Cerseis trial by combat

[Valetudo]

Oh the show...

In my opinion wherever the show tried to diverge formt he books in Season 5 they messed up bigtime. And this particular nuance - sex with Lancel before or after Stannis' death seems lost on them. In the show the High Septon basically said the same thing - the other charges need to be investigated in a trial. So a trial is taking place, and if its a trial Cersei can invoke Trial by Combat

Yes, that's what we're talking about. They do some minor changes and then never care about the consequences of these changes.

It's a minor plot hole, one that most viewers will not see, but it's still one. They could have avoided it easily by sticking to the books, but no, they needed to do some random change just because.

[Andorion]

One of my biggest gripes in Season 5 was the Loras hearing where the High Septon sent Loras to a trial and Margaery to a cell on the unsupported testimony of a confessed homosexual about a birthmark he had every innocent reason to see as Loras' squire.

I mean I don't expect the High Septon to be fair but Lady Olenna - the Tyrell's Tywin just sat there gaping instead of using this gigantic discrepancy to bring down all sorts of grief on the High Septon. Also what happened to Margaery's famous popularity with the poor of KL? In the book her arrest was not at all popular.

After this, the Cersei thing is rather minor slip. The directors were clearly not interested in the nuances and intricacies surrounding KL politics

[Valetudo]

One of my biggest gripes in Season 5 was the Loras hearing where the High Septon sent Loras to a trial and Margaery to a cell on the unsupported testimony of a confessed homosexual about a birthmark he had every innocent reason to see as Loras' squire.

I mean I don't expect the High Septon to be fair but Lady Olenna - the Tyrell's Tywin just sat there gaping instead of using this gigantic discrepancy to bring down all sorts of grief on the High Septon. Also what happened to Margaery's famous popularity with the poor of KL? In the book her arrest was not at all popular.

After this, the Cersei thing is rather minor slip. The directors were clearly not interested in the nuances and intricacies surrounding KL politics

Everything is superficial on this show. But looking at critics, one could think that it's the most thoughtful show ever.

[A Ghost of Someone]

You call for a trial by combat when you refuse to admit that you're guilty. When you've already confessed, there's no point. It's like saying "I did it but let the gods decide if I did it or not". If you could ask for a trial by combat after confessing, why didn't Ned ask for one?

Tyrion called for trial by combat after the trial was not going his way. Cersei babbled to get out of their custody but was still entitled to a trial.

[A Ghost of Someone]

You call for a trial by combat when you refuse to admit that you're guilty. When you've already confessed, there's no point. It's like saying "I did it but let the gods decide if I did it or not". If you could ask for a trial by combat after confessing, why didn't Ned ask for one?

Ned was threatened with the lives of his daughters, Sansa and Arya. He knew Arya was ok when they trotted him out at the Sept but in the end, it was to save Sansa and he got beheaded via a doublecross by Joffrey, highly suspected at the backroom advice of Littlefinger. Dead men tell no tales and Ned would have ruined Littlefinger's reputation even if he was sent to the wall.

[Valetudo]

Tyrion called for trial by combat after the trial was not going his way. Cersei babbled to get out of their custody but was still entitled to a trial.

Tyrion never confessed anything. A trial by combat is used when two sides are contradicting each other. The gods are then supposed to choose one side, so who wins is right and who lose is wrong in the eye of the Seven. 

In Cersei's case, just looking at the adultery, there's no side to choose since the two sides are telling the same thing. The trial is perfectly understandable for the other crimes she denied, but not for this one. We're not talking about a modern society tribunal.

Even with a confession, the sentence for Tyrion's crime (regicide= high treason) should have been death, but Tywin was OK to send him to the Wall, a lesser sentence but still pretty hard, and that was an exception  because the judge was his father. For Cersei, forgiving high treason with the Walk of Shame is pretty generous. She should have at least been banished or something.

But lets follow show logic. So Cersei asks for a trial by combat and wins it. So what happens with her confession? If she's proven innocent, she was then lying, right? And what happens to people committing perjury (hmmm, Marge)?

There's no point in trying to search excuses for something they just didn't thought of.

