The Heresy essays: X+Y=J- Howland + Lyanna=Jon

[wolfmaid7]

 What could have happened is not an evidence of what did happen especially when there is no sensory and logical evidence (which the author does use) available. So sorry i'm not buying fire was used when nothing in Ned's memory or even his dream tells us that happened.

But your incorrect on one matter....Me not seeing the flaw in the arguement i already gave my opinions when i first posted.But i'll say them again.

1. The toj and it's introduction doesn't tell us who Jon's parents are.Unless it is actually relevant to Jon's parentage it should be involved.

2.I like the inversion of the gender types putting Howland as the damsel in distress i could see Martin doing something like that to be honest.

3. There's contact and there's time together not a lot but a little more closer in him spending time with her being nursed and just hagning around them.

4.From Meera's story there's a hint with him wanting to crown her there was probably a bit more than a feeling of appreciation.

5. There's definitely the Beltane theme going on but i don't think Howland applies though he may have studied with them.

6. This may not have been FFR focus i don't know if he saw anything but i think this essay is also missing connections between the three.

I think the strongest part of the essay is point 2 and 3 

[wolfmaid7]

 None of the boded negates what i'm saying its not proof. Let me put a bit of pizzaz on an example.

I've had a reoccuring dream of Uncle Lucky  faced down in blood on grass,and girls skipping to a namless song and a young girl floating in a muddy pool.

Uncle Lucky was the first death i saw as a result of violence,the girls skipping the way it looked i can't remember something like that and there was a drowning that happened when i was young visting my mom.However non of these incidences happened in real life at the same time.They were years a part.

Dreams happen like this its not sequential or the elements may not have occured together.And in this case when you compare Ned's dream to his waking accounts one cannot dismiss what is there and what is not.

But as i said this isn't really important for discovering if Howland and Lyanna are Jon's parents.As i said in my initial post it need not have even been mentioned at all.

 

[Ygrain]

No that's not evidence what's wrong with you guys?That's call "precedence"

That does not prove Ned did that with Lyanna. You all can guess it you can't prove it because there's NO evidence it was done.....at all at the tower.
 

It's simple, dear Watson: in the text, there are introduced three means of preparing the body for transport: bugs, fire, Silent Sisters. Never, ever, is it mentioned anywhere that someone would traipse along the countryside with a dessicating body. Therefore, the OP's argument that this is what Ned must have done doesn't hold water because there is zero textual support for this and out of those three means mentioned, at least one is relatively quick and easy to arrange. In other words, nope, Ned almost certainly did no such thing because there were other means, less offending to the body, not to mention the noses of those involved, that would solve the problem

Which again is futile at this point.Precedence does not equate evidence.

Precedence allows for things that could have been done, whereas lack of precedence points to things that, most likely, were not done.

 What could have happened is not an evidence of what did happen especially when there is no sensory and logical evidence (which the author does use) available. So sorry i'm not buying fire was used when nothing in Ned's memory or even his dream tells us that happened.

But your incorrect on one matter....Me not seeing the flaw in the arguement i already gave my opinions when i first posted.But i'll say them again.

1. The toj and it's introduction doesn't tell us who Jon's parents are.Unless it is actually relevant to Jon's parentage it should be involved.

2.I like the inversion of the gender types putting Howland as the damsel in distress i could see Martin doing something like that to be honest.

3. There's contact and there's time together not a lot but a little more closer in him spending time with her being nursed and just hagning around them.

4.From Meera's story there's a hint with him wanting to crown her there was probably a bit more than a feeling of appreciation.

5. There's definitely the Beltane theme going on but i don't think Howland applies though he may have studied with them.

6. This may not have been FFR focus i don't know if he saw anything but i think this essay is also missing connections between the three.

I think the strongest part of the essay is point 2 and 3 

It's kinda difficult to see the connections when my quote is deleted.

1. The ToJ is important, because one has to do wonderful mental gymnastics to explain why Rhaegar named it ToJ (using capitalisation for the sake of clarity of reading) and why he left his personal guard there

2. Yeah, Howland being saved by Lyanna is indeed a nice inversion of the damsel in distress, but it doesn't require the cliche to go on.

3.Yes, there is time. No hint at anything else.

4. IIRC, that hint comes from Bran, because that's the way stories usually go.

5. On that we can agree, that Howland doesn't apply.

6. Between whom?

2 and 3 are the strongest points in the sense that they don't contain contradictions but, unfortunately, they don't contain anything remotely similar to any evidence, either. 

 None of the boded negates what i'm saying its not proof. Let me put a bit of pizzaz on an example.

I've had a reoccuring dream of Uncle Lucky  faced down in blood on grass,and girls skipping to a namless song and a young girl floating in a muddy pool.

Uncle Lucky was the first death i saw as a result of violence,the girls skipping the way it looked i can't remember something like that and there was a drowning that happened when i was young visting my mom.However non of these incidences happened in real life at the same time.They were years a part.

Dreams happen like this its not sequential or the elements may not have occured together.And in this case when you compare Ned's dream to his waking accounts one cannot dismiss what is there and what is not.

But as i said this isn't really important for discovering if Howland and Lyanna are Jon's parents.As i said in my initial post it need not have even been mentioned at all.

 

Can't see anything bolded, so I don't know what it is that you are contradicting. The problem with your version is that you are describing a real dream, whereas the ToJ dream is a piece of literature, written with a certain purpose in mind. The purpose is to drop hints for the reader about what happened with Lyanna, and the dream is the chosen medium because it allows for leaving out bits that would be too obvious. At the same time, the hints must "develop" - keep adding information. The knights and the tower belong together, and if this is where Lyanna died, then it adds to the memory of her death scene and gives us location. If she died elsewhere, then what is the purpose of including her in the dream at all? It doesn't bring anything new and it introduces a new problem of why the hell the three KG fought Ned in front of an empty tower.

Ned's waking account focuses on the outcome of the fight because of Jory's death - he remembers that Jory is dead, thinks of sending his body to Winterfell and this train of thought leads directly to Jory's father's death and his burial. 

And as I said above, explaining the ToJ scene is important because it points towards someone else than Howland.

[kimim]

 None of the boded negates what i'm saying its not proof. Let me put a bit of pizzaz on an example.

I've had a reoccuring dream of Uncle Lucky  faced down in blood on grass,and girls skipping to a namless song and a young girl floating in a muddy pool.

Uncle Lucky was the first death i saw as a result of violence,the girls skipping the way it looked i can't remember something like that and there was a drowning that happened when i was young visting my mom.However non of these incidences happened in real life at the same time.They were years a part.

Dreams happen like this its not sequential or the elements may not have occured together.And in this case when you compare Ned's dream to his waking accounts one cannot dismiss what is there and what is not.

But as i said this isn't really important for discovering if Howland and Lyanna are Jon's parents.As i said in my initial post it need not have even been mentioned at all.

 

Happily that was not written by GRRM :/

Please have mercy on the text.

What do you mean by "...when you compare Ned's dream to his waking accounts one cannot dismiss what is there and what is not"???

Re "this isn't really important for discovering if Howland and Lyanna are Jon's parents," would Rhaegar order three of his best knights to defend Reed's paramour, instead of fighting with him at the Trident? I don't have the highest opinion of Rhaegar, but this is ridiculous, even for him. If Lyanna gave birth and died at toj, then Reed can't be the father of her child, so yes, her place of death is crucial for this argument to work. 

[wolfmaid7]

 Simple Ned tells us what he did with the bodies of his fallen and the KGS.We see that it should be no biggie to mention what he did with Lyanna that's not a gap.That's an intentional ommission and so we have to ask ourselves why.Will it add,detract or do nothing to mention her? He also vividly gives us what he did....He remembers it.

We have Ned's account of Lyanna's death what he sees,smells,remembers and doesn't remember. We get a room that smells like blood and roses. Ok why? The Princes Pass if that's where Rhaegar's tower of joy was doesn't have agarden near by doesn't it.Plus,if we recall this is a war with battles and skirmishes taking place in different places including on the borders .So what does that tell us? 

Whereever she is must have access to flowers and if secrecy is an issue no one is going to be running flower duty from god knows where to the tower to keep the room comfortable with flowers.

Wherever she was at it took care of both.

Plus i have to ask where are you getting that Rhaegar ordered his three best KGS to guard Lyanna? 

[wolfmaid7]

 

It's simple, dear Watson: in the text, there are introduced three means of preparing the body for transport: bugs, fire, Silent Sisters. Never, ever, is it mentioned anywhere that someone would traipse along the countryside with a dessicating body. Therefore, the OP's argument that this is what Ned must have done doesn't hold water because there is zero textual support for this and out of those three means mentioned, at least one is relatively quick and easy to arrange. In other words, nope, Ned almost certainly did no such thing because there were other means, less offending to the body, not to mention the noses of those involved, that would solve the problem

 

Precedence allows for things that could have been done, whereas lack of precedence points to things that, most likely, were not done.

 

It's kinda difficult to see the connections when my quote is deleted.

1. The ToJ is important, because one has to do wonderful mental gymnastics to explain why Rhaegar named it ToJ (using capitalisation for the sake of clarity of reading) and why he left his personal guard there

2. Yeah, Howland being saved by Lyanna is indeed a nice inversion of the damsel in distress, but it doesn't require the cliche to go on.

3.Yes, there is time. No hint at anything else.

4. IIRC, that hint comes from Bran, because that's the way stories usually go.

5. On that we can agree, that Howland doesn't apply.

6. Between whom?

2 and 3 are the strongest points in the sense that they don't contain contradictions but, unfortunately, they don't contain anything remotely similar to any evidence, either. 

 

Can't see anything bolded, so I don't know what it is that you are contradicting. The problem with your version is that you are describing a real dream, whereas the ToJ dream is a piece of literature, written with a certain purpose in mind. The purpose is to drop hints for the reader about what happened with Lyanna, and the dream is the chosen medium because it allows for leaving out bits that would be too obvious. At the same time, the hints must "develop" - keep adding information. The knights and the tower belong together, and if this is where Lyanna died, then it adds to the memory of her death scene and gives us location. If she died elsewhere, then what is the purpose of including her in the dream at all? It doesn't bring anything new and it introduces a new problem of why the hell the three KG fought Ned in front of an empty tower.

Ned's waking account focuses on the outcome of the fight because of Jory's death - he remembers that Jory is dead, thinks of sending his body to Winterfell and this train of thought leads directly to Jory's father's death and his burial. 

And as I said above, explaining the ToJ scene is important because it points towards someone else than Howland.

1. On the contra i think one has to do mental gymnastic to come up with Rhaegar naming the tower joy. Do you know when he named it? Pay attention to language.

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed."

In the text it is NOT capitalized by the way.Where do you get a temporal naming of the tower from this or that it had anything to do with Lyanna?The way Ned characterized it,this seemed almost common knowledge of those parts.

2. Oh my i could think of many ways the cliche is being pushed beyond its borders,so why not this one as well.What is good for the Goose.

3.Time? Are you using "no time" as an arguement? Seriously, i wouldn't use that one considering the common thinking. 

4.What Bran presented wasn't a hint,it was a statement of belief as he knows it.Just like we got Rhaegar ran off with Lya.This has more to do with the perception of a percieved event from two different sides.None of which may never have happened because there's no proof that Rhaegar had anything to do with Lya's disappearence.There is a belief i give you that.

I am describing a dream within the bounds of what the author has put forth.He by the way has 'real dreams" in mind when he warns us the readers about Ned's dream. You can't sidestep that. The difference is i'm looking at the dream for what it is and identifying what it the dream is symbolic,literal and what makes sense given the environment and Ned's recollection. What can be gleaned from what he told us about these events while awake.He is describing two seprate events that converged in a dream.

[Ygrain]

 Simple Ned tells us what he did with the bodies of his fallen and the KGS.We see that it should be no biggie to mention what he did with Lyanna that's not a gap.That's an intentional ommission and so we have to ask ourselves why.Will it add,detract or do nothing to mention her? He also vividly gives us what he did....He remembers it.

 Yes, it is certainly an intentional omission, but what exactly is your issue here? It follows the pattern established before - the memories of Lyanna come up in bits and pieces which are never explained or elaborated on. One might almost say that she is mentioned as if in passing because to Ned, in whose head we are, explanations are not necessary. There is no requirement for him to go into all the details

We have Ned's account of Lyanna's death what he sees,smells,remembers and doesn't remember. We get a room that smells like blood and roses. Ok why? The Princes Pass if that's where Rhaegar's tower of joy was doesn't have agarden near by doesn't it.Plus,if we recall this is a war with battles and skirmishes taking place in different places including on the borders .So what does that tell us? 

 

Whereever she is must have access to flowers and if secrecy is an issue no one is going to be running flower duty from god knows where to the tower to keep the room comfortable with flowers.

