Did the Starks Once Rule All of Westeros?

[Lord Wraith]

The Starks didn't consolidate the entire North until several thousand years after the Long Night.  They had to subdue the Red Kings (Boltons), the Marsh Kings (Reeds), Warg Kings (Blackwoods?) and First Kings (Dustins) before they would consider themselves the Kings of the North.  Before that they were known as the Kings of Winter.

This. It took them along time to consolidate their hold on the North. Let alone of the rest of Westeros.

[redtree]

That's just title, and i doubt that winter in Dorne is as terrible as in the North.
House Justman was King of Rivers and Hills but that doesn't mean that they ruled all areas with rivers and hills, only riverland. 
House Durrandon was Storm Kings, doesn't mean that they ruled over all area with Stormy weather, only Stormland

[Waters Gate]

TLDR: Brandon the Builder didn't come from nowhere for him to become King brandon "Stark", founder of that name. Him being the potential son of King Azor Ahai can provide a number of logical reasons on how Brandon the builder became what he was and was able to build the defensive works that were for the sake of the whole of Westeros

 

Perhaps they were, in my own research on Brandon "the builder" Stark i had considered a number of things that could actually connect to this.

The crucial consideration to make was "what was Brandon before he founded House stark"? We are hinted that Brandon founded house Stark just after the long night, and build the wall and Storm's end around that time, aswell as being attributed as having a hand in the construction of the hightower and the kingsroad which runs in between Storm's end and the wall. Brandon was young when he was at Storm's end, one can deffinatly question at what station or reason he was present at that court. Who was he if the Starks didn't technicly exist yet in the north? Some vassal or kin of it? A commoner providing technical service's? At the very least, for Brandon to be able found house Stark including the construction projects required (castle, wall, road) he must have been a man with a considerable amount of influence, power and/or wealth.

Now i had considered before that Brandon the builder could have been a likely son of the first Azor Ahai, or that person who wielded the lightbringer, that is to say being the son of Azor Ahai would provide a good background for Brandon the builder to found house Stark upon, the origin of his influence and his presence at various courts.

Lets say that Azor Ahai indeed became king of the surviving poppulation of Westeros during/after the long night, not so farfetched an idea this, and that Brandon was his son and thus the heir to the Kingdom. Lets say that at the end of the long night AA is either old or died even while saving the world, the long night atleast lasted a genneration and Brandon was young at the end of ir or at the start of Dawn. Brandon inherits the title of king, though not much of a kingdom to rule presumably because the long night really ravaged the land, so stuff needs to be rebuild and thats what King Brandon is about to do. So he builds a number of key fortifications at various spots, perhaps still as crown prince, perhaps on his own accord even as king. Well we know Brandon becomes deffintly King in technical terms when he settles Winterfell if he wasn't a/the king before it. As people have noted here, the Starks had little control over the north when they settled, giving the theme and the fact that Brandon build the wall too it could be seen as a strategic move in order to defend the whole of Westeros from future long invasions and thus probably was the primary motivation for this move or these construction works rather than it would have been a move of Brandon to create his own personal fief. That is kinda logical for reasons of likely origin, youre not going to be able to claim that piece of land so simply as a practical nobody, no'r will you likely be able to muster the resources needed to do the immense amount of construction that had been undertaken in this hostile north during that time.

The wall is hughe and has a dozen castle's, Winterfell is very large too. Where did brandon muster the resources and manpower to build all that in a North that had hardly any development or order? If Brandon only wanted to claim the north, why not keeping construction limited to building a Winterfell? The wall atleast by virtue of protecting the whole of Westeros, something that undoubtably was recognised at the time when the Walls castle's were fully staffed, should have been a "national or international matter" depending on what the political structure was at the time. you could think that all parts of the 7 kingdoms actually sponsered resources for Brandon to build the wall with, and Winterfell could have been regarded as a logical part within those defensive works, but for something of that magnitude to happen you would think that it required certain leadership and unity. perhaps indeed brandon was King of the whoel of Westeros, and he build the Kingsroad on his own accord to his new capital.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

No, that would be completely unrealistic from the historical aspect and also unnecessary from story telling perspective.

