The Grimdark Appreciation thread II

[C.T. Phipps]

Let's try this again.

This is a thread for the devotees of the newly emerging genre of grimdark fiction. Gritty and dark fantasy are nothing new to the world, dating back to the Epic of Gilgamesh and Greek Mythology, but the concept of grimdark is a relatively new one. It was a descriptor initially aimed at (what else?) A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE by fantasy fans who didn't like George R.R. Martin's visceral aromantic take on fiction. Since that time, it's been expanded to include authors like JOE ABERCROMBIE, RICHARD K. MORGAN, ROB HAYES (great guy I know), MARK LAWRENCE, ROBIN HOBB, SCOTT LYNCH, ANDRJEZ SAPKOWSKI, and TIM MARQUITZ (the last of whom is my publisher--*waves hi to Tim*).

My personal theory is "modern" grimdark begins with Michael Moorcock as my idea is grimdark is inherently reactionary. It's the idea of taking the genre and then making the darkest most bleak tale you can from the material. Michael Moorcock is famous for his own reactionary ideas of fantasy and the Elric Saga is certainly bleak fantasy which ends badly for our hero and the world. I also tend to view Sword and Sorcery as "proto-Grimdark" with the swashbuckling adventures of its heroes contrasted with uncaring corrupt worlds.

There's no one true accepted definition of grimdark but, for me, it's all about setting your heroes in a setting which doesn't have any safeties. It's an unromantic view of the world which, ironically, has its own romance itself. Worlds of corruption, classicism, meat, sweat, blood, dung, unfairness, and narratives which neither reward good or evil--just depict events which can go any which way. There are monsters in grimdark and supernatural forces but they tend to be alien, inscrutable, and uncontrollable.

Our heroes very often aren't able to change the world for the better (sometimes they can, of course, but it's hard going) and must content themselves with the small victories. Sometimes they simply must content themselves with losing with dignity.

It is....bluntly....DARK FICTION.

Fantasy Punk.

And this is thread to talk about it.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I don't think Grimdark is particularly useful as a term. Or at least useful as something other than a pejorative (to me it connotes the image of Dimmu Borgir sitting round a table playing Warhammer 40k - an attempt at dark fiction that has become a self-parody).

I mean, C.S. Lewis literally kills off almost his entire main cast and destroys the world, but Narnia is not what you think of when the term Grimdark is used. Tolkien's Hobbit has the good guys squabbling over treasure, and LOTR has an on-screen suicide, a swamp of corpses, catapulted heads, and a hero who fails in his Quest (let's not even touch The Silmarillion). Neither is classically "Grimdark" (indeed, Tolkien gets denounced by Moorcock in his idiotic Epic Pooh essay). 

Really, I'd define Grimdark less by how dark the material is, and more by how self-conscious the darkness is. Is it simply throwing rape/murder/death at the reader in order to make itself more "adult"? This is what I mean by the use of Grimdark as a pejorative: it's a text that claims to be "dark, man, dark", as if darkness is an end unto itself.

[Jo498]

Isn't maybe a rather cynical tone of the narrative more characteristic than the actual "darkness"? Tolkien's heroes might fail but they are still heroes and the tone is "heroic". (That's also why I would not call the Iliad "grimdark", despite anatomically precise descriptions of spear entry points.)

[The Marquis de Leech]

Pratchett's cynical, but he isn't Grimdark.

[Darth Richard II]

I too think grimdark is s stupid term, but it's here to stay. We have a grimdark magazine now for fucks sake. It's use as a insult has faded as well.

[Darth Richard II]

I don't know why that's in spoiler tags. This new forum man...

[Ser Drizztos]

I'm not sure this is the best time. Threads will be purged again some time soon from what I understand.

PS: Your list is missing Scott R. Bakker, an underappreciated author but somewhat of an inside tip among fans of the genre.

[Jo498]

I think Pratchett is often too ironic and too much of a "Dickensian humanist" to count as cynical in the grimdark sense. to my recollection he is also not as explicit/brutal.

BTW I didn't mean to defend the usefulness of the term, just to try to narrow it down a little.

[HexMachina]

Isn't maybe a rather cynical tone of the narrative more characteristic than the actual "darkness"? Tolkien's heroes might fail but they are still heroes and the tone is "heroic". (That's also why I would not call the Iliad "grimdark", despite anatomically precise descriptions of spear entry points.)

