Why did Tyrion go with King Robert to Winterfell?

[Magog]

Thank you all for your responses. Sorry for multiple threads, it was a laptop-related error.

Anyway, i have more questions.

If it was the wall, how would he do that if Benjen didn't pop up? It seems rather logical that he made that decision while at WF, and if we look back at his conversation with Cersei which is quoted above, it is obvious he only recently decided to go to the wall. As for his passion for knowledge and legendary things, that also makes no sense if he didn't know in the beginning that seeing the wall was a possibility. Remember that he hated travelling with half of the court because it stopped him to whore around, and Benjen was enough to keep him safe when he travelled from WF to Castel Black. He never struck me as a security-obsessed character, so it makes no sense to travel with 300+ men. It is slow, dull, exhausting, and he has to behave. 
King's court reasons seem valid, especially with the point that Robert would bring him on simply "because he can", and he still is a Lannister. I also think Robert was brought to a stalemate in relations to Lannisters (and we know how much hated taking care of things without an axe in his hands), especially because of all the money they loaned to the crown - he would never insult them, and Tyrion is a Lannister, after all. Also, taking into consideration that this might be the only chance he'll have to go north, it supports the convenience of Tyrion using his presence at the court, if he was there and if he indeed wanted to go with all of them.
I don't like the idea that things should happen just because of storyline reasons, as it has to make some sense in reality - just my opinion. This is how the war started and that is why reasons of his presence are pivotal. If Tyrion was not captured, Ned would not have to send out half of his men with Lord Dondarion, and so on. The war might still happen, though.

Thanks once again, you are all very kind.

[Philpenn]

Winterfell's library?

[Walda]

Isn't it less realistic for Cersei and Jaime to have traveled to the North?

They would have had a Robert-free Kings Landing for months.  That seems ideal for them.

 

 

True. I figure Robert made Cersei go because he was taking the kids, and he wanted them to get to know Ned's kids, and didn't want Ned to wriggle out of handing Sansa over to Joffrey.

It seemed to work, in that Sansa was quite taken by Joffrey from first sight, although given how quickly Jon and Arya saw through him, it could easily have gone the other way. Still, it would look suspicious if the crown prince had been left behind.

Having Joffrey come but Cersei and the other kids stay behind might make the Royal family seem divided on having Sansa as a daughter-in-law and give Ned an opportunity to delay, at least until he got to Kings Landing. And Robert's main reason for wanting the marriage of Sansa and Joffrey is to bring the Starks and the Lannisters together in his service, rather than having them either at opposite ends of the kingdom or at each other's throats.

Anyway, I think GRRM has provided sufficient motives to justify the number of Lannisters that have come to Winterfell, and Robert's coming himself. Although I do wonder why Robert had never been visited or summoned Ned before. You would think that the King would have done a tour at least once in the last fifteen years or so, and if not, that he would have invited Ned and family (or at least Ned) to the Capital for a bit of hunting, and a chat about how the realm was getting on.

If not Robert, then Jon Arryn. You would think, one or two times in a decade is not excessive, when Ned is the warden of the North and Jon has been like a father to him, and they are married to sisters. Especially considering that after the war Ned's own father was gone, and it was Brandon not him that had been brought up with the expectation of one day ruling the North. I know Robert is a bit of a handful, and there is a whole kingdom to manage, but it seems Jon Arryn was a piss-poor guardian after the war, letting Ned sulk back to Winterfell and mope there unvisited for fifteen years. 

Or maybe he had visited. SweetRobin "had been less than a year old the last time Catelyn had seen him."(AGoT, Ch.34 Catelyn VI) so by implication, the sisters have seen each other five years ago.  But Ned doesn't feel he needs to leave Winterfell for the widow or the funeral: “Go to her,” Ned urged. “Take the children. Fill her halls with noise and shouts and laughter."(AGoT, Ch.02 Catelyn I)

Maybe Ned was not so attached to Jon Arryn. Jon Arryn made a miserable match for Robert, and his own marriage was not happy. Ned seems to have grown to genuinely love his wife, but we don't know what other options he had to sacrifice for her.

