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When did R+L=J start to surface


Ser Greggor the Baked

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I only started reading the books after watching the first couple seasons of the show, so I am late to most parties with ASOIAF theories. 

I was reading about the Starfall Swap, and it was brought up how the show producers gave GRRM a "shocking" answer when asked who Jon's mother was. This was after the first 3 books had been written, and I would imagine that R+L=J was already being discussed? Would that answer really come across as shocking? I was wondering if anyone who has been reading the books since before the show would remember. 

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I only started reading the books after watching the first couple seasons of the show, so I am late to most parties with ASOIAF theories. 

I was reading about the Starfall Swap, and it was brought up how the show producers gave GRRM a "shocking" answer when asked who Jon's mother was. This was after the first 3 books had been written, and I would imagine that R+L=J was already being discussed? Would that answer really come across as shocking? I was wondering if anyone who has been reading the books since before the show would remember. 

If I recall correctly, GRRM's editor worked it out from the first book/final manuscript.

Personally I read the first three books in a few days, devouring the story and not even thinking about who Jon's mother was or was not. But a re-read prior to book 4 coming out (so long before the show) saw me taking in much much more and figuring it out as an idea (not with much depth, it just struck me suddenly as I was reading, I don't remember what passage or clue) and racing off to the internet to confirm it (and learn of all the other connecting facts) - which lead me to the Tower of the Hand site and then here (where I lurked for a year or two reading and learning).

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It is absurdly obvious, so much in fact that I doubt it to be true. 

blahahaha! I have friends who, after watching the show, read the books that think  Jon is Bob's baby. I have others who think he's Brandons or strait up Ned's with: Ashara, fisherman's daughter, and/or Willa.... 

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Don't take D&D's comment about the "shocking" answer to heart.  Dan was being sarcastic.

There were already interviews being done as early as 2011 saying that they got it right.  It was when the focus of discussing about Jon that D&D took noticeable steps back and started saying "well George didn't really say we got it right, but from his expression....we knew we got it."

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I don't think George wrote the mystery Jon's parentage to shock people. In fact, I think he intended for readers to figure out eventually while leaving a few things a mystery like was Lyanna really abducted, was it really about love or prophecy and what Ned's promise was. And I think that's what makes R+L=J endlessly fascinating and interesting because while it is "obvious" it's still mired in mystery. We know but we still don't really know. Not really. That's the mark of a clever writer. GRRM could have hidden all the clues and boom! Shocking reveal. But nah...instead he let it stew in the readers mind and allowed them to discuss and theorize. 

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I don't think George wrote the mystery Jon's parentage to shock people. In fact, I think he intended for readers to figure out eventually while leaving a few things a mystery like was Lyanna really abducted, was it really about love or prophecy and what Ned's promise was. And I think that's what makes R+L=J endlessly fascinating and interesting because while it is "obvious" it's still mired in mystery. We know but we still don't really know. Not really. That's the mark of a clever writer. GRRM could have hidden all the clues and boom! Shocking reveal. But nah...instead he let it stew in the readers mind and allowed them to discuss and theorize. 

That's right.

It's not the R+L=J, but the what, when, where, how, why and the end result of R+L=J, that is more of the mystery.

 

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Exactly so and as ever in considering this its worth recalling what GRRM himself said in the original 1993 synopsis:

...Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Clearly Jon is not Arya's half-brother, but it suggests that the resolution of the mystery will lead to Jon getting inside Arya's knickers rather than having anything to do with the Iron Throne - and there's nothing in there either about Azor Ahai or any other Chosen One - its Danaerys the Dragonlord who must rally Westeros against the Others 

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I figured it out while reading the second book I think it was, before I had ever heard of westeros.org. ☺

I remember mentioning to Snow Shrike, who had introduced me to ASOIAF, and she looked at me like I was crazy. To me it was so obvious. She remains sceptical. I am 98.9% sure R+L=J.

GRRM has left just enough doubt that I can't commit 100%.