[Lord Lannister]

Remains to be seen. No one can honestly say without a doubt that that is what it means. This theory will hold up until proven otherwise by GRRM

You have to have some evidence in order for a theory to hold any weight. You really don't seem to have any except the Starks are the Kings of Winter and that has to mean something.I think you're letting your liking of the Starks as a fan color your judgment.

[Waters Gate]

IDK, the foundation of House Stark raises a lot of questions, most importantly who else but a king of westeros could afford and command the construction of such vast projects in the wild north after the ravage of the first night?

I would see it as possible that Brandon Stark was king of all of Westeros, having inherited it from his father who saved Westeros during the long night and became king because of that. A Kingdom btw that is hardly one to call as such, as there would have been limited survivors and loads to rebuild. Brandon would then have build Storms end in the capacity of being his overlord, it's not a total stretch that a king could be seen as a ligitimate one in doing so after such a disasterous time, and commanding resources from the south to build the Wall and Winterfell might have seen rational and nessecary. However that would mean that the Starks would have lost their title later, though that might seem somewhat rational too, as with time there would be be repoppulation everywhere around and the Starks their influence from the north would wane due to distance and perhaps cultural differences.

[aryagonnakill#2]

TLDR: Brandon the Builder didn't come from nowhere for him to become King brandon "Stark", founder of that name. Him being the potential son of King Azor Ahai can provide a number of logical reasons on how Brandon the builder became what he was and was able to build the defensive works that were for the sake of the whole of Westeros

 

Perhaps they were, in my own research on Brandon "the builder" Stark i had considered a number of things that could actually connect to this.

The crucial consideration to make was "what was Brandon before he founded House stark"? We are hinted that Brandon founded house Stark just after the long night, and build the wall and Storm's end around that time, aswell as being attributed as having a hand in the construction of the hightower and the kingsroad which runs in between Storm's end and the wall. Brandon was young when he was at Storm's end, one can deffinatly question at what station or reason he was present at that court. Who was he if the Starks didn't technicly exist yet in the north? Some vassal or kin of it? A commoner providing technical service's? At the very least, for Brandon to be able found house Stark including the construction projects required (castle, wall, road) he must have been a man with a considerable amount of influence, power and/or wealth.

Now i had considered before that Brandon the builder could have been a likely son of the first Azor Ahai, or that person who wielded the lightbringer, that is to say being the son of Azor Ahai would provide a good background for Brandon the builder to found house Stark upon, the origin of his influence and his presence at various courts.

Lets say that Azor Ahai indeed became king of the surviving poppulation of Westeros during/after the long night, not so farfetched an idea this, and that Brandon was his son and thus the heir to the Kingdom. Lets say that at the end of the long night AA is either old or died even while saving the world, the long night atleast lasted a genneration and Brandon was young at the end of ir or at the start of Dawn. Brandon inherits the title of king, though not much of a kingdom to rule presumably because the long night really ravaged the land, so stuff needs to be rebuild and thats what King Brandon is about to do. So he builds a number of key fortifications at various spots, perhaps still as crown prince, perhaps on his own accord even as king. Well we know Brandon becomes deffintly King in technical terms when he settles Winterfell if he wasn't a/the king before it. As people have noted here, the Starks had little control over the north when they settled, giving the theme and the fact that Brandon build the wall too it could be seen as a strategic move in order to defend the whole of Westeros from future long invasions and thus probably was the primary motivation for this move or these construction works rather than it would have been a move of Brandon to create his own personal fief. That is kinda logical for reasons of likely origin, youre not going to be able to claim that piece of land so simply as a practical nobody, no'r will you likely be able to muster the resources needed to do the immense amount of construction that had been undertaken in this hostile north during that time.

The wall is hughe and has a dozen castle's, Winterfell is very large too. Where did brandon muster the resources and manpower to build all that in a North that had hardly any development or order? If Brandon only wanted to claim the north, why not keeping construction limited to building a Winterfell? The wall atleast by virtue of protecting the whole of Westeros, something that undoubtably was recognised at the time when the Walls castle's were fully staffed, should have been a "national or international matter" depending on what the political structure was at the time. you could think that all parts of the 7 kingdoms actually sponsered resources for Brandon to build the wall with, and Winterfell could have been regarded as a logical part within those defensive works, but for something of that magnitude to happen you would think that it required certain leadership and unity. perhaps indeed brandon was King of the whoel of Westeros, and he build the Kingsroad on his own accord to his new capital.

