Outrage Over Transgender Character in Zoolander 2

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Yes because the tone of this thread really invites people to explain why it's objectionable while you are dismissing objections as silly. And ffs am I censoring you? I'm so fucking sick of that response to criticism, I'm not saying you can't talk about it and even if I was I have no power. I'm criticizing the way unaffected people always think minorities are being unreasonable.

Robin already tried to explain one reason for a boycott and you just dismissed it, what the fuck would be the point in engaging?

I never said (or meant to imply) that you were censoring me. 

[Robin Of House Hill]

I'm hearing a consistent stream of "I'm not offended, so it must be okay."  Don't know why I expected anything different.

[Squab]

Maybe the movie needs a trigger warning.  Or even some kind of a warning at the start that signals that some of concepts about to be seen might be beyond the level of certain peoples sensibilities.

The problem i see is that the puritans and the progressives might find they have so much in common they form a political alliance.

[karaddin]

Would you like me to quote and reply to every person in the thread prior to my post except Robin so no one feels left out? This is hardly the first thread it's happened in and I'm often not a member of the group in question, yet it pisses me off every time. A bunch of white people agreeing there is nothing racist here is another one, but in this specific case you have a bunch of cisgender people saying not only that the depiction is fine but that the transgender people who are upset about it are overreacting based on nothing.  Robin has pointed out that there is more than just the look of the character to go off already.

You want engagement? Even if this character is transgender it doesn't matter, the character just has to hit tropes that the general public associate with transgender people regardless of accuracy and it can still be a harmful depiction. So the fact we don't know if this character in the movie actually is transgender, is non-binary or is merely androgynous in presentation doesn't mean we can't judge whether it is harmful or not.  Yes Zoolander is a parody that isn't complimentary to anyone, but when depictions contribute to actual harm rather than just offense I really question whether they were necessary.  The first Zoolander didn't need a seemingly trans character, why is it needed here? It's not, so leave out the character and leave out the harm.

[Squab]

Would you like me to quote and reply to every person in the thread prior to my post except Robin so no one feels left out? This is hardly the first thread it's happened in and I'm often not a member of the group in question, yet it pisses me off every time. A bunch of white people agreeing there is nothing racist here is another one, but in this specific case you have a bunch of cisgender people saying not only that the depiction is fine but that the transgender people who are upset about it are overreacting based on nothing.  Robin has pointed out that there is more than just the look of the character to go off already.

You want engagement? Even if this character is transgender it doesn't matter, the character just has to hit tropes that the general public associate with transgender people regardless of accuracy and it can still be a harmful depiction. So the fact we don't know if this character in the movie actually is transgender, is non-binary or is merely androgynous in presentation doesn't mean we can't judge whether it is harmful or not.  Yes Zoolander is a parody that isn't complimentary to anyone, but when depictions contribute to actual harm rather than just offense I really question whether they were necessary.  The first Zoolander didn't need a seemingly trans character, why is it needed here? It's not, so leave out the character and leave out the harm.

Hi Karaddin,

What is the 'actual harm' you have mentioned? Rather than just offence.

Cheers,

Squab

[karaddin]

Hi Karaddin,

What is the 'actual harm' you have mentioned? Rather than just offence.

Cheers,

Squab

Internalised negative messaging about transgender people delays trans people from accepting ourselves/hitting the point where fear no longer outweighs the desire to be ourselves.  I started asking myself if I was trans close to 10 years before I actually accepted I was, and this was predominantly due to shitty representation/references in media that convinced me I wasn't because I'm not like those depicted. That ~10 years lost off my life is a concrete harm I suffered. I'm choosing the personal anecdote because I suspect anything else will be deflected as lacking evidence of a connection between being treated like shit in media and being treated like shit by society.

Leap - I see a difference between "I think the film deserves the benefit of the doubt" and "people choosing to boycott over this are overreacting because I don't see a problem". What you've phrased in that last post is the former, what much of the thread was which got me riled is the latter.

[JonSnow4President]

 

I'm in the camp that thinks we are way to quick to outrage, before we know all the facts.  It's almost to the point where as a society, we have a subconscious want to be offended so we can react, and we start getting riled up before the facts are presented to themselves.  

That's why I would say that "people choosing to boycott this are overreacting."  I'm not saying that they should feel compelled to watch it and judge for themselves before they dismiss it.  What I would say is they should wait to see what actually happens in its entirety before they decry it as harmfully discriminatory.  