Ned's internal musings about Cat all reflect his duty towards her and the children, rather than his love of her. When they are apart, he goes whole chapters without thinking of her. When he does remember her, she is clearly not the only cockle of his heart: "The thought of Winterfell brought a wan smile to his face. He wanted to hear Bran’s laughter once more, to go hawking with Robb, to watch Rickon at play. He wanted to drift off to a dreamless sleep in his own bed with his arms wrapped tight around his lady, Catelyn."(AGoT, Ch.47 Eddard XIII) That is not the first time he thinks of her fondly as a son-making machine.

In his darkest hour, his last thoughts of her are very pragmatic "Catelyn would raise the north when the word reached her" and “Cat holds her brother …”(AGoT, Ch. Eddard XV)

I'm not saying he does not love her. It might be just that he is not demonstrative. Their meeting in King's Landing is characteristic: "she saw him, ran to him, and embraced him fiercely.
“My lady,” Ned whispered in wonderment.
Catelyn lifted her face, and Ned kissed her."(AGoT, Ch.20 Eddard IV)

It is difficult to tell how much love he feels for her as herself. He seems to love her as a part of his life that is associated with Winterfell and the children. He thinks of her before himself, always, but not necessarily before his sons. In that instance he kissed her, but it proves the general rule that in their marriage, Catelyn does the kissing, Ned gets kissed. Even at his most demonstrative, whether his own point of view or hers,  Eddard's "love had more of duty to it than of passion"(ASoS, Ch.45 Catelyn V) 

In contrast, Catelyn's chapters are full of Ned - she reads the twist of his mouth when she is with him, when she is with Robb, "She could hear echoes of Ned in his voice" (AGoT, Ch.55 Catelyn VIII), she remembers what Ned had told her about the Eyrie and Moat Calin, when she visits those places, and how her own wedding had gone, when she attends Robb's. She can't stand the sight of Jon Snow because he reminds her of her husband's former lover, while Ned withstands even open taunts from Petyr Baelish, and seems to soon forget his association with Catelyn and Brandon.

The one chapter where Catelyn completely forgets about Eddard,  is at Tyrion's trial by combat. Then, her reverie is of another fight, one that ended "with a brutal backhand cut that bit through Petyr’s rings and leather into the soft flesh below the ribs, so deep that Catelyn was certain that the wound was mortal. He looked at her as he fell and murmured “Cat” as the bright blood came flowing out between his mailed fingers. She thought she had forgotten that."(AGoT, Ch.40 Catelyn VII) Still, it is clear that since her marriage, Eddard is her everything.

Eddard,  on the other hand, might have spent the whole of his marriage trying not to reveal his secret regret, that  "that shadowy secret love"(ACoK, Ch.45 Catelyn VI) that Catelyn had always suspected was put aside so that he could marry according to Jon Arryn's advice.  Or, if the woman was already dead, he might have married supposing Catelyn would become like a mother to his bastard son and had to swallow his resentment when Jon Arryn's bad judgement of female character became apparent. (Although, I am still hoping LSH might belatedly give the gift of vengeful life to UnJon, and therefore become something like a mother to him.)

Anyway, Cersei going to Winterfell, very much against her liking, makes more sense to me than Jon Arryn apparently never going to Winterfell, nor Ned to Kings Landing before he died. It seems almost as if Jon Arryn prevented Robert from visiting Ned, too.

ETA: Just because Tyrion did not communicate his desire to go to the wall until Cersei spoke of leaving Winterfell, does not mean he had not foreseen the opportunity to see it. He knew that Eddard had a brother on the Wall, and it was a fair bet that Benjen would be summoned to Winterfell to see the King. 