First, you don't know whether there are gardens or not. Second, there are many species of wild-growing roses which do not require gardens. Third, there is this thing called potpourri. Perhaps there were dried roses, like the ones Lyanna was holding? Perhaps blue roses retain their scent even when dried? 

There is no requirement for gardens.

Plus i have to ask where are you getting that Rhaegar ordered his three best KGS to guard Lyanna? 

"If Prince Rhaegar gave them such an order..." /GRRM/

The order apparently wasn't from Aerys, or else he would have used Lyanna to bring Ned and Robert in line. Rhaegar was entitled to give such an order, the guys seen the last time in his company were guarding the tower... it follows that they were acting on Rhaegar's orders. What is your issue with this?

1. On the contra i think one has to do mental gymnastic to come up with Rhaegar naming the tower joy. Do you know when he named it? Pay attention to language.

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed."

In the text it is NOT capitalized by the way.Where do you get a temporal naming of the tower from this or that it had anything to do with Lyanna?The way Ned characterized it,this seemed almost common knowledge of those parts.

Again, your reasoning is rather cryptic here. "It was said" - omits the source of information, does not necessarily imply wide knowledge. "had named" - the timing precedes the chronological line of the narrative. "tower of joy", uncapitalised - it was not a name as such but a personal reference to the location, much the same way two lovers would call their place "love nest". Don't see what's temporal about it, except that hardly anyone called it so after Rhaegar died. Nor do I see wh such a personal label should be a common knowledge - like, do you imagine Rhaegar going shopping and then saying that he had to return to his tower of joy?

Now, do you have an explanation why a guy who was known to be melancholic referred to a place as "tower of joy", and why a woman that he was supposedly in love with is connected to the place? Of course, it might be that it was where Rhaegar had hot sex with Arthur, but I somehow doubt that it was the case.

BTW, I have already stated that I keep capitalising the place (especially when using an abbreviation), for the sake of easy reading.

Hm, come to think of it, I'd say that the lack of capitalisation in the text might suggest that, unlike with Joyous Gard, "tower of joy" was not commonly known.

 

2. Oh my i could think of many ways the cliche is being pushed beyond its borders,so why not this one as well.What is good for the Goose.

"Could" is not enough substance for claiming that this is what GRRM necessaril did.

 

3.Time? Are you using "no time" as an arguement? Seriously, i wouldn't use that one considering the common thinking. 

The same as above - an intersection in time between two persons is not enough substance to build a romance on. 

 

4.What Bran presented wasn't a hint,it was a statement of belief as he knows it.Just like we got Rhaegar ran off with Lya.This has more to do with the perception of a percieved event from two different sides.None of which may never have happened because there's no proof that Rhaegar had anything to do with Lya's disappearence.There is a belief i give you that.

Could you quote the part of the story you are referring to? I cannot find anything about Howland wanting to crown Lyanna, only Bran inserting that he should have because this is what story knights usually do. Nor am I getting the parallel with Lyanna's disappearing.

 

I am describing a dream within the bounds of what the author has put forth.He by the way has 'real dreams" in mind when he warns us the readers about Ned's dream. You can't sidestep that. The difference is i'm looking at the dream for what it is and identifying what it the dream is symbolic,literal and what makes sense given the environment and Ned's recollection. What can be gleaned from what he told us about these events while awake.He is describing two seprate events that converged in a dream.

I am not sidestepping anything, he clearly wrote a dream sequence with the attributes of a dream sequence. I am just saying that a purposeful act of creation is held to a logic which our subconsciousness lumping things together lacks.

The bolded is a bold assumption which has zero text support. "It is a dream" does not provide sufficient base for such a claim, and your argument about lack of gardens has about as much weight as FFR's claim that Ned dragged along Lyanna's dessicating corpse. Textual evidence linking Lyanna to another place, please.

 

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

 Yes, it is certainly an intentional omission, but what exactly is your issue here? It follows the pattern established before - the memories of Lyanna come up in bits and pieces which are never explained or elaborated on. One might almost say that she is mentioned as if in passing because to Ned, in whose head we are, explanations are not necessary. There is no requirement for him to go into all the details

 

First, you don't know whether there are gardens or not. Second, there are many species of wild-growing roses which do not require gardens. Third, there is this thing called potpourri. Perhaps there were dried roses, like the ones Lyanna was holding? Perhaps blue roses retain their scent even when dried? 