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Robin, Kara, I apologize if I gave the impression that members of the trans community shouldn't be offended. That wasn't my intention and I will be more careful in the future. 

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

Obviously, the movie isn't out, and it remains to be seen how this character is ultimately going to be portrayed, but based on the trailer, it's certainly leaving me with a bad taste in my mouth.

What's the joke here? It seems to be nothing more than pointing at the character and laughing because the character is gender-nonconforming. The identity is the entire joke. Is there a chance the movie is going to rise above this and present a sympathetic or compelling character? Maybe, but I suspect the "hot dog or bun" joke tells you exactly what level this movie is going to be pitched at. 

There are so few representations of trans characters in the mainstream media, and of those few, most have not risen beyond the negative stereotype of the deceitful sexual predator. Of those who do, most end up as the noble victims of sexual assault and murder. I don't need another mainstream comedy finding new ways to humiliate trans characters over whether or not they have a penis. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

There are so few representations of trans characters in the mainstream media, and of those few, most have not risen beyond the negative stereotype of the deceitful sexual predator. Of those who do, most end up as the noble victims of sexual assault and murder. I don't need another mainstream comedy finding new ways to humiliate trans characters over whether or not they have a penis. 

There have been some great films featuring trans characters. The Adventures of Priscilla Queen of the Desert, The Crying Game, Boys Don't Cry, All About My Mother, and Transamerica, just to name a few. I strongly doubt that Zoolander 2 will challenge that list, but for anyone who has seen the first, I can't imagine that finding new ways to humiliate trans characters is going to be the crux of this movie.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Priscilla Queen of the Desert is one of my favorite movies.  

[karaddin]

There have been some great films featuring trans characters. The Adventures of Priscilla Queen of the Desert, The Crying Game, Boys Don't Cry,All About My Mother, and Transamerica, just to name a few. I strongly doubt that Zoolander 2 will challenge that list, but for anyone who has seen the first, I can't imagine that finding new ways to humiliate trans characters is going to be the crux of this movie.

Of those movies the four I know all have very problematic elements to their depiction, with cis actors playing the roles (Transamerica at least has a woman playing the trans woman), elements of the pathetic trans woman trope and artificial femininity in Priscilla, the reaction to disclosure in Crying Game.  While I think they are for the most part trying for a sympathetic approach, none of them even hit the actually acceptable level to me, I just find it hard to believe that a comedy in the Zoolander vein could manage it. Particularly with that joke in the trailer, I doubt they are even trying.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Priscilla Queen of the Desert is one of my favorite movies.  

In my all-time Top 20, for sure. Fantastic cast, great story, you really can't ask for much more in a movie.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Of those movies the four I know all have very problematic elements to their depiction, with cis actors playing the roles (Transamerica at least has a woman playing the trans woman), elements of the pathetic trans woman trope and artificial femininity in Priscilla, the reaction to disclosure in Crying Game.  While I think they are for the most part trying for a sympathetic approach, none of them even hit the actually acceptable level to me, I just find it hard to believe that a comedy in the Zoolander vein could manage it. Particularly with that joke in the trailer, I doubt they are even trying.

Yeah, I agree in regards to Zoolander 2 not belonging on (or anywhere near) that list. I doubt that there will be any sort of substantial trans theme in Zoolander 2. Of course that remains to be seen. 

[Crazydog7]

God Bless the internet and its unceasing ability to get spun up about every little thing. 

 

Its not like anyone is going to go see the stupid film anyway. 

[Robin Of House Hill]

A-MP,

Not a problem.  I didn't think that was your intent.

But I do want to address the person who inquired about what actual harm is done by comedy like this..  First, a karaddin pointed out, it impacts the people that the movie makes objects of laughter.  It tells them they are perceived as different, as less than everyone else, as something to be laughed at.  It negatively impacts the way they live.  Second, when this type of comedy is presented in a movie, it tells the public, it's okay to laugh at these people, thus perpetuating the problem.

I also want to address the absurdity of telling marginalized people that they shouldn't be offended, or are being too sensitive about things that portray them as "others."  Tell, me how this can possibly not be seen as saying, we are superior to you so we get to decide what is offensive.