I joined this forum after completing all of the books and was shocked to realise that what I thought was so obvious, generated so much controversy. A very mind opening experience nonetheless.

Black Crow above quoted GRRM from 1993 (thanks!). I am not familiar with this synopsis but I did note that he spoke of a "trilogy", which ASOIAF clearly is not. Since this is new to me, how relevent do we think it is nowadays?

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I figure about 90% of readers were like me (and Bran ignoring every important thing Meera says), trying to rush ahead to the action, while reading and missing the finer points that fill in the true backstory. It's amazing how much detail pops out at me on subsequent readings. There really is enough information in Game to piece it together, if you are paying attention. That said yeah, once there was an Internet community around to talk about it, I'm sure it instantly became common knowledge.

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Black Crow above quoted GRRM from 1993 (thanks!). I am not familiar with this synopsis but I did note that he spoke of a "trilogy", which ASOIAF clearly is not. Since this is new to me, how relevent do we think it is nowadays?

You can find the full text in the OP to Heresy 180 over on the Dance with Dragons page.

Things have obviously changed a bit over the years and there's a suspicion that Sansa might substitute for Arya. Her role has certainly changed, but in overall terms although the story has obviously gotten bigger in every way and was never completely mapped out anyway, I'd imagine that the core outline remains the same

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I figure about 90% of readers were like me (and Bran ignoring every important thing Meera says), trying to rush ahead to the action, while reading and missing the finer points that fill in the true backstory. It's amazing how much detail pops out at me on subsequent readings. There really is enough information in Game to piece it together, if you are paying attention. That said yeah, once there was an Internet community around to talk about it, I'm sure it instantly became common knowledge.

This was me too. I'm so happy that someone read it the first time the same way I did because I completely missed R+L=J (and a lot of other things) the first time I read it. The first time I heard about R+L=J it was in a spoof of the tv series. I didn't read any theories or anything after this. I just reread the book just to see if I could figure it out and I did because I just read the actual book closer and figured and out plus other things. Now I'm on my 3rd reading and I've resorted to taking notes and everything. But, the first time I was really just surface reading and missed a lot.

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This was me too. I'm so happy that someone read it the first time the same way I did because I completely missed R+L=J (and a lot of other things) the first time I read it. The first time I heard about R+L=J it was in a spoof of the tv series. I didn't read any theories or anything after this. I just reread the book just to see if I could figure it out and I did because I just read the actual book closer and figured and out plus other things. Now I'm on my 3rd reading and I've resorted to taking notes and everything. But, the first time I was really just surface reading and missed a lot.

Oh, it starts with a simple reread. Then its a third read with notes, before long you are doing key word searches on e-books to connect threads over all five books, plus the world book and the novellas. I wish I could say it stops there, but here we are posting on the forums.

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[emoji23][emoji23]I know! I know! I've fallen so quickly. I don't even know when it happened. I would like so say that I'm only writing notes bc I only have the e-books & its simple to keep & find notes but I'd probably still be doing it if I had the actually books. Read the world book but not the novellas yet, but I bought them

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I figured it out after MMD talks about knowing the secrets of the "bed of blood." At that point, it dawned on me that Lyanna died giving birth. Martin always ties Lyanna with Rhaegar, via Robert's anti-Targ hysteria (which I share lol). It's not too obvious, but also not so hidden that it would come as a complete shock. If r+l=j, then kudos to Martin for a job well done.

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Oh, it starts with a simple reread. Then its a third read with notes, before long you are doing key word searches on e-books to connect threads over all five books, plus the world book and the novellas. I wish I could say it stops there, but here we are posting on the forums.

hahah, nailed it entire!

http://asearchoficeandfire.com is your friend...

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You can find the full text in the OP to Heresy 180 over on the Dance with Dragons page.

Things have obviously changed a bit over the years and there's a suspicion that Sansa might substitute for Arya. Her role has certainly changed, but in overall terms although the story has obviously gotten bigger in every way and was never completely mapped out anyway, I'd imagine that the core outline remains the same

Thanks. Will check it out.

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