There is no requirement for gardens.

 

"If Prince Rhaegar gave them such an order..." /GRRM/

The order apparently wasn't from Aerys, or else he would have used Lyanna to bring Ned and Robert in line. Rhaegar was entitled to give such an order, the guys seen the last time in his company were guarding the tower... it follows that they were acting on Rhaegar's orders. What is your issue with this?

 

 

Again, your reasoning is rather cryptic here. "It was said" - omits the source of information, does not necessarily imply wide knowledge. "had named" - the timing precedes the chronological line of the narrative. "tower of joy", uncapitalised - it was not a name as such but a personal reference to the location, much the same way two lovers would call their place "love nest". Don't see what's temporal about it, except that hardly anyone called it so after Rhaegar died. Nor do I see wh such a personal label should be a common knowledge - like, do you imagine Rhaegar going shopping and then saying that he had to return to his tower of joy?

Now, do you have an explanation why a guy who was known to be melancholic referred to a place as "tower of joy", and why a woman that he was supposedly in love with is connected to the place? Of course, it might be that it was where Rhaegar had hot sex with Arthur, but I somehow doubt that it was the case.

BTW, I have already stated that I keep capitalising the place (especially when using an abbreviation), for the sake of easy reading.

Hm, come to think of it, I'd say that the lack of capitalisation in the text might suggest that, unlike with Joyous Gard, "tower of joy" was not commonly known.

 

 

"Could" is not enough substance for claiming that this is what GRRM necessaril did.

 

 

The same as above - an intersection in time between two persons is not enough substance to build a romance on. 

 

 

Could you quote the part of the story you are referring to? I cannot find anything about Howland wanting to crown Lyanna, only Bran inserting that he should have because this is what story knights usually do. Nor am I getting the parallel with Lyanna's disappearing.

 

 

I am not sidestepping anything, he clearly wrote a dream sequence with the attributes of a dream sequence. I am just saying that a purposeful act of creation is held to a logic which our subconsciousness lumping things together lacks.

The bolded is a bold assumption which has zero text support. "It is a dream" does not provide sufficient base for such a claim, and your argument about lack of gardens has about as much weight as FFR's claim that Ned dragged along Lyanna's dessicating corpse. Textual evidence linking Lyanna to another place, please.

 

 

 

1. The ommission leaves a trail of breadcrumbs that's the issue

2.I do know that there aren't gardens because never have any been mentioned.And you can't go making up stuff that isn't in the text.What could be only has merit if there's some evidence.Other than that you are just guessing and that is a guess.The man doesn't write a novel with themes that plainly indicate that we should be observant and then ask us to be claivoyant.

3. Ygrain there's no proof that Rhaegar was ever in love with Lyanna.There are conclusions drawn b people based on the assumption that he ran off with her.....He ran off with her thus he loved her you see how problematic that is.So therefore,making yet another assumption that he named that tower about Lyanna is just as problematic.There is no proof.There's a bunch of assumptions......Rape or he loved her so he stole her.That's the beauty of the song singers sing.Until you observe closely and remove the BS.

4. No lack of capitalizaton doesn't mean it wasn't commonly known.Its what he called it and so that's it.

5. The bolded is exactly what you have been doing for pages now and i totally agree with you by the way.Frey Family Reunion can then now present evidence of what could.

6. My reasoning is cryptic because as i said there is no temporal indication for when Rhaegar started calling it that.But my idea is sound in how the location is characterized.It was just something he called it.We don't know where he got the info but we can't assume that it had something to do with Lyanna directly when there's nothing indicating it does.

7. And going back again to what i said GRRM warns us that this is a dream and that our dreams aren't always literal so he is using real world templates for that. The man isn't unrealistic in things that shouldn't be.But Ned's momories and lack there of when he's awake recounting the same incidents when compared to the dream gives the truth. If the dream is a representation of what happened and not to be looked at against the logic of Ned's really memory then you know that little quib of your about it being cliched.....Yeahhhhh that would be it right there.That is as cliched as it gets my friend.

8. Secon bolded i'm glad you said that

9. On GRRM's quote about Rhaegar giving an order to the KGS.No Ygrain Lyanna has nothing to do with that:

Per http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm, a transcript of an interview a student did with GRRM years back:

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

 

 

The question had nothing to do with Lyanna.At all.