Note how graciously Benjen had offered to show Tyrion the Wall:

"Benjen Stark seemed to share his brother’s distaste for Lannisters, and he had not been pleased when Tyrion had told him of his intentions...One did not say no to the queen’s brother, of course, so that had settled the matter, but Stark had not been happy."(AGoT, Ch.13 Tyrion II)

In the unlikely event that no emissary of the Night's Watch had travelled to see the King, Tyrion could still have found someone in Winterfell to accompany him, at least as far as the holdfast on the other side of the Wolf's Wood, where they met Yoren. Eddard and Jeor would be glad that someone in the King's retinue was interested in seeing the Wall for themselves, even if it wasn't Robert. And being the King's brother meant that Tyrion only had to express the desire to the right person, to get their acquiescence.

Of course, if Cersei had time to think about it, or knew that Tyrion had this on his bucket list, she would probably find a way to spoil it for him. But Cersei isn't as dedicated to controlling and spoiling Tyrion's life as her father - she might have blabbed on him, but it wasn't her who had Alayaya scourged, even after he had threatened Tommen, for instance.

The smart way for Tyrion to get what he wanted was obviously to wait until the King had travelled as far North as he intended to go, then find someone who would take him further, or at least some way of staying at Winterfell after them (in the hope of finding a companion to guide him further north), but announce his plans at the last minute, with a casual shrug, as if it had been part of their hosts plan. Cersei's instinct is to let him go his own way, and never mind. Jaime is shrewder, sees his brother's game, but isn't going to stop him.

We know Tyrion has had a special place in his heart for the Wall since his Uncle Gerion had given him Lomas Longstrider's Wonders and Wonders Made by Man. "For years afterward, he had cherished a dream that one day he would travel the world and see Longstrider’s wonders for himself.
Lord Tywin had put an end to that hope ten days before his dwarf son’s sixteenth nameday, when Tyrion asked to tour the Nine Free Cities, as his uncles had done at that same age. “My brothers could be relied upon to bring no shame upon House Lannister,” his father had replied. “Neither ever wed a whore.”(ADwD, Ch.08 Tyrion III)

As this was his only chance to travel north, it stands to reason that he would be looking for a way to turn it into a trip to the one Wonder of the World he could get to without leaving Westeros. In the King's retinue, he could throw his weight around as the Queen's brother, like he never could at home, and slip things past his sister that he never could his father. He didn't absolutely need Benjen - on his return, Tyrion would have been content with only Yoren as a companion. He feels it is time for him to leave because “My brother Jaime will be wondering what has become of me." but sees no need for a large escort “I have Jyck and Morrec,...and Yoren is riding south again.”(AGoT, Ch.21 Tyrion III).  Mormont  knew better, and provided him with an escort of three Black Brothers in addition to Yoren, considering that was necessary for his safety.

Of course, Tyrion was too cavalier, and Mormont was right about his need for a good escort, although the three Black Brothers seem to have vanished somewhere between Winterfell and the Inn at the Crossroads ("There were four of them, Catelyn saw. An old man in the black of the Night’s Watch, two servants … and him"(AGoT, Ch.28 Catelyn V )) and the two Tyrion had trusted each looked out for him, after their own fashion.

I think GRRM does a good job of letting character drive plot, rather than forcing the characters to do what the plot demands - Tyrion's lack of caution on his capture by Catelyn is an example. We see the same lack of caution later, on the road from the Eyrie, in the unwise threats he made to his sister about Tommen and Alayaya, in his taking Shae to the capital, and even into the Tower of the Hand.

It seems much more likely to me that Tyrion's long held desire to see the natural and man made wonders of the world drew him to the wall, than that he came up with the notion while speaking to Cersei.

 

[devilish]

I think the answer to this is really simpl TBVH

Tyrion Lannister was a noble lord in the medieval times. Technically he was heir to Casterly Rock however his father didn't like him very much, which is a bit of problem considering that the easy way out for Tywin was for Tyrion to have an accident, something the old man could easily orchestrate. Till the time of date,Tyrion was able to remain alive and there were nothing to suggest that Tywin wanted him dead. However considering that Tywin was ruthless and Tyrion loved his whores and had had a pungent tongue, it was a wise thing for Tyrion to leave the Westerlands. 

