peterbound Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Adrian Collins had a great story about how he e-mailed 100 authors from George R.R. Martin to Abercrombie to Sanderson and asked if any wanted to participate. He expected, hoped even, maybe five or six out of the hundred would respond to get the magazine off the ground. He was stunned when EVERY SINGLE AUTHOR got back to them and reacted positively to the idea of contributing something. Even if quite a few, Martin included, didn't have time at present.Kind of a heartwarming moment for such a dark magazine.Sounds like just what you said. A story. Are you on the American or British side because all the grousing about the monarchy and national make-fun-of-royals I know comes from U.K. citizens?Americans often have a "oh, isn't this so pretty" touristy feel to it.How did this become a monarchy thread? I lived over there and never understood the monarchy, but I never really had that big of a reaction to it either way. Maybe US authors present the idea of monarchy in a negative light more? I can say this though, the brits i worked with never, ever made fun of the monarchy in front of me. Hell, it was a point of pride for them, they loved that shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Sounds like just what you said. A story. How did this become a monarchy thread? I lived over there and never understood the monarchy, but I never really had that big of a reaction to it either way. Maybe US authors present the idea of monarchy in a negative light more? I can say this though, the brits i worked with never, ever made fun of the monarchy in front of me. Hell, it was a point of pride for them, they loved that shit. People make fun of the monarchy and Royal family as a whole all the time over here. For most people, i think they just see it as something thats there, and they have no strong feelings one way or the other. A question of what the Queen actually does is generally met with blank stares. It seems, at least to me, that only a minority hold strong pro- or anti-monarchy opinions. Most people seem indifferent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 Westeros is in no way the basis of all grimdark. I think it is because I don't think of grimdark as something "new." I think of it as the current cusp of a phenomenon which dates back to the original blood and guts fantasy of Gilgamesh but which is very much a current trend in literary fiction started by the popularity of "A Song of Ice and Fire." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 Sounds like just what you said. A story. Hey, Peterbound, why don't you buy a copy of the article I wrote published by Adrian Collins?Grimdark Magazine 5#The one where I talk about purely noble and good heroes in grimdark as one of the valid archetypes.But I think you knew about that and just were grousing again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 ASoIaF wasn't immediately popular though. Also there;s been plenty of grimdark pre GoT. Glen Cook, Donaldson, Kurtz. Heck a lot of gimrdark authors havn't even read GRRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 ASoIaF wasn't immediately popular though. Also there;s been plenty of grimdark pre GoT. Glen Cook, Donaldson, Kurtz. Heck a lot of gimrdark authors havn't even read GRRM.John R. Fultz (The Testament of Tall Eagle) wrote an article for Grimdark Magazine about how he considered grimdark to be the concept of Sword and Sorcery for the 21st century. I tend to think Donaldson, Cook, Moorcock and others are "proto-Grimdark" because it wasn't until Martin and I'd argue Abercrombie in specific that the style really became formalized.Even then, my argument about Donaldson not being grimdark is because no one called it grimdark until the term existed in the late Nineties.If he, Cook, and others are grimdark then it's retroactively. This is all academic, of course, but came up in a similar discussion whether Bladerunner was cyberpunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 John R. Fultz (The Testament of Tall Eagle) wrote an article for Grimdark Magazine about how he considered grimdark to be the concept of Sword and Sorcery for the 21st century. I tend to think Donaldson, Cook, Moorcock and others are "proto-Grimdark" because it wasn't until Martin and I'd argue Abercrombie in specific that the style really became formalized.Even then, my argument about Donaldson not being grimdark is because no one called it grimdark until the term existed in the late Nineties.If he, Cook, and others are grimdark then it's retroactively. This is all academic, of course, but came up in a similar discussion whether Bladerunner was cyberpunk.Again, I think you're forcing the importance of this term too much (and by extension your own opinion). Proto Grimdark? We should be calling everything else post donaldson, or cook. Just because you make up a term doesn't mean that it defines a huge piece of work like that, and that they somehow can't own it because you think you are the gate keeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Yeah no, just because a term didn't exist doesn't mean what the term