The Heresy essays: X+Y=J- Howland + Lyanna=Jon

[Regular John Umber]

Here is where things get interesting.  We are introduced to something called a Valyrian Sphinx.  It has the body of a dragon, but the head of a human. 

TPTWP is a legend that has endured for a thousand years.  Dragon riders existed throughout the time that the Maesters or Targaryens have tried to decipher the meaning of TPTWP.  The lack of dragons and dragon riders is a mere blip in the radar of the events of the last thousand years.  So I don't think TPTWP is a mere dragon rider.

I think tying dragons into another form of magic, skin changing, is the key.  A skinchanger's consciousness is transported into the body of another.  Even after the skinchanger dies his consciousness can still exist even in a submerged way in another body.  Think Orell's eagle, and the ravens that contained the consciousnesses of COTF.  I think the riddle of the sphinx, is finding a way for a human consciousness to find a true second life in the form of a dragon.

In fact the Targaryens seem obsessed with this possibility, Aerion drinks wildfire with the belief that he will be reborn as a dragon.  Aerys concocts a plot to burn down King's Landing along with himself under the belief that he will be reborn as a dragon.

My thought is that TPTWP is the third sacrifice, whose consciousness will be come the dominant consciousness of a dragon.

If Rhaegar believed himself to be TPTWP then perhaps this explains his almost psychic connection with Summerhall and with the people that died there.  Perhaps all were supposed to share a consciousness with a dragon which was to have been hatched at Summerhall.  Literally, a dragon with three heads or consciousnesses.

 

 Ah man, thanks for replying. That makes such sense, such obvious sense. And, interestingly (given the title of this thread) that would actually make the RLJ case slightly stronger (and this is coming from a denier!).  It would give motive for needing Lyanna, and for the merging of a warg bloodline with dragon bloodline.

[LmL]

 

 

 Ah man, thanks for replying. That makes such sense, such obvious sense. And, interestingly (given the title of this thread) that would actually make the RLJ case slightly stronger (and this is coming from a denier!).  It would give motive for needing Lyanna, and for the merging of a warg bloodline with dragon bloodline.

This would make Jon the ideal person to potentially skinchange a dragon, no? Not something I've really ever predicted from Jon, but thinking about it in this light...

[J. Stargaryen]

In any case, your idea and FreyFamily's idea are quite similar. And wasn't there an extra layer of meaning provided by the idea of Valyrian lemurs, with the word "lemur" meaning "ghost" or "spirits of the dead"?

The description of lemurs as silver haired and purple eyed in AGoT caught my attention. (And then "little Valyrians" in TWoIaF later added to my suspicions.) I looked them up to see if there was anything about that might be relevant to ASoIaF. "Spirits of the dead" certainly qualifies. So, it was basically my inspiration for the idea.

[wolfmaid7]

Thank you very much for chiming in Ibbison i forgot about Jenny's song and you are right slightly implies that she might have lived and had a break from reality.

I i'm not buying these last two for a couple of reason.

1. Skinchanging or melding one spirit with another in the case of a Dragon is already being done......By Dany.

2. And i can't stress this enough,we have to consider again the "un uniqueness" of Targ blood in this scenario.Jon need not be "Targ" to ride a Dragon.Thanks to their generosity quite a few people have their blood.He just needs to have Valyrian blood in general and Targ blood via a parent (in this case the father).So it in itself is not a unique trait given the gene pool of most of the prospects to say he has to be definitvely Targ.

3.Skinchanging and Dragonbonding have already been mixed the moment the Blackwood blood entered the fray.

[Frey family reunion]

Ok, I left off with the idea that Jon Snow is the son of Howland Reed and the grandson of Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones.  While Duncan the Small may have abdicated his throne, my guess is he was still considered one of the two kings (along with his father, Aegon V) who were to be sacrificed to wake the dragon, and Rhaegar was meant to be the Prince that was Promised who was also slated to be sacrificed to be reborn as a dragon.  So now I'm going to skip ahead to the tower of joy and discuss the tower of joy's true purpose as Summerhall 2.0.