There have been some great films featuring trans characters. The Adventures of Priscilla Queen of the Desert, The Crying Game, Boys Don't Cry,All About My Mother, and Transamerica, just to name a few. I strongly doubt that Zoolander 2 will challenge that list, but for anyone who has seen the first, I can't imagine that finding new ways to humiliate trans characters is going to be the crux of this movie.

Priscilla and Transamerica are really tacky portrayals of trans women.  And all the comedy is about who they are.  None of it would work if the character wasn't trans. Boys Don't Cry and one that wasn't mentioned, Soldier's Girl, are about trans people, or their partners being murdered.  The message is not to get involved with trans people.  And yes, none of these movies ever uses a trans actor to portray a trans character.  Obviously, there is little respect by the producers of these movies, for the characters in them.

God Bless the internet and its unceasing ability to get spun up about every little thing. 

 

Its not like anyone is going to go see the stupid film anyway. 

Your privilege is showing.  "It's not a problem I face, so it's unimportant."

 

[Dr. Pepper]

And plenty (perhaps most) of people will go "yeah, I am kinda curious", even if they wouldn't have been as crude. But then, so much comedy is about having someone else do the dirty work and experiencing things through them.

Perhaps not in a world you consider ideal but we live here.

No, definitely not. Most people who are curious about a random stranger's genitals don't ask them about it, especially not on first meeting.  That the public and media keeps insisting that transpeople or gender-nonconforming people don't deserve the same respect is problematic.

If it's a curiosity about what pronouns to use, there are better ways to go about it than asking questions about genitals.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 

Priscilla and Transamerica are really tacky portrayals of trans women.  And all the comedy is about who they are.  None of it would work if the character wasn't trans. Boys Don't Cry and one that wasn't mentioned, Soldier's Girl, are about trans people, or their partners being murdered.  The message is not to get involved with trans people.  And yes, none of these movies ever uses a trans actor to portray a trans character.  Obviously, there is little respect by the producers of these movies, for the characters in them.

Wow. I really don't know what to say to you regarding these criticisms. One that I think is 100% incorrect for sure is Boys Don't Cry. "Don't get involved with trans people" is clearly not the overriding message of that film. It kind of sounds like you would just prefer that the film industry not even bother to try to portray trans characters in movies. 

[Robin Of House Hill]

Wow. I really don't know what to say to you regarding these criticisms. One that I think is 100% incorrect for sure is Boys Don't Cry. "Don't get involved with trans people" is clearly not the overriding message of that film. It kind of sounds like you would just prefer that the film industry not even bother to try to portray trans characters in movies. 

What I'd like to see in movies, is trans people being part of the story, not because they are trans, but because their character is an integral part of the story.  In other words, portraying them as people.

[Theda Baratheon]

I'm really sorry if I came across as dismissive, I didn't mean to, I hadn't even seen the trailer and I totally think we should criticise comedy when it goes wrong. But I just watched the trailer now and that joke was stupid and hasn't inspired much hope in me. Even if the character is not trans, the film is still taking the piss out of people who aren't gender conforming. I don't have any right to speak over actual trans people and say "calm down!!! Ahhh people these days!!" and I get annoyed when others do that, like a few in this thread. I understand if something is boycotted and doesn't make enough money then similar films with similar themes are that little hit less likely to be made, and in the case of harmful representations of trans characters, that's a good thing. This thread has made me think hard because I love some of the movies being name dropped like Priscilla, and I completely have the privilege and the luxury to watch that movie and not feel hurt in anyway and not realise that others would either.  But I watched the Crying Game the other day and it was just so depressing and and peoples reactions to the film are even MORE depressing "she was a man the whole time how did he not know!!" when, you know, she WASN'T and NEVER was a man but because of the character in the movie repeatedly denying her her identity I guess it influences audiences to think a certain way too. I really REALLY like Neil Jordan as a director but I found that film so depressing and not enjoyable and the way it was filmed and shot has created some really nasty audience comments about it. 

So I totally accept I have the luxury of being able to just say "ahhh dont boycott it whats the point!" And I am sorry if my comment came across that way but I meant it more as "but we should be criticising that one and any other offensive jokes or parts of the movie loudly so lazy cheap offensive jokes aren't recycled and to do that you have to watch the movie but I do understand perhaps a much more effective way is just to boycott it so it loses money...I just don't want that, if it is successful at all and the movie doesn't make as much money as it hoped, that the boycotters will unfairly be turned into villains by movie fans. "Everyones too sensitive these days" people.