can... scamper about in the back of the hall, far away from Kilgrave and the armed police officers?

[RumHam]

Obviously with the benefit of hindsight it appears that Kilgrave's death also killed his power over everyone, but the characters couldn't have been sure of that before he died.

Which doesn't make a ton of sense since previously the effects would last twelve hours after he left. But I guess we're meant to assume he let out some kinda pheromone death-rattle that released everyone. 

On another note, I was pretty amused to see whether JJ would go along with Night Nurse's offer to send in Daredevil to help. On one hand, I was like "THAT WOULD BE HELLA COOL". On the other, "it would probably be an insanely poor plan to try and counter a voice-based mind controller ... with the one guy who has otherworldly hearing."

FYI, that is apparently not Night Nurse. I read an article that the film division vetoed that idea, and Night Nurse will be in the Dr. Strange movie. Played by Rachel McAdams apparently. 

[Jon AS]

Which doesn't make a ton of sense since previously the effects would last twelve hours after he left. But I guess we're meant to assume he let out some kinda pheromone death-rattle that released everyone.

Maybe simply seeing him dead helps? His power isn't purely pheromonal (or whatever undefined particles they referred to in the show), he has to actively command his victims, so perhaps seeing him die sets them free since there's no point in following the commands of a dead man.

As Jessica said, there was no way of knowing in advance.

 

From a meta perspective it's similar to how taking out the command vessel stopped the remaining bad guys in Avengers (or TPM...), a storytelling decision made for the sake of expediency, because watching the heroes do mop up work for a few more minutes to tie off that loose end is boring. Well, in the case of this show it would more likely be horrifying, but same difference.

[briantw]

This can't be the explanation, because as I said, as far as JJ is aware, Trish is still as much under protection from the headphones as when she was sent into the church. Also, Kilgrave doesn't see Trish until after JJ starts faking it.

This is probably the only explanation that makes sense, but it's really convoluted when you think about it. Because that would all hinge on Kilgrave issuing a universal stop command rather than his usual frothing "STOP, JESSICA". I agree that this could be what the writers had in mind, but it's a pretty contrived way of setting up a climax with the required emotional resonance.

They show a shot of Jessica seeing Trish lose her headphones during the fight at the end, so Jessica knew she was no longer protected.

[Underfoot]

On Jessica not killing Kilgrave earlier: remember that Jessica is not some lethal badass type. She's killed only once before, under Kilgrave's command, and it was clearly very traumatic (in fact it's suggested that this trauma is the reason she could break his control).

Wait, really? I assumed that it was Reva's blood that had the "antidote." Presumably that was why she had the flashdrive of the experiments to begin with -- she is an experiment herself or was involved in them enough to be immunized. 

ETA: although Reva herself was compelled by him. Hmm, that shatters that theory? I don't know, the scene where we see Jessica punch Reva, there's blood on her hand right? She stares at the blood for a moment, then Kilgrave tries to command her, but she isn't under his influence anymore. I thought the blood was a really obvious clue? 

If was just the trauma of killing someone, wouldn't other people have been able to break free too? 

[Ran]

I assumed that Jessica developed a natural immunity from prolonged and repeated exposure. Kilgrave seemed to get easily bored with previous "toys" and went through them rapidly, whereas with Jessica he became obsessive and commanded her over a period of months.

[Bastard of Boston]

Wait, really? I assumed that it was Reva's blood that had the "antidote." Presumably that was why she had the flashdrive of the experiments to begin with -- she is an experiment herself or was involved in them enough to be immunized. 

ETA: although Reva herself was compelled by him. Hmm, that shatters that theory? I don't know, the scene where we see Jessica punch Reva, there's blood on her hand right? She stares at the blood for a moment, then Kilgrave tries to command her, but she isn't under his influence anymore. I thought the blood was a really obvious clue? 

If was just the trauma of killing someone, wouldn't other people have been able to break free too? 

It depends. Jessica is a unique captive, as she was shown to be the only one Purple Man ever had an obsession with. Everyone else, he uses and discards. So, if he had someone kill another person in the past, it's not necessarily a given he'd ever try to control them again. The trauma of killing someone against your will is probably enough to trigger some mental resistance. It only ever came back to bite him -- or even become apparent to him -- with Jessica.

[Underfoot]

It depends. Jessica is a unique captive, as she was shown to be the only one Purple Man ever had an obsession with. Everyone else, he uses and discards. So, if he had someone kill another person in the past, it's not necessarily a given he'd ever try to control them again. The trauma of killing someone against your will is probably enough to trigger some mental resistance. It only ever came back to bite him -- or even become apparent to him -- with Jessica.

I assumed that Jessica developed a natural immunity from prolonged and repeated exposure. Kilgrave seemed to get easily bored with previous "toys" and went through them rapidly, whereas with Jessica he became obsessive and commanded her over a period of months.

Good points! As soon as I saw the blood on her hand when I was watching, I just assumed that was the answer, case closed. Now that it is not so cut and dry, I want to know why she was able to break free, dammit! 

[mormont]

The part of the finale that is either weirdly staged or badly thought out is the scene in the building, with Trish as decoy so that Jessica can... scamper about in the back of the hall, far away from Kilgrave and the armed police officers?

I thought that the plan was for Jessica to get the jump on Kilgrave, but it didn't quite work. Jessica's plans don't always work.

Maybe simply seeing him dead helps? His power isn't purely pheromonal (or whatever undefined particles they referred to in the show), he has to actively command his victims, so perhaps seeing him die sets them free since there's no point in following the commands of a dead man.

At that point there weren't any remaining commands, or none obvious right then (the victims might have had to be kept under observation), so that didn't worry me.

Wait, really? I assumed that it was Reva's blood that had the "antidote." Presumably that was why she had the flashdrive of the experiments to begin with -- she is an experiment herself or was involved in them enough to be immunized. 

That is the big unanswered question - what's Reva's connection here? I'm guessing this will be picked up in Luke Cage, which is why I think the IGH stuff may turn out to be the linking material connecting the Defenders.

If was just the trauma of killing someone, wouldn't other people have been able to break free too? 

Yeah, actually, you'd think Hope would then have become immune? I dunno. It may be exposure and resistance, as Ran says. Or it may be partly to do with Jessica being powered. Or some combination of the above, or something else entirely. But I don't think it can be coincidence that she breaks free at that precise moment.