I believe Brandon the builder refers to actions of the ancient races and the geotd.  That explains multiple problems, first it explains how 1 person can do so much over such a long period of time, and secondly it explains how each individual one was accomplished.

[Waters Gate]

I believe Brandon the builder refers to actions of the ancient races and the geotd.  That explains multiple problems, first it explains how 1 person can do so much over such a long period of time, and secondly it explains how each individual one was accomplished.

Perhaps. Perhaps you are of the idea that this theory you propose is as much or few as a stretch as mine is. I would disagree. I worked from the historical persona of Brandon the builder as described in lore, and posed logical questions as to the origin of such a man if the man from lore did exist in reality. One can deffinatly question if the Brandon the Builder of lore existed or in the form described, but deviating from the lore Brandon the Builder is more of a deviation than working with lore Brandon the builder Imho.

True, my theory here hinges on Brandon the Builder being pretty litterally the person described in the books (which seems imho less of a stretch than him being completly not the person described in the books) + the idea that since he had to be of important origin before founding house Stark that he then probably was the son of Azor Ahai, or perhaps even Azor Ahai himself + that there was a king of all of Westeros in that time in the persona of Azor Ahai who earned that title by leading mankind to victory during the battle for dawn. That Azor Ahai probably led Westeros to victory over the others during the first battle of dawn is quite likely, him earning the title king for that is quite possible. The more "brave" idea seems to be the connection between Brandon and AA here, build upon the idea that Brandon must have been a person of importance and him being the son of AA or AA himself would give a good explenation.

IF lore Brandon the builder existed as in Lore, then what was his origin?

It is said somewhere that the Starks are far descendants of a heroic son "brandon of the bloody gate" of Garth Greenhand, from the old ruling house of the Reach. I could get that AA was perhaps a man of lower reach nobbilety and descendant of that particular line. Ironicly Brandon of the bloody gate was known for bathing in the blood of Cotf and giants whereas Brandon the builder build the wall with the help of the Cotf and giants. It is somewhere noted that Brandon the Builder was the son of this Brandon of the bloody gate, in which case the relations shift with Cotf and Giants would be rather perculiar. Then again the last hero supposedly needed the help of Cotf to win the war for dawn, indeed perhaps AA had been killing Cotf and giants before he allied with them, and Brandon of the bloody gate was then AA.

[Falcon2908]

Nights King = Brandon the Builder = Stark.

 

Yes.

[Grimbold]

How does your post relate to the question place in the title?

[mmenolas]

TLDR: Brandon the Builder didn't come from nowhere for him to become King brandon "Stark", founder of that name. Him being the potential son of King Azor Ahai can provide a number of logical reasons on how Brandon the builder became what he was and was able to build the defensive works that were for the sake of the whole of Westeros

 

Perhaps they were, in my own research on Brandon "the builder" Stark i had considered a number of things that could actually connect to this.

The crucial consideration to make was "what was Brandon before he founded House stark"? We are hinted that Brandon founded house Stark just after the long night, and build the wall and Storm's end around that time, aswell as being attributed as having a hand in the construction of the hightower and the kingsroad which runs in between Storm's end and the wall. Brandon was young when he was at Storm's end, one can deffinatly question at what station or reason he was present at that court. Who was he if the Starks didn't technicly exist yet in the north? Some vassal or kin of it? A commoner providing technical service's? At the very least, for Brandon to be able found house Stark including the construction projects required (castle, wall, road) he must have been a man with a considerable amount of influence, power and/or wealth.

Now i had considered before that Brandon the builder could have been a likely son of the first Azor Ahai, or that person who wielded the lightbringer, that is to say being the son of Azor Ahai would provide a good background for Brandon the builder to found house Stark upon, the origin of his influence and his presence at various courts.