refers to did not exist beforehand. And Fultz is a hack. And the fuck? If you don't think blade runner is cyber punk...I don't even know where to go with that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xray the Enforcer Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 [mod] Get back to topic, please. And leave the personal commentary out of it. Thank you. [/mod] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuenjato Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 John R. Fultz (The Testament of Tall Eagle) wrote an article for Grimdark Magazine about how he considered grimdark to be the concept of Sword and Sorcery for the 21st century. I tend to think Donaldson, Cook, Moorcock and others are "proto-Grimdark" because it wasn't until Martin and I'd argue Abercrombie in specific that the style really became formalized.Even then, my argument about Donaldson not being grimdark is because no one called it grimdark until the term existed in the late Nineties.If he, Cook, and others are grimdark then it's retroactively. This is all academic, of course, but came up in a similar discussion whether Bladerunner was cyberpunk.You should check out the Thieves' World serial from the early 80's. Grimdark in embryo. Not that great after the 3rd or 4th book, but it definitely had some moments -- torture, prostitution, assassination, some casual bestiality in book 5, from what a remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 Yeah no, just because a term didn't exist doesn't mean what the term refers to did not exist beforehand. And Fultz is a hack. And the fuck? If you don't think blade runner is cyber punk...I don't even know where to go with that one.Perhaps. I've made a similar argument Rossum's Universal Robots is the first cyberpunk novel. But cyberpunk as a concept exists after Bladerunner. William Gibson, famously being upset that the movie took all of the concepts in his head and made Neuromancer feel derivative.You may be right, though, because "hardcore fantasy" has existed under a variety of labels dating back since fantasy was first published and certainly during the 20th century.An old gamer friend of mine said that previous iterations of grimdark would be called: "Metal Fantasy, Grognard, dark fantasy, Sword and Sorcery, and Adult Fantasy."The latter, of course, has a different meaning now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 You should check out the Thieves' World serial from the early 80's. Grimdark in embryo. Not that great after the 3rd or 4th book, but it definitely had some moments -- torture, prostitution, assassination, some casual bestiality in book 5, from what a remember.It's on my list since The Spoony Experiment did a WONDERFUL Thieves World RPG story which is worth listening to if you've got a couple of hours to kill.Thieves World part 1Thieves World part 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgambino Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 [mod] Get back to topic, please. And leave the personal commentary out of it. Thank you. [/mod]Dude, you modded out my Star Wars quote. Total nerd fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 I've made a similar argument Rossum's Universal Robots is the first cyberpunk novel. But cyberpunk as a concept exists after Bladerunner. William Gibson, famously being upset that the movie took all of the concepts in his head and made Neuromancer feel derivative.Science-fiction as a term was only popularised in the 1930s. By that reasoning, H.G. Wells' Time Machine doesn't count as science-fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 It's on my list since The Spoony Experiment did a WONDERFUL Thieves World RPG story which is worth listening to if you've got a couple of hours to kill. Ahhh spoony. Loved his ultima stuff, but he totally pussed out when he had a chance to confront LB about the absolute pieces of dogshit that were 8 and 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted December 6, 2015 Author Share Posted December 6, 2015 Ahhh spoony.Loved his ultima stuff, but he totally pussed out when he had a chance to confront LB about the absolute pieces of dogshit that were 8 and 9.....What...I'm marking this occasion.I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 ....What...I'm marking this occasion.I agree with you.Cool, now stop trying to get me banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted December 6, 2015 Author Share Posted December 6, 2015 Cool, now stop trying to get me banned. How about you avoid the personal insults and I'll avoid mentioning my stuff outside the threads which deal with Self-Promotion and authorship.Deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 How about you avoid the personal insults and I'll avoid mentioning my stuff outside the threads which deal with Self-Promotion and authorship.Deal?Neither one of those things are going to happen. Guess we'll have to stick with the status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted December 6, 2015 Author Share Posted December 6, 2015 Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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