Quote

"And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best.  He would go there from time to time, with only his harp to keep him company...When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilight saga and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved"

 

Quote

It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory

.

Basically, Rhaegar named the place the tower of joy, not because it housed Lyanna, but because it was going to be the place where he attempted to recreate Summerhall, and give birth to The Dragon, waking the dragon with the death of two "kings", Howland Reed and his son Jon Snow, and the third sacrifice was to be Rhaegar's own son, Aegon.  

Lyanna was never at the tower of joy, but it was one of her promises that led Eddard and his six companions to the tower of joy to stop the Kingsguards from carrying out Rhaegar and Aerys last instruction which was the sacrifice of Jon Snow and Aegon.  This is why his dream links Lyanna's death bed promise and Ned's journey to the tower.

There has been a lot of good threads talking about the mythology surrounding the tower of joy.  From Lancelot's Joyous Gard, to the Mithraic mysteries of the sacrifice of the white bull, to the symbols of Persophene, and the cult of Bacchus.  But it also references another mythology which I haven't heard discussed very much, the legend of Theseus and the slaying of the Minotaur.

The Minotaur was the son of Europa (in some tales) and a white bull (in some tales Zeus in disguise).  It is also believed that he may have also been known as "Asterion" or the starry one, whose symbol was a star within the labyrinth.  With Gerold and Ser Arthur we get both symbols, the bull headed man, and the star.  The Minotaur was integrally related to the sacrifice of children, which makes me think that Arthur and Gerold's last orders were to carry out Rhaegar and perhaps Aerys plan to reenact Summerhall at the tower of joy, by sacrificing at least two children, Jon Snow, and Aegon.

Eddard plays the part of Theseus.  In the Minotaur myths, Theseus travels to Crete to stop the practice of Athens having to send seven children to King Minos to be sacrificed to the Minotaur.  In some versions of the tale Theseus travels to Crete as one of the seven sacrifices.  Likewise, I believe that Eddard travels to the tower of joy to stop the sacrifice of children, in this case at least two children, Aegon and Jon Snow.  And like Theseus' encounter with the Minotaur, Eddard's return home ends in someone jumping off a tower into the sea.  

In the tale of the Minotaur, Theseus had told his father that if he were successful and still alive, he would travel back to Athens with a white sail on his ship.  However, he forgets and travels back with a black sail.  When his father sees the black sailed ship he jumps from his tower into the sea.  And of course, Eddard leaves the tower of joy and travels to Starfell castle with Arthur's sword Dawn which reportedly causes Ashara to jump from her tower into the sea in grief. 

Then we have a myth within the story itself, that relates to the third member of the Kingsguard, Oswell Whent with the black bat sigil.  The legend surrounding Mad Danelle Lothston, also of House Harrenhal, was that she summoned a giant bat to kidnap children for her cauldron.  My guess is that Oswell Whent plays the part of the giant bat who kidnaps baby Jon Snow from Lyanna to bring to the tower of joy.  (A related sigil is that of House Blackmont showing a vulture carrying off a baby, and House Blackmont is coincidentally positioned near the tower of joy).

So in conclusion, Rhaegar and possibly Aerys are attempting to recreate Summerhall.  In doing so they are looking at the original bloodlines of those that were sacrificed and were slated to be sacrificed at Summerhall.  The son and grandson of Duncan the Small, Howland Reed and Jon Snow, and the son of Rhaegar (who believed himself to be the Prince that was Promised) Aegon Targaryen.  The last order given to the three Kingsguards was to follow through with their plans and perform the necessary sacrifices.  Eddard and company travel to the tower of joy to stop the killing of children, something that Eddard directly equates to the reign of Aerys Targaryen.

 

[Regular John Umber]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 Eddard and company travel to the tower of joy to stop the killing of children, something that Eddard directly equates to the reign of Aerys Targaryen.

 

 

 This is an important point to address - it's thrown out there by Ned in a casual manner, and doesn't get a lot of attention - but what children did Aerys kill, or intend to kill? I think you've hit close to it with your comments, nicely done.