OP lists Hobb as grimdark and I would not call her books cynical. Bleak, yes. Cynical no.

[C.T. Phipps]

I'm not sure this is the best time. Threads will be purged again some time soon from what I understand.

I'll save the opener then. Does anyone know when they're going to be having the final version up? I'm not very good at navigating announcements.

[C.T. Phipps]

Cormac McCarthy certainly writes stuff which is grim and dark, however to say he writes grimdark is to be misleading. He doesn't write fantasy, the fantastical elements of Blood Meridian aside. Instead, he has written post-apocalypse tales, dramas, and Westerns. For me, I think people need to stop getting so damned hung up on the word "grimdark" because it seems like it's something which sticks in a lot of people's craw. It's not something you want to make too big of a deal of it.

It's just, to me, "gritty dark adult fantasy and science fiction."

Or, hell, just the name.

"Grim and Dark"

Can you say a piece of fiction, at least of the science fiction and fantasy genre, is grim and dark?

Then it's grimdark.

There, done.

Stephen King is a grimdark fantasy author because of The Dark Tower but he writes horror for the most part. Tor.com had an interesting article about this recently.

Grimdark versus Horror

[SeanF]

I don't think Grimdark is particularly useful as a term. Or at least useful as something other than a pejorative (to me it connotes the image of Dimmu Borgir sitting round a table playing Warhammer 40k - an attempt at dark fiction that has become a self-parody).

I mean, C.S. Lewis literally kills off almost his entire main cast and destroys the world, but Narnia is not what you think of when the term Grimdark is used. Tolkien's Hobbit has the good guys squabbling over treasure, and LOTR has an on-screen suicide, a swamp of corpses, catapulted heads, and a hero who fails in his Quest (let's not even touch The Silmarillion). Neither is classically "Grimdark" (indeed, Tolkien gets denounced by Moorcock in his idiotic Epic Pooh essay). 

Really, I'd define Grimdark less by how dark the material is, and more by how self-conscious the darkness is. Is it simply throwing rape/murder/death at the reader in order to make itself more "adult"? This is what I mean by the use of Grimdark as a pejorative: it's a text that claims to be "dark, man, dark", as if darkness is an end unto itself.

I tend to use the term to mean Dark Fantasy.

So, I do think it's applicable to some of Tolkien.  Parts of the Silmarillion (and the stories it's based on, like The Children of Hurin) read like a horror story, even though Tolkien never wrote pages of torture porn.  And in LOTR, we get sentient, malevolent trees, wights, the Watcher in the Water, Ori's diary ("drums, drums in the Deep.  They are coming......), cannibalism (as a 12 year old, I gagged at the idea of Gollum climbing into bedrooms, to look for newborns) the catapulted heads that you mention, the descriptions of the Dead Marshes, Mordor and its approaches, not to mention a whole heap of implications that are fuel for nightmares.

What exactly are the Houses of Lamentation that the Witch King threatened Eowyn with (they sound far worse than an ordinary dungeon or torture chamber?) How exactly was Celebrian "tormented in the dens of the orcs?"  Who were the victims at the "dreadful scene of feast and slaughter " that Sam came across?  How do you cross-breed humans and orcs? etc.

ETA:  I just read Epic Pooh.  I wonder if Moorcock has even read the books he's criticising.

[mgambino]

Well, rather than discuss what is and isn't grimdark, I'll just talk about a few books/series that may (or may not) be grimdark that I've read recently.

1. The Blood War Trilogy- Tim Marquirtz. I found this to be wholly average. Marquitz's writing style is very similar to R.A. Salvatore, IMO, in both good (action scenes) and bad (dialogue) ways. The series felt a lot like an unlicensed  Forgotten Realms novel with a bit of moral ambiguity thrown in.

2 In the Wake of the Templars Trilogy- Loren Rhodes: I liked this. It's a science-fiction, romance (with a bit of interspecies sex thrown in) mash up that is both grim and dark. Pretty good stuff for anyone likes intergalactic assassins, space pirates, and healthy dose of violence. 

3. Coldfire Trilogy: C.S. Friedman. Doesn't get much more morally questionable than the hunter. Gotta love a heroic main character that feeds off of  torture and fear. This was one of the best fantasy trilogies I have ever read. Seriously, it's brilliant.

 

[red snow]

Luke Scull claims he's grimdark so that's safe. I'm enjoying his second book "sword of North" although it's clear that the book would be even better if it just focused on Kayne. Davarus is a weird one as he'd work as some kind of grimdark comedy but it doesn't gel so well with the other elements.

[Ser Drizztos]

I tend to use the term to mean Dark Fantasy.

Why not just call it Dark Fantasy then?  

[C.T. Phipps]

Why not just call it Dark Fantasy then?  

Because Dark Fantasy sounds incredibly twee and like we're fourteen year olds trying to sound cool.

Which grimdark TOTALLY DOES NOT.

[C.T. Phipps]

Well, rather than discuss what is and isn't grimdark, I'll just talk about a few books/series that may (or may not) be grimdark that I've read recently.

1. The Blood War Trilogy- Tim Marquirtz. I found this to be wholly average. Marquitz's writing style is very similar to R.A. Salvatore, IMO, in both good (action scenes) and bad (dialogue) ways. The series felt a lot like an unlicensed  Forgotten Realms novel with a bit of moral ambiguity thrown in.

Disclaimer: I freely admit to being biased since I know Tim personally and he publishes Esoterrorism so take anything I say about him with a grain of salt.

Be that as it may, I liked the Blood War Trilogy a great deal (I also like Salvatore, albeit I never read past the 4th Edition transfer) and think it's kind of on the penumbra of grimdark since it's more or less a standard bunch of fantasy heroes in a J.R.R Tolkien-kind of situation only the consequences of said situation get explored. Like, basically, it turns genocide by orcs is pretty damn horrible (I also give props for making the orcs into cannibal wolfmen). It's not going to win any awards for the greatest fantasy novel of all time but I really enjoyed it.

I think a better fit for grimdark fiction by Tim Marquitz is DIRGE, which was a book which was supposed to be part of a larger series but ended up being a stand-alone for various reasons as I understand it. It's basically taking a female version of Garret from the Thief series and then dumping them in the zombie apocalypse as controlled by a league of necromancers. What does one do when the world is about to end and you're only motivated by money and kicks? Very dark yet very well-written.

Tim Marquitz is, basically, a author who seems to do a lot more high fantasy sort of stuff than grimdark is typically associated with. In your typical grimdark novel, magic is more like Melisandre or Bayaz and you don't get to see it used like in D&D where it's more common in Tim's worlds and more tool-like but people are still enormous bastards.

[C.T. Phipps]

Oh, the DARK FANTASY concept gets made fun of by Yahtzee on The Escapist for those who don't believe grimdark is a useful term.

I can laugh at my fandom so I don't mind.

*Warning - Language because it's the Escapist and they swear like, well, people do in real life*

Yahtzee review of Dragon Age: Origins

[mgambino]

I'd probably read another Marquitz book sometime. I don't really think there's anything wrong with an average series... Not everything has to be a game changer.

Plus, I like Salvatore too. I like great dialogue, but sometimes I also like just reading about orcs getting kicked in the teeth... Yay fantasy!

[C.T. Phipps]

I'd probably read another Marquitz book sometime. I don't really think there's anything wrong with an average series... Not everything has to be a game changer.

Plus, I like Salvatore too. I like great dialogue, but sometimes I also like just reading about orcs getting kicked in the teeth... Yay fantasy!

I like most of his work. I wasn't a big fan of WITCH BANE which is much more on the fantasy side of thing than his usual dark fantasy, being basically fantasy Star Wars (which is basically Willow), but am very fond of his urban fantasy series DEMON SQUAD and CLANDESTINE DAZE. Demon Squad is funny and irreverent but definitely, "just read it for fun" sort of books while CD is more "really, really dark urban fantasy with a bastard protagonist." Sadly, sad bastard isn't the selfish cool kind but the self-hating soldier kind.

As for my current grimdark reading?

On my end, I've since caught up on my GRIMDARK ESSENTIALS by reading THE FIRST LAW TRILOGY and THE BROKEN EMPIRE TRILOGY. I'm now torn between reading Richard K. Morgan's LAND FIT FOR HEROES and following up on Joe Abercrombie and Mark Lawrence's other works. Rob J. Hayes was also kind enough to give me a sneak peak at his upcoming sequel to THE TIES THAT BIND series which is GRIMDARK PIRATES (which should have been a thing before this--and no, that's not the title sadly). The benefits of being an insider now, I suppose.

Tough call as to what to read next.