[Valetudo]

Double Post

[A Ghost of Someone]

You call for a trial by combat when you refuse to admit that you're guilty. When you've already confessed, there's no point. It's like saying "I did it but let the gods decide if I did it or not". If you could ask for a trial by combat after confessing, why didn't Ned ask for one?

Well, then the faith dropped the ball to an extent but then again, if the faith came out and said "behind closed doors, the queen confesses, therefore our judgement is so and so" it would lose legitimacy. Ned was tricked into making a public confession. Tyrion's trial had an audience etc... Certain things need to be whitness to give them legitmacy. Ie Book marriage to fake Arya (jeyne poole and Ramsay. Or, lets chalk it up to plothole error. I do agree with you though, she has said enough to atleast lose her head, if she was in the Kingdom of Henry VIII anyways.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Tyrion never confessed anything. A trial by combat is used when two sides are contradicting each other. The gods are then supposed to choose one side, so who wins is right and who lose is wrong in the eye of the Seven. 

In Cersei's case, just looking at the adultery, there's no side to choose since the two sides are telling the same thing. The trial is perfectly understandable for the other crimes she denied, but not for this one. We're not talking about a modern society tribunal.

Even with a confession, the sentence for Tyrion's crime (regicide= high treason) should have been death, but Tywin was OK to send him to the Wall, a lesser sentence but still pretty hard, and that was an exception  because the judge was his father. For Cersei, forgiving high treason with the Walk of Shame is pretty generous. She should have at least been banished or something.

But lets follow show logic. So Cersei asks for a trial by combat and wins it. So what happens with her confession? If she's proven innocent, she was then lying, right? And what happens to people committing perjury (hmmm, Marge)?

There's no point in trying to search excuses for something they just didn't thought of.

Agree, not the best example by me but please see my post above this, maybe a better explanation as to why she was not summarily executed for it.

[dsug]

She has a trial by combat to settle the charges of incest and regicide. The big ones. 

[Valetudo]

She has a trial by combat to settle the charges of incest and regicide. The big ones. 

Read the previous posts.

We were talking about the fact that she already confessed to high treason (adultery). That's already the biggest thing you can be accused of. As big as incest or regicide for medieval law. So having a trial for the other accusations is useless.

We all know that the show will do as you say and a vast majority of the viewers will not care about such details, but like I said earlier, it's still a plot hole (albeit a minor one).

[Valetudo]

Well, then the faith dropped the ball to an extent but then again, if the faith came out and said "behind closed doors, the queen confesses, therefore our judgement is so and so" it would lose legitimacy. Ned was tricked into making a public confession. Tyrion's trial had an audience etc... Certain things need to be whitness to give them legitmacy. Ie Book marriage to fake Arya (jeyne poole and Ramsay. Or, lets chalk it up to plothole error. I do agree with you though, she has said enough to atleast lose her head, if she was in the Kingdom of Henry VIII anyways.

I agree that the show can still make it "legally accurate" if they tried, but I have little faith about it. They will certainly just forget and move on, like they did with so much other things.

What really is annoying is that they brought this to themselves by adding one line telling she slept with Lancel because Rob was always whoring when this doesn't bring anything new to the table. If they kept it like in the books (I slept with Lancel because I missed my dead husband, or something like that, stating clearly that she only slept with him after Rob's death), this problem would not exist.

And I'm not saying that because I'm a book purist who doesn't admit changes, I would have been totally OK with it if the change didn't bring unnecessary problems, or at least if it was significative enough, but that's not the case here

[A Ghost of Someone]

I agree that the show can still make it "legally accurate" if they tried, but I have little faith about it. They will certainly just forget and move on, like they did with so much other things.

What really is annoying is that they brought this to themselves by adding one line telling she slept with Lancel because Rob was always whoring when this doesn't bring anything new to the table. If they kept it like in the books (I slept with Lancel because I missed my dead husband, or something like that, stating clearly that she only slept with him after Rob's death), this problem would not exist.