[Frey family reunion]

On January 2, 2016 at 4:00 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Good to see you FFR.I haven't seen this part or i may have missed it.It might be in Ibbson's essay which i haven't read yet,but did he cover anything substantial that indicated that Jenny did survive? 

I'm more in favor of "the blood" aspect of these things vs the name ever since GRRM's quote about the heads of the Dragon need not be all Targs.I could see the point of it being blood vs name,from TPATQ we got introduced to how much the Targ royalty mingled their blood.

 

Hey Wolfmaid, sorry I've been so tardy in my responses, but my new position at work has kind of taken up all my time (plus I've been a bit discouraged by Martin's news that WOW is still a ways off).  

As for Jenny, there are two little tidbits that makes me think she survived.  The first is that despite Barristan's belief her best buddy, the Ghost of High Heart seems to have survived, so it's very possible that Jenny and TGOHH made it out together.  Plus this little tidbit from Jenny's song:

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High in the hall of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts...

This line can mean one of two things: it can refer to Oldstones and perhaps Jenny has a connection with the River Kings of Old, or it refers to Summerhall and the Kings who are gone are her husband, Duncan the Small, and her father in law Aegon V.  

As for the bloodlines of the Prince that was Promised I think GRRM is going to give us a bit of a curveball.  I do think that the Prince (or Princes/Princesses) will have a Targaryen bloodline and be a descendant of Aerys and Rhaella but in a very unexpected way.

[Frey family reunion]

19 hours ago, Regular John Umber said:

 

 This is an important point to address - it's thrown out there by Ned in a casual manner, and doesn't get a lot of attention - but what children did Aerys kill, or intend to kill? I think you've hit close to it with your comments, nicely done.

The prevelant thought seems to be that Rhaegar and Aerys were at cross purposes, but I'm not so sure.  I find it interesting that despite rumors that Aerys was only at Harrenhall because he thought Rhaegar was conspiring against him, it is Rhaegar that he sends to learn the identity of the Knight of the Laughing Tree.  And then in his time of need he apparently knows where Rhaegar is to summon him to lead his armies.  My guess is Rhaegar and Aerys may have been one mind in an attempt to recreate Summerhall, and if Aegon was slated to be one of the sacrifices I think both Rhaegar and Aerys were of one mind in this.

[purple-eyes]

6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Hey Wolfmaid, sorry I've been so tardy in my responses, but my new position at work has kind of taken up all my time (plus I've been a bit discouraged by Martin's news that WOW is still a ways off).  

As for Jenny, there are two little tidbits that makes me think she survived.  The first is that despite Barristan's belief her best buddy, the Ghost of High Heart seems to have survived, so it's very possible that Jenny and TGOHH made it out together.  Plus this little tidbit from Jenny's song:

This line can mean one of two things: it can refer to Oldstones and perhaps Jenny has a connection with the River Kings of Old, or it refers to Summerhall and the Kings who are gone are her husband, Duncan the Small, and her father in law Aegon V.  

As for the bloodlines of the Prince that was Promised I think GRRM is going to give us a bit of a curveball.  I do think that the Prince (or Princes/Princesses) will have a Targaryen bloodline and be a descendant of Aerys and Rhaella but in a very unexpected way.

Ah, interesting.

I always assume she died there. Otherwise she may be with Ghost of High heart.......

[Luna Longmoon]

Ok, sorry if this has already been answered but if Rhaegar is the father, who is Dang' s mother?   Second, if Howland is a Targ how did he become a Reed, Did the former Lord Reed Wed the pregnant  widow Jenny and claim her son as his or what?

 

[Regular John Umber]

5 hours ago, GOLDENSTORMWOLF said:

Ok, sorry if this has already been answered but if Rhaegar is the father, who is Dang' s mother?   Second, if Howland is a Targ how did he become a Reed, Did the former Lord Reed Wed the pregnant  widow Jenny and claim her son as his or what?

