Do you consider these characters villains?

[BadWo1f]

How do we do this? If a character did more good then bad he's not a villain anymore? Or black sticks with him forever? Because all of these people did bad things. 

Jaime Lannister - Not a villain - I did consider him a bad guy at the start, he attempted child murder but is now trying to do good, redemption. 

Tywin Lannister - Villain - But only because of what he did to Tyrion, not because of military and political operations.

Cersei Lannister - Villain - Another hard one, but she did stuff, same as Tywin, not because of politics but because of some personal hate (Tyrion).

Tyrion Lannister - Not a villain - Did too little to be considered as one, majority of his actions can be explained and defended. 

Petyr Baelish - Not a villain - Political schemes, everyone dose it, even Ned Stark, that's why peoples definition of a villain will change from post to post.

Varys - Not a villain - Political schemes, can't rule without doing some bad stuff, as I said, if political schemes are the norm for a villain then we have LOTS of villains. Varys also did good.

Theon Greyjoy - Villain - Child murder. But it's getting harder and harder to consider him as one. 

Victarion Greyjoy - Not a villain - I know, maybe a bit controversial, but we can't look at him from our perspective, we all understand culture of Ironborn, slaves are...Not treated well in general.

Aeron Greyjoy - Not a villain - Just a fanatic for now.

Bran Stark - Not a villain - How did he get in this list?

Arya Stark - Not a villain - Again, how?

Stannis Baratheon - The man has best claim to the throne, sacrifices are kinda normal? Especially when sacrificing an enemy or prisoner etc.Killed a traitor, who was also his brother, but a traitor.

Dany - Not yet - Well, she did some bad stuff, but also good stuff, while I dislike her character I wouldn't consider her a villain (yet).

[ravenous reader]

Not really, my point is that Petyr knows he's doing bad things and he doesn't care. While Tywin has throughout his life developed an opinion that his family is the most important. I think that he sees the world as ruthless (which it is of course but that's no reason to be ruthless yourself) and has that attitude of "every man (in his case family) for himself". I think this is a bad but understandable attitude to have. Like, it goes against everything I stand for basically, but it's not like he's doing bad for the sake of liking it and while he doesn't care about the people that die horrible, he considers it nessacary for the sake of his stance on life.
you make good points about Petyr, and you're probably right. I'm not super invested in him and my romantic comment was mostly based on the whole thing where he fought Brandon, I always got the feeling that he believed that he loved Cat and that pure love always wins or some bullshit like that, and when he discovered it didn't, he changed his stance on life. But I should reread and rethink my stance probably because it appears I've missed some important points that you brought up.

That's a good distinction. Another way of putting it might be that while Tywin and Baelish are both ruthless and not too concerned with matters of conscience/remorse, Tywin is dispassionate and Baelish is sadistic. Baelish really enjoys hurting others, and gloating over their downfall. His 'ends,' towards which he engages his 'means' (and meanness!), are more complex than Tywin's. Tywin's ends are purely political, but Petyr's have an additional murky personal element. Was it really necessary to tell Lysa that he'd never loved her, as he was pushing her out the moondoor? He knew she had always felt insecure and beset by jealousy towards her sister, did he really have to rub it in, just then, that he'd always preferred Cat? Her fall was going to be inevitable; it wasn't necessary to say anything. But, Littlefinger wanted that to be her last thought on this earth, before she was extinguished. He wanted to revel in his cleverness, at how he'd duped her, and witness her despair. I can't imagine Tywin bothering with that, can you? It's really sick, if you believe, additionally, that Baelish knows that he might be Robert Arryn's biological father. As far as we know, Tywin was always loyal to Joanna, and acted to preserve his family (at least physically), even tolerating Tyrion, whom he had reason to believe might not be his. For this reason, his sadism and utter lack of loyalty, Baelish is the titan of villains, the arch-villain of the series. I believe he is the giant figure (ironically called 'little') looming over everything in all of those prophecies/foreshadowings. Even that foreshadowing about the giant with the black putrid emptiness within, while on the surface alluding to Ser Robert Strong, could equally refer to Littlefinger's 'black-hole' soul.

[Taenqyrhae]

That's a good distinction. Another way of putting it might be that while Tywin and Baelish are both ruthless and not too concerned with matters of conscience/remorse, Tywin is dispassionate and Baelish is sadistic. 

I think Tywin IS sadistic, and justifies his sadistic actions by saying they are necessary for the good of his family.  Take the Tysha incident - do you really think that a pragmatic, rational person would come to the logical decision that the best way to punish his son for marrying a commoner without permission would be to have the girl gang-raped and force his son to participate?  That this was an emotionless decision made because he weighed the options and felt this would be the most efficient way to teach a lesson to Tyrion?  

I think not.  I think he has an inner desire for sex outside of marriage that he is somewhat ashamed of, and he was furious with Tyrion, not only for shaming his family name by marrying a commoner, but making Tywin feel extra ashamed for his secret visits to prostitutes since his wife died.  He didn't want Tyrion to be superior to him in how he dealt with his needs in any way, and since so much of his anger was projected towards the girl who dishonored him (in his opinion), he sadistically makes her into a prostitute, not just to humiliate her and Tyrion, but as an expression of his hangups regarding prostitutes.

He could have dealt with it in so many other ways that would be less sadistic.  I could even see him having Tysha killed as the logical action of a pragmatic but non-sadistic lord, but what he did shows that Tywin is sadistic, and his sadism is strongly connected to his sexuality.

[ravenous reader]

I think Tywin IS sadistic, and justifies his sadistic actions by saying they are necessary for the good of his family.  Take the Tysha incident - do you really think that a pragmatic, rational person would come to the logical decision that the best way to punish his son for marrying a commoner without permission would be to have the girl gang-raped and force his son to participate?  That this was an emotionless decision made because he weighed the options and felt this would be the most efficient way to teach a lesson to Tyrion?  
I think not.  I think he has an inner desire for sex outside of marriage that he is somewhat ashamed of, and he was furious with Tyrion, not only for shaming his family name by marrying a commoner, but making Tywin feel extra ashamed for his secret visits to prostitutes since his wife died.  He didn't want Tyrion to be superior to him in how he dealt with his needs in any way, and since so much of his anger was projected towards the girl who dishonored him (in his opinion), he sadistically makes her into a prostitute, not just to humiliate her and Tyrion, but as an expression of his hangups regarding prostitutes.

He could have dealt with it in so many other ways that would be less sadistic.  I could even see him having Tysha killed as the logical action of a pragmatic but non-sadistic lord, but what he did shows that Tywin is sadistic, and his sadism is strongly connected to his sexuality.

That's a good analysis of Tywin's malignancy, combining Tywin's two greatest weaknesses, his sexuality and Tyrion. I'd forgotten about the Tysha incident! (come to think of it, there's a strong sadistic thread throughout; GRRM is quite a sadistic writer...) P.S. What is your opinion on the paternity of Tywin's children? I know there are a lot of hints to the contrary, but I like the idea of Tyrion as Tywin's only trueborn child. As highlighted in your example, Tywin's greatest enemy is himself (reflected in Tyrion)-- not Aerys. If Tyrion is anything other than a full-blooded Lannister lion, and rightful heir to Casterly Rock, it would detract from this great oