Do you consider these characters villains?

[ravenous reader]

except maybe Ramsay. Hard to see much chance for redemption there. 

Why do you exempt Ramsay? And, if 'the land is one,' what do you mean by 'redemption'? Can one even speak of 'redemption' in a morally relativistic landscape?

[ravenous reader]

Well, I'm going to say that I don't believe in "morals". I believe no act is inherently good or bad, beyond what morals people inflict upon such acts. Everybody has their own particular brand of morality, and mostly they are similar to each other; "killing is absolutely wrong", compared to "killing is wrong, in most circumstances". My particular brand of morality is that things that better you are "good", things that lessen you are "bad". That is not to say that, for instance, Petyr Baelish is a good man, however (good men don't exist beyond outward perception); but I can certainly understand why he's doing the things he does (though perhaps not the reasons he does them). Conversely, I find that "honour" is a (once again, like morality, man made) construct that unnecessarily restricts people, lessening them in the process.

Anyway, the point is that, no, I don't believe any of these people are villains. All of these people have done things that both better and lessen themselves. They're all just people, doing what people do. Though I maintain that heroism and villainy are man made ideas, and that nobody can truly be a hero or a villain.

Except for Ramsay, maybe. Not sure whats going on with him. Why is he so one-dimensional? He's like the model of stereotypical evil. I don't really get it. Though perhaps there truly are people like that out there, who knows? It just seems like he belongs in a children's tale of the good knight going to slay the evil monster. You just have to imagine him as some kind of ogre, eating bones or something.

Not sure why Ramsay is being exempted from the trope-busted, morally relativistic universe inhabited by everyone else in meta-Westeros! You bring up some interesting points. For example, although considered a 'good' man, Ned, in doggedly seeking the 'honorable' outcome, i.e. seeking to 'better' others, invariably 'lessened' himself, even brought dishonor to himself and, bitterly, to the people closest to him. His well-meaning actions contributed towards a lot of destruction. The answer to Ramsay: I guess he is just following that less/more paradigm to the max-- just, he's discovered that 'lessening' others, by literally chopping bits off them, body and soul, is what most serves to better himself. How one feels about that, and how one chooses to respond, eventually as a community, is the realm of ethics.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Theon was 19 or 20 and more immature at that age than a 4 year younger Jon was. Also, there's people who have sex at 14, or at 12 even in extreme cases, does that mean they're past puberty? I don't think so. I also think that this depends from person to person tbh, there's people who are mature at a young age and there's people who aren't mature at like the age of 25.

yes, you do know that puberty is a biological thing that has nothing to do with maturity? And if you cum, you've hit puberty, nuts aren't working before that... Pretty straight forward, not at all grey. Regardless of age or being what you consider mature.

not sure what this has to do with being a villain though...

[John Doe]

 

Theon was old enough to have sex. That usually means least in puberty

I meant when he "went through a lot of crap". People don't magically become sane after turning 18.

[Wavey Sauce]

I meant when he "went through a lot of crap". People don't magically become sane after turning 18.

dont where you got that from but I never said anything close to that at all. I only compared the level of understanding of a child ages 10 and down to full grown adults. One being in his 60s

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

yes, you do know that puberty is a biological thing that has nothing to do with maturity? And if you cum, you've hit puberty, nuts aren't working before that... Pretty straight forward, not at all grey. Regardless of age or being what you consider mature.

not sure what this has to do with being a villain though...

Puberty is not a point in time where you are either before it or after it, like BC and AD, and for boys the process often starts before there are any of the more obvious physical indicators..  Sperm is actually produced in small quantities before puberty, but ejaculation is not likely to happen until around the age of 11.  Puberty for boys often continues well into the early 20s.

[Meera of Tarth]

USED TO BE VILLAINOUS BUT NOW ARE MORE GREY

-Theon Greyjoy potential reformed villain

-Jaime Lannister   potential reformed villain, less villain than Cersei though

WHO KNOWS WHAT WILL HAPPEN?

-Daenerys Targaryan    good-hearted but potential dictator

-Tyrion Lannister   pragmatic (potential villain?)

-Stannis Baratheon   not villain, but sometimes grey, difficult

Arya Stark          not a villain at all, but has some conflict areas to resolve. Don't think will become one

TYPICAL VILLAINS

Tywin Lannister villain
Cersei Lannister stupid villain, manipulating
Petyr Baelish intelligent villain, manipulating
Varys intelligent villain, manipulating
Victarion Greyjoy villain in his OWN way

 

 

WHY ARE THEY ON THIS LIST????

Aeron Greyjoy   what?????????

Bran Stark        the anti-villain