Lets say that Azor Ahai indeed became king of the surviving poppulation of Westeros during/after the long night, not so farfetched an idea this, and that Brandon was his son and thus the heir to the Kingdom. Lets say that at the end of the long night AA is either old or died even while saving the world, the long night atleast lasted a genneration and Brandon was young at the end of ir or at the start of Dawn. Brandon inherits the title of king, though not much of a kingdom to rule presumably because the long night really ravaged the land, so stuff needs to be rebuild and thats what King Brandon is about to do. So he builds a number of key fortifications at various spots, perhaps still as crown prince, perhaps on his own accord even as king. Well we know Brandon becomes deffintly King in technical terms when he settles Winterfell if he wasn't a/the king before it. As people have noted here, the Starks had little control over the north when they settled, giving the theme and the fact that Brandon build the wall too it could be seen as a strategic move in order to defend the whole of Westeros from future long invasions and thus probably was the primary motivation for this move or these construction works rather than it would have been a move of Brandon to create his own personal fief. That is kinda logical for reasons of likely origin, youre not going to be able to claim that piece of land so simply as a practical nobody, no'r will you likely be able to muster the resources needed to do the immense amount of construction that had been undertaken in this hostile north during that time.

The wall is hughe and has a dozen castle's, Winterfell is very large too. Where did brandon muster the resources and manpower to build all that in a North that had hardly any development or order? If Brandon only wanted to claim the north, why not keeping construction limited to building a Winterfell? The wall atleast by virtue of protecting the whole of Westeros, something that undoubtably was recognised at the time when the Walls castle's were fully staffed, should have been a "national or international matter" depending on what the political structure was at the time. you could think that all parts of the 7 kingdoms actually sponsered resources for Brandon to build the wall with, and Winterfell could have been regarded as a logical part within those defensive works, but for something of that magnitude to happen you would think that it required certain leadership and unity. perhaps indeed brandon was King of the whoel of Westeros, and he build the Kingsroad on his own accord to his new capital.

"having a hand in the construction of ... the kingsroad" - I was under the impression that the Kingsroad was fairly recent, built during the reign of Jaehaerys.

Also, Durran built Storm's End, and a legend says a child that would grow up to be Bran the Builder gave advice.

You're making some massive assumptions here. You're assuming things to be literally true, that even the text doesn't establish as factual.  You're assuming every legend, or possible legend, regarding Bran the Builder is true, and from that making even wilder leaps and conclusions...  And you've got some of your facts just plain wrong...

[Waters Gate]

"having a hand in the construction of ... the kingsroad" - I was under the impression that the Kingsroad was fairly recent, built during the reign of Jaehaerys.

Also, Durran built Storm's End, and a legend says a child that would grow up to be Bran the Builder gave advice.

You're making some massive assumptions here. You're assuming things to be literally true, that even the text doesn't establish as factual.  You're assuming every legend, or possible legend, regarding Bran the Builder is true, and from that making even wilder leaps and conclusions...  And you've got some of your facts just plain wrong...

Massive assumptions? On the ASOIAF forum?? Well i never!!!

 

Yes i am making assumptions, those that fit my own theory or ideas regarding the persona of Brandon Stark. Mind you i'm not saying my theory is true, what i'm rather arguing is that questions i had relating the origin of the mythical Brandon the builder could find an fairly rational explenation, and this is given in the context of the Question if Starks could have ever been the kings of the whole of Westeros, or more specific "kings of winter"-> King during the long night or the start of dawn.

 

As to the specificallity's, from the text you could take the hint that Brandon was indeed involved with the construction of the original Kingsroad but Jaehaerys probably improved on it. As to Duran and building Storms end, he failed 6 times and it would seem that it took the Boy Bran the Builder to make a succesfull design it would seem, that makes Bran for a large part the builder of Storm's end even if he had no hand inthe physical construction, and btw neither had Duran likely a physical hand in that construction rather than "having orderd it". One can ask the question "who build the new Saint Peters Basilica" in Rome. Was this Pope julius II because he ordered it, or was it Bramante and Rafael who designed it and oversaw it's construction. Eitherhow semantics aside, the question remains who was Young Bran the builder for not being a Stark or lord of Winterfell, since Stark and Winterfell was founded by the later construction of Winterfell? A young boy with so much clout and knowledge that he is granted the these construction works?

 

As a last remark, it's imho more correct to take Canon litteral than to propose abstractions of it as more likely, even if Canon often conflicts. I know you cannot hold litteral canon as certaintly true, but otoh what else then to take as source for information? We can only take our info from Grrm's writings, thus inperfect Canon is still the best source of information. Typicly when making a theory on mystery's or mysterious peopel youre going to collect all the canon material that you can get from the books and try to connect the dot or the silver line. The chance of succesfully finding the silver line in the wood of canon is rahter small i admit, but i do think that my theorising takes a fairly rational form of processing the information and providing certain "possibillety's". Aka for Brandon the Builder to become the mythical person of canon, there is a rational likelyhood that he was already a very important person even if he technicly hadn't founded his house or castle yet, thus already being of royal blood is a good option.