Westeros is a big place to go however not for the Lord Paramount's son. As Tyrion learnt during his visit in the Crossroads inn things could change quickly and a house who previously offered shelter at one time may want you dead the day next. So for a nobleman to travel alone for most of his life wasn't really a good thing especially when daddy doesn't like you very much and mercenaries/thieves/thugs are quite common to meet. By sticking with sister, brother Jamie and the King, Tyrion knew that he was safe from any eventual 'accidents' that can occur on the way. Also Kings tend to like pulling a fast one to Tywin (Aerys made Jamie KG, Robert B kept him there) and the oaf loved to give titles to those who didn't really deserved it. If kissing arses was enough for Renly to become Lord of the Stormlands, than guess what a decent administrator like Tyrion could achieve if he sticks to Robert long enough for him to notice him. He could easily carve a piece of financial empire for himself like Littlefinger did and for all he knows Robert B could become friends with him (they have a lot of things in common like drinking, whoring and bring grief to Cersei which would prove enough to override any decision made by Tywin regarding inheritance. 

What truly fascinates me is why Tyrion decided to remain a teeny weeny longer by taking a detour to the wall. Maybe he wanted to see one of the greatest wonders in Westeros and thought that daddy or any of daddy's enemies wouldn't have the time to orchestrate his death in such a short time span or he was still worried about Bran and Jon Snow (we all know that Tyrion has a soft spot for the underdog) and wanted to see if he could help them out. Surely the new hand of the king would appreciate Tyrion's concern about his children, and who knows, he may repay the debt by putting a good word for him with the oaf. 

[Arrow of the Morning]

There is no big mystery here. Tyrion likes to travel. He was kept hidden by his father during his childhood and was forbid to travel to the Free Cities, but when he growth - and his father couldn't stop him - he begins to travel anyway. He probably didn't live in the court, but visit Jaime and attended the tournaments.

[Batbob45]

Tyrion is the one Lannister that Robert could get along with-Both have the same vices and both are hated by Cersei.

[Bloodmane]

The sewers of the Rock ran perfectly, so he coud afford a vacation...

[Maid So Fair]

He was bored. He enjoys his drinking and whoring but he has a far too sharp a mind to be content with a life of leisure. He begged to go on a Free City tour when he was young, and he's clearly curious about the wider world. And what was the alternative? Stay in KL with no friends, doing nothing?

Also, he doesn't need Robert's permission. He's not a councillor who has duties in KL and he's a  free man. He can travel wherever he wants. Similarly, he doesn't need Benjen to escort him to Castle Black, if a visit to the Wall took his fancy - he has men at arms to attend him and it's not like it's easy to get lost - just follow the road north. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Tyrion is the one Lannister that Robert could get along with-Both have the same vices and both are hated by Cersei.

Not really. Robert loves hunting, loves jousting, the melee and war in general. He is more likely to have gotten along with Daven and possibly Tygett and Gerion when they were alive who can share their stories of past battles with him.

 

While Tyrion and Robert like drinking and whoring (pretty much every noble man did) he would have surrounded himself with similar men of action like Thoros rather than Tyrion.

[ICRYRAGE]

The library (now burned down) he was always looking for new books to read.  This also means he might have info that has burned down in the library.  

[Dofs]

I have a feeling that it was actually said in the books that Tyrion wanted to see the Wall. I am not certain about it, thought.

[Wm Portnoy]

I am new to this forum, but this baffles me.

Tyrion was not the man of the king, he was never the man his sister would gladly invite, there is no reference he did it on anyone's order, he had no interest in crypts (or eggs in them), he hated the long sexless journey, he wanted to piss from the wall only when he came to Winterfell so it's not the wall either, he could have had sex with a northern girl without being there with king and co.

His presence becomes very important only after Cat captures him and it was obviously essential storywise that he goes and that he stays behind, but he had no reason to go with the king that i can think of.

What am i missing?

What else would a playboy with plenty of cash and no job do?  It was a family trip.