 

 

 There's sort of a precedent set in the Bael the Bard story - the Stark line was continued through the bastard son of a Stark daughter. It's not an exact match but it gives an idea of how that could happen - if Jenny was the only Reed daughter, then her son would be the new Lord Reed.

[Luna Longmoon]

Oh, I had always assumed that Jenny was one of the small folk but I don't think that is ever definitely stated so she could have been a Reed.   I mean' t to ask who Dany' s mother is if not Rhaella (auto correct  strikes again)?

 

[J. Stargaryen]

On 1/26/2016 at 10:27 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Basically, Rhaegar named the place the tower of joy, not because it housed Lyanna, but because it was going to be the place where he attempted to recreate Summerhall, and give birth to The Dragon, waking the dragon with the death of two "kings", Howland Reed and his son Jon Snow, and the third sacrifice was to be Rhaegar's own son, Aegon.  

Lyanna was never at the tower of joy, but it was one of her promises that led Eddard and his six companions to the tower of joy to stop the Kingsguards from carrying out Rhaegar and Aerys last instruction which was the sacrifice of Jon Snow and Aegon.  This is why his dream links Lyanna's death bed promise and Ned's journey to the tower.

Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. - ADwD, Jon I

So, your theory is based upon the idea that neither of the "two kings" needs to be an actual king? I mean, it's even specific in saying that the father needs to die first, so the son will be king when he, too, dies.

So, kings but not kings kings.

On 1/26/2016 at 1:42 AM, Regular John Umber said:

This is an important point to address - it's thrown out there by Ned in a casual manner, and doesn't get a lot of attention - but what children did Aerys kill, or intend to kill? I think you've hit close to it with your comments, nicely done.

"Whereas Daenerys is a fourteen-year-old girl.” Ned knew he was pushing this well past the point of wisdom, yet he could not keep silent. “Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?” - AGoT, Eddard VIII

Wouldn't your line of thinking presume that Robert, and many others for that matter, knew Lyanna was pregnant? Which seems like it would cause serious problems for the Jon Snow cover story.

I also have a hard time believing that Ned would have such great respect for Arthur Dayne if he was meant to murder a child, since child murder upsets Ned, to put it mildly.

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant. - ACoK, Bran III

[SFDanny]

On January 26, 2016 at 8:27 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Basically, Rhaegar named the place the tower of joy, not because it housed Lyanna, but because it was going to be the place where he attempted to recreate Summerhall, and give birth to The Dragon, waking the dragon with the death of two "kings", Howland Reed and his son Jon Snow, and the third sacrifice was to be Rhaegar's own son, Aegon.

You do realize Jon is not born yet, so there is no way Rhaegar can plan to sacrifice him as one of the "kings" needed in the ritual? Jon is born about the time of Rhaegar's death or a month after. Unless Rhaegar, who has left for King's Landing months before this event, can see into the future and know this child will be a son and not a daughter, it doesn't work. Hell, we don't even know if Rhaegar knows Lyanna is pregnant, with himself as the father or, in your scenario, Howland Reed, when he goes north after the Battle of the Bells to take command of the loyalist army. The unsupported assumptions here just continue to mount.

Also, we know from Martin that Howland fought with the rebel army throughout the rebellion, so how does Rhaegar plan to sacrifice Howland if he has no control of him?

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August 16, 2002

CONCERNING HOWLAND REED

I hope this finds you in good health and that the book is going well. I thought I'd take advantage of a lull in the normal busy day to ask you a few question about A Song Of Ice And Fire if I may.

You can ask, but don't count on answers. I like to keep my hand hidden till it's time to play my cards.

I'm curious about a few matters concerning Howland Reed (with a name like that I always think he should be a Blues performer) During the Robert's rebellion was Howland the only Crannogman to play a part? Did Howland fight by Ned's side throughout or was accompanying him to the Tower of Joy a one off?

No, he was part of the northern host through the war.

Traditionally would the Crannogmen have considered the Stark of Winterfell to be their Overlord or was Howland's aid because of his friendship with Ned?

Greywater is sworn to Winterfell.

Does Howland know who Jon Snow's mother is?

The Shadow knows.