[WhitewolfStark]

"having a hand in the construction of ... the kingsroad" - I was under the impression that the Kingsroad was fairly recent, built during the reign of Jaehaerys.

Also, Durran built Storm's End, and a legend says a child that would grow up to be Bran the Builder gave advice.

You're making some massive assumptions here. You're assuming things to be literally true, that even the text doesn't establish as factual.  You're assuming every legend, or possible legend, regarding Bran the Builder is true, and from that making even wilder leaps and conclusions...  And you've got some of your facts just plain wrong...

Pretty much this. Brandon the Builder is attributed to have given advice to building Storm's End in the way that one would expect after the fact. He pops up in the story as an obvious addition that is trying to bank on the Stark legend to further add prestige to the castle's construction.

Which implies that the addition had to come after the Starks had established themselves and likely only dates to after the Starks established themselves as a family of importance.

Likewise, saying that the Starks are descended from Brandon of the Bloody Blade marks me as the Gardener's attempts to "put the Starks in their place"--especially considering in the North, no such connection is made to Garth of the Greenhand and Brandon the Builder. It also add splendor to the Gardeners because, of course only one of their scions of Garth Greenhand could do what the Starks did.

To me, this suggests pre-Targaryen alliances fossilized in time. The Storm Kings were friendly with the Starks, while the Gardeners looked down upon the Starks--probably because the Storm Kings were friendly and the Reach and the Storm Kings often clashed.

[StarkofWinterfell]

If Brandon the Builder built the Citadel and Storm's End, that is further evidence that the Starks once ruled all of Westeros. 

Because why would a Stark build those anyway?

[Municipal Engines]

It's interesting to note that one of the traditional royal titles of the North is "the King in the North", not "the King of the North". All the other kings are called "King of the Rock", "King of the Reach", "King of the Vale" etc (ie. King of so-and-so). The Northern kings are different, and King in the North is their most-used title. It would make sense for them to say "in" rather than "of" if their kingdom had vassals outside of the North or even paramountcy among the Westerosi rulers at some point in time.

To me it sounds a lot like "The King on the Iron Throne" or "the King in King's Landing"; phrases used to denote where the king of all Westeros lives and rules from. 

[Lord Wraith]

If Brandon the Builder built the Citadel and Storm's End, that is further evidence that the Starks once ruled all of Westeros. 

Because why would a Stark build those anyway?

That's a myth like everything else from the Age of Heroes. There are no written records from the period so we really don't know if he built it or the Wall or Winterfell.

[purple-eyes]

At least the history of dorne is quite clear, no stark ruler for 10000 years. 

[Municipal Engines]

It's interesting to note that one of the traditional royal titles of the North is "the King in the North", not "the King of the North". All the other kings are called "King of the Rock", "King of the Reach", "King of the Vale" etc (ie. King of so-and-so). The Northern kings are different, and King in the North is their most-used title. It would make sense for them to say "in" rather than "of" if their kingdom had vassals outside of the North or even paramountcy among the Westerosi rulers at some point in time.

To me it sounds a lot like "The King on the Iron Throne" or "the King in King's Landing"; phrases used to denote where the king of all Westeros lives and rules from. 

Also, they could have achieved at least nominal High Kingship for a while during and after the Long Night, with the role LH/AA and/or Brandon the Builder had in bringing the dawn and ousting the Others; all the First Men recognised them as "the King in the North" but then their authority over others declined and became forgotten.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

If Brandon the Builder built the Citadel and Storm's End, that is further evidence that the Starks once ruled all of Westeros. 

Because why would a Stark build those anyway?

Wouldn't that make Uthor of the High Tower the King of Westeros; as it was his lands and he hired Brandon the Builder or his son (neither known as a King) to rebuild the High Tower.

 

I mean if you are going to take legends seriously then do it properly, Brandon was in service to at least two Kings. He was obeying their orders.

[desire]

Until we have a dire wolf in Dorne then nah