The quote with Howland you remembered it right.Bran was the one who said that should have happened.

Lastly, my thought about the gardens or lack there of has more weight than an invisible field of potpouri Ygrain.No matter how you try to spin that.That is Ludicrious .

If there's a jumbled up mess of puzzle pieces on a table and one piece is removed you can't tell the difference that anything was removed.If its laid out a certain way though and a piece is removed you see it and you also see how the picture is suppose look.

GRRM all through this story has been telling us through characters that we have to be observant. See with our eyes,taste with our tounge,feel with our skin.Then comes the thinking.

1. There's mention of rose smells in the room Lya died because it is a clue to where she is and where she's not.And all this talk of potpouri gardens that could be there in the Princes Pass and not a soul has ever mentioned it is just refusing to admit she may not have been there.

 

[kimim]

 

Now, do you have an explanation why a guy who was known to be melancholic referred to a place as "tower of joy", and why a woman that he was supposedly in love with is connected to the place? Of course, it might be that it was where Rhaegar had hot sex with Arthur, but I somehow doubt that it was the case.

I've given up on finding reason in this thread, so I'll go with this one. Rhaegar is in love with Arthur. The two guys have a lot of respect for Lyanna, as they saw what she did to protect Reed. She, meanwhile, is pregnant, as she had a fling with Jory Cassel's daddy. So Lyanna sends a raven to Rhaegar, who decides that he's had it with court politics, etc. He's practically murdered his poor wife trying to give the realm heirs. He'll go off to his tower of joy, bring his beloved Arthur, and Lyanna, who deserves better. So he does. All goes well, until Rhaegar is forced to fight on the trident, and Lyanna dies in childbirth.

edit: Goes without saying that Rhaegar named the "tower of joy" after Arthur's tower of joy. It's beautiful. 

[Ygrain]

 

1. The ommission leaves a trail of breadcrumbs that's the issue

2.I do know that there aren't gardens because never have any been mentioned.And you can't go making up stuff that isn't in the text.What could be only has merit if there's some evidence.Other than that you are just guessing and that is a guess.The man doesn't write a novel with themes that plainly indicate that we should be observant and then ask us to be claivoyant.

Wut? A lot of things are not directly mentioned, yet it doesn't mean that they are nonexistent. Plus, what exactly am I making up? Existence of wild rose species which are abundant in our world? The fact that a lot of plants retain their fragrance even when they are dried, and guess what? Lyanna is described as having some in her hand?

 

3. Ygrain there's no proof that Rhaegar was ever in love with Lyanna.There are conclusions drawn b people based on the assumption that he ran off with her.....He ran off with her thus he loved her you see how problematic that is.So therefore,making yet another assumption that he named that tower about Lyanna is just as problematic.There is no proof.There's a bunch of assumptions......Rape or he loved her so he stole her.That's the beauty of the song singers sing.Until you observe closely and remove the BS.

Ah, nonsense. There is the vision of Rhaegar dying with her name on his lips, there is Ned thinking that Rhaegar wasn't  a rapist and the like. Plus, I haven't yet heard your explanation why Rhaegar called the place ToJ if it wasn't because of Lyanna. "It's an assumption" is about as valid reasoning as "it's a dream", which is not valid at all.

 

6. My reasoning is cryptic because as i said there is no temporal indication for when Rhaegar started calling it that.But my idea is sound in how the location is characterized.It was just something he called it.We don't know where he got the info but we can't assume that it had something to do with Lyanna directly when there's nothing indicating it does.

The same as above - so what does it have to do with and why are we given this information at all?

 

7. And going back again to what i said GRRM warns us that this is a dream and that our dreams aren't always literal so he is using real world templates for that. The man isn't unrealistic in things that shouldn't be.But Ned's momories and lack there of when he's awake recounting the same incidents when compared to the dream gives the truth. If the dream is a representation of what happened and not to be looked at against the logic of Ned's really memory then you know that little quib of your about it being cliched.....Yeahhhhh that would be it right there.That is as cliched as it gets my friend.

I am quite convinced that the dream convo is not a recording of what was actually said, that there was no Lyanna screaming and that there was no storm of blue rose petals. I might even consider that there was no initial convo like that and that the fight might have occured only after Ned had promised to Lyanna to take care of Jon. But these are, so to say, insubstantial details - the gist of the dream remains the same, it is about the KG, the tower, and Lyanna. There is nothing indicating that Lyanna was elsewhere.