And I'm not saying that because I'm a book purist who doesn't admit changes, I would have been totally OK with it if the change didn't bring unnecessary problems, or at least if it was significative enough, but that's not the case here

I agree with you completely. They seem so clumsy with their own editing and conflicting what is viewed and aired and something like this, they probably do not care about but it adds up for those of us that notice.

[TheCasualObserver]

Oh the show...

In my opinion wherever the show tried to diverge from the books in Season 5 they messed up bigtime. And this particular nuance - sex with Lancel before or after Robert's death seems lost on them. In the show the High Septon basically said the same thing - the other charges need to be investigated in a trial. So a trial is taking place, and if its a trial Cersei can invoke Trial by Combat

I'll give the writers a round of applause if Cersei wins the trial and proves her innocence... before being executed anyway for already admitting to a capital crime. 

[TheCasualObserver]

I agree that the show can still make it "legally accurate" if they tried, but I have little faith about it. They will certainly just forget and move on, like they did with so much other things.

What really is annoying is that they brought this to themselves by adding one line telling she slept with Lancel because Rob was always whoring when this doesn't bring anything new to the table. If they kept it like in the books (I slept with Lancel because I missed my dead husband, or something like that, stating clearly that she only slept with him after Rob's death), this problem would not exist.

And I'm not saying that because I'm a book purist who doesn't admit changes, I would have been totally OK with it if the change didn't bring unnecessary problems, or at least if it was significative enough, but that's not the case here

It's actually the easiest possible problem to solve with just a single change in the dialogue: "A husband who was off whoring every chance he got" becomes "A husband who had been dead for a year! I was lonely and afraid!"

Instead the decision was made to offer up a modern excuse for cheating: "he was doing it too!" in order to further garner sympathy for Cersei. And in doing so they break the rules of their own story.

[Valetudo]

It's actually the easiest possible problem to solve with just a single change in the dialogue: "A husband who was off whoring every chance he got" becomes "A husband who had been dead for a year! I was lonely and afraid!"

Instead the decision was made to offer up a modern excuse for cheating: "he was doing it too!" in order to further garner sympathy for Cersei. And in doing so they break the rules of their own story.

That's a typical "butterfly effect" kind of change. By changing one line for no reason, they created a huge problem. Or at least it would have been one if they cared about this kind of details. But they'll simply forget about it and everyone will be happy because "cool combat".

I'll give the writers a round of applause if Cersei wins the trial and proves her innocence... before being executed anyway for already admitting to a capital crime. 

That would be actually SHOCKING! She wins the trial but then,..., Drama!

[Andorion]

I'll give the writers a round of applause if Cersei wins the trial and proves her innocence... before being executed anyway for already admitting to a capital crime. 

Ah but you forget she has Frakengregor/Mountainstein (Pick one) now. I think that trial by combat is going to turn into a "kill them all" type bloody rampage, culminating in a short reign of terror by Cersei where Tyrells and Faith people are slaughtered before Cersei herself falls in bloody chaos

[dsug]

This seems a little bit like grasping at straws to me. One flippant outburst by Cersei is not really enough evidence one way or the other. It is never said whether he is dead or alive, so they could really just add that he was already dead at some point and that would be that. 

Also, maybe the show is just doing away with the rule about a queen cheating being high treason. I know how much you guys love "nuance" and "depth" and stuff, but it's kind of irrelevant. As of now, HBO's Cersei Lannister is currently on trial for murdering a King and installing bastards born of incest on the Iron Throne. Sounds about right. 

[El Guapo]

It's not a question of knowing if Lancel is old enough to be her children's father, it's just that, by medieval law, adultery for a queen was punishable by death, no matter who was the man or when it was done.

Of course, the show will twist this saying that Westeros is not Medieval Europe, but this is just another example of a random change done without thinking of the consequences. (Hitting someone of royal blood was also a serious offense, and we've seen how it ended with Bronn and Trystane). 

Yes we did. It was established in the episode that hitting someone of royal blood was a serious crime and that it was up to Prince Trytane to decide the punishment.  He decided on mercy, which makes complete sense in the episode as Doran had just explained how important it was for Dorne to keep the alliance with the Iron Throne and Jamier had agreed to all his demands.  This just seems like another one of those things that people complain about just to complain about something.