And finally just how much does it cost to hire a Faceless Man? (I've got a supervisior who is really buging me)

More than you could afford, I fear.

Keep reading. (SSM 1221 bold emphasis added)

 

[Frey family reunion]

 

8 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. - ADwD, Jon I

So, your theory is based upon the idea that neither of the "two kings" needs to be an actual king? I mean, it's even specific in saying that the father needs to die first, so the son will be king when he, too, dies.

So, kings but not kings kings.

"Whereas Daenerys is a fourteen-year-old girl.” Ned knew he was pushing this well past the point of wisdom, yet he could not keep silent. “Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?” - AGoT, Eddard VIII

Wouldn't your line of thinking presume that Robert, and many others for that matter, knew Lyanna was pregnant? Which seems like it would cause serious problems for the Jon Snow cover story.

I also have a hard time believing that Ned would have such great respect for Arthur Dayne if he was meant to murder a child, since child murder upsets Ned, to put it mildly.

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant. - ACoK, Bran III

This goes back to Summerhall, and the events that the Targaryen family will not speak of.  If Aegon V reinstated Duncan's place in the line (perhaps for the purpose of the prophecy) and Jenny leaves pregnant with Duncan the Small, then Howland is literally our hidden King, and it is Jahaherys and Aerys that are the pretenders.  But of course the whole thing is a bit of a fiction, heck the Targaryen kingdom no longer even exists as the Iron Throne rightfully belongs to the Lannisters through good old fashioned trickery, so even if Jon is the son of Rhaegar he really isn't technically a king (and in that scenario Rhaegar did not die a king so we would have to look elsewhere for our two kings scenario as well).

 I think the actual importance is that Martin has created magical bloodlines within the various "kings" bloodlines.  If Jenny is indeed descended from the blood of First Kings then perhaps she supplies the missing ingredients to truly make Jon a recipient of all the major King bloodlines of Westeros.  (the possibilities are her association with Oldstones may mean she is descended from House Mudd, and of course if she is a Reed then she is descended from the Marsh Kings, and finally perhaps she is descended from the femal line of House Gardner hence the flowers in her hair an allusion to the flowery crowns of the Gardner Kings).  Combine those bloodlines with Duncan the Smalls (Targaryen, Arryn, line of Nymeria, Dane, Blackwood) and Lyanna (all of the Northern Kings that married into the Stark family) 

So we have our kings the Mud King, Howland Reed, and the Corn King Jon Snow.  BTW check out Hans Christian Anderson's the Mud King's daughter which also contains a highborn girl being kidnapped by the titular Mud King, resulting in a child who is raised in another household (sounds familiar?) And of course the Corn King is a sacrifice to bring about the end of winter.  If Jon is a "king" or has king's blood then I think the significance is as a sacrifice.

4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

You do realize Jon is not born yet, so there is no way Rhaegar can plan to sacrifice him as one of the "kings" needed in the ritual? Jon is born about the time of Rhaegar's death or a month after. Unless Rhaegar, who has left for King's Landing months before this event, can see into the future and know this child will be a son and not a daughter, it doesn't work. Hell, we don't even know if Rhaegar knows Lyanna is pregnant, with himself as the father or, in your scenario, Howland Reed, when he goes north after the Battle of the Bells to take command of the loyalist army. The unsupported assumptions here just continue to mount.

Also, we know from Martin that Howland fought with the rebel army throughout the rebellion, so how does Rhaegar plan to sacrifice Howland if he has no control of him?

 

Well seeing into the future is a trait not necessarily unheard of with the Targaryens, you'll have to wait until I get to Harrenhall, but basically I don't think Howland and Lyanna's pairing were a product of fate, but were engineered (perhaps by Rhaegar but more likely by Bloodraven using Rhaegar as a proxy).  And yes, Howland was the missing ingredient in Summerhall 2.0 which is why Jon was still alive when his rescue party arrived, and which is why Howland and Jon had to be kept seperate afterwards.

[Luna Longmoon]

Still trying to figure out who Dany' s mom is if not Rhaella?

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

 

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