- Pray, if Lyanna was elsewhere, what are the three KG doing at this particular spot? A coincidental random meeting at a place which Rhaegar happened to call "tower of joy"?

 

8. Secon bolded i'm glad you said that

9. On GRRM's quote about Rhaegar giving an order to the KGS.No Ygrain Lyanna has nothing to do with that:

The question had nothing to do with Lyanna.At all.

Ah. So you presume that Rhaegar ordered the KG to guard an empty tower? 

 

The quote with Howland you remembered it right.Bran was the one who said that should have happened.

I am completely at a loss. How does Bran's assumption, based on story cliches, indicate that Howland wanted to crown Lyanna?

 

Lastly, my thought about the gardens or lack there of has more weight than an invisible field of potpouri Ygrain.No matter how you try to spin that.That is Ludicrious .

Potpourri

 

If there's a jumbled up mess of puzzle pieces on a table and one piece is removed you can't tell the difference that anything was removed.If its laid out a certain way though and a piece is removed you see it and you also see how the picture is suppose look.

GRRM all through this story has been telling us through characters that we have to be observant. See with our eyes,taste with our tounge,feel with our skin.Then comes the thinking.

1. There's mention of rose smells in the room Lya died because it is a clue to where she is and where she's not.And all this talk of potpouri gardens that could be there in the Princes Pass and not a soul has ever mentioned it is just refusing to admit she may not have been there.

Check the link above what potpourri is. Also do some research into the conditions in which wild roses grow.

[Ygrain]

I've given up on finding reason in this thread, so I'll go with this one. Rhaegar is in love with Arthur. The two guys have a lot of respect for Lyanna, as they saw what she did to protect Reed. She, meanwhile, is pregnant, as she had a fling with Jory Cassel's daddy. So Lyanna sends a raven to Rhaegar, who decides that he's had it with court politics, etc. He's practically murdered his poor wife trying to give the realm heirs. He'll go off to his tower of joy, bring his beloved Arthur, and Lyanna, who deserves better. So he does. All goes well, until Rhaegar is forced to fight on the trident, and Lyanna dies in childbirth.

edit: Goes without saying that Rhaegar named the "tower of joy" after Arthur's tower of joy. It's beautiful. 

Yes, this is one of the most reasonable posts on this thread. Cassels are important people in Winterfell, Martyn was proud, it definitely wouldn't be out of character for him to think that he could have a fling with a daughter of Winterfell. He and Lyanna would have spent a lot of time together - definitely more than she did with Howland - so he really shouldn't be excluded from our list of candidates for Jon's parentage. I think that Ned labelling him as "proud" is an indication that Martyn reached above his status, and that his promise to Lyanna not to tell anyone was to protect both Lyanna and Martyn's honour, as well as not to hurt Jory.

Poor Rhaegar, he took the blame on himself and died for it, that's why Arthur smiles sadly in Ned's dream, and the "tower long fallen" refers to his lack of erection after Rhaegar departed. 

Perhaps I should make an essay on this, I'm sure that digging into the text would provide me some more clues. It is so good to know that the Cassel bloodline still lives!

[kimim]

 

Perhaps I should make an essay on this, I'm sure that digging into the text would provide me some more clues. It is so good to know that the Cassel bloodline still lives!

Oh you should! I'm trying to get over my Christmas Eve stupor, so I can't. But at least there's textual evidence for this one. It keeps Jon totally Northern, keeps the Cassel line alive, and offers bonus Arthur and Rhaegar, who are almost the same age, so not disturbing the way Lyanna and Rhaegar are. It also offers a kinder explanation for Rhaegar's adultery: Rhaegar was never into women, and Elia knew it. He closed his eyes and did it in the name of a Targ heir, then watched Elia nearly die twice, producing said heirs. Elia was totally fine when he left with Arthur. She's had it with childbirth and with a husband who's not into her. Maybe she was hoping to stock up on Moon Tea, find a nice paramour, and live happily ever after on Dragonstone. 

Everyone sounds SO much nicer this way.

[Ygrain]

Everyone sounds SO much nicer this way.

... and Arthur's tower of joy sounds really adorable

[LmL]

 

 

No, the dream itself doesn't show that but the dream doesn't have to. The description of it, which is not part of the dream because it's Ned's conscious mind speaking, clearly does show that though. The dream is about 3 knights in white cloaks, a tower long fallen and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

This description actually strengthens the idea that Lyanna was at the tower of joy, because it's not part of the dream. Ned was not in a poppy-induced, dream state when the description of the dream - the "plot" of it, if you will - was recalled.

 

Really, Wolfmaid? You're still making this dreadful argument about the roses? Even after people have showed you repeatedly that the red mountains are fertile - not a desert - and that Lyanna's rose petals were black and dead? But this issue still puzzles you?

And yes, Ygraine, we have yet to hear any plausible suggestion as to why the Kingsguard would be guarding an empty tower. That's just nonsensical to begin with, which is why there is no good explanation. KG guard the royal family, not empty towers. There's just no other discernible motivation. Some people are just trying soooooo hard to not see something, but the fact is the dream is about Lyanna becaus she was there. The KG were there because Lyanna's kid was royalty. That's it - there is no other plausible explanation which anyone has put forward. We're still stuck on the same issues every non-RLJ theory has, and there's been absolutely no progress in this regard. Of course they weren't guarding an empty tower. 

Consider this from the opposite angle. You are George Martin. You are writing Neds ToJ dream recall. You intend that Lyanna is in the tower. How exactly do you write this scene? Should Lyanna be hanging out the window, visible? That's doesn't make much sense - she's sick in a bed of blood. So, how do you place her in the scene? Well, you describe the dream as being about Lyanna, the KG, and the tower. You place her scream and her rose petals in the scene. And that's what we see. 

The dream is written exactly as it should be if Lyanna is in the tower, lying sick. We wouldn't see her in the dream - she's inside the tower, in a room that smells of blood and roses. We can't see her, but we hear her and see her symbols there. 

Honestly I don't think Martin was even intending Lyanna's presence there to be ambiguous. He showed as clearly as possible that she was there. I think that's why most people just find these "Lyanna wasn't there" arguments bizarre and nonsensical. All of WeaselPie's hubbub about the app will be for naught. But hey, that's just my opinion. So whatever. 

[Black Crow]

And yes, Ygraine, we have yet to hear any plausible suggestion as to why the Kingsguard would be guarding an empty tower. That's just nonsensical to begin with, which is why there is no good explanation. KG guard the royal family, not empty towers. There's just no other discernible motivation.

Au contraire. We don't actually know they were guarding anybody or anything.

Lord Eddard's dream was triggered by a totally futile fight which saw his men slaughtered uselessly and for no good reason. The collective speech by the three knights is all about their failing their duty to Aerys because they were far away and now refusing to surrender although all is lost, because their honour demands it.

There's also an absence of anybody else; no squires, grooms, or anybody else. Rather than their guarding the tower by standing outside outside, the whole atmosphere is one of a pre-arranged rencounter at a designated meeting place - the OK Corral rather than the Alamo.

I'm open to the "traditional" interpretation, but its not the only plausible one.

[Ygrain]

Well, some people apparently step out of their house after a rainy night when everything is soaked wet but they still claim that this is no proof of anything because we cannot exclude an army of pranksters with garden hoses.

For this other scenario to be true, we need satisfactory answers for:

- why did Rhaegar call the place ToJ?

- why were the KG at ToJ?

- why did Ned go to ToJ?

- why did the KG fight Ned?

- why does the dream include Lyanna if she was elsewhere?

- why does the dream include blue roses, like the ones that Lyanna got from Rhaegar?

... and, of course, the one that we never get an answer for from those who keep dronning "it's a dream": where the hell was Lyanna if not at ToJ and what are the textual hints for it?

 

 

 

[Taenqyrhae]

People sure are defensive of their hidden prince!  Folks, remember that the tone of these heresy threads is supposed to be higher and more respectful than the typical forum Team Stannis vs. Team Dany arguments.  You are in this thread to discuss the theory, not let the world know how stupid you think it is.

[Ygrain]

Well, do you have answers for those questions I posted above? 

[Consigliere]

Well, do you have answers for those questions I posted above? 

I seriously doubt it. Seems to me that some people, in a feeble attempt to avoid answering those questions, resort to trying to police these heresy threads instead. I'm still waiting for all that "plenty, plenty" evidence that places Lyanna elsewhere.

[Black Crow]

Well, do you have answers for those questions I posted above? 

I don't and have never claimed to know all the answers but a number of them are set out in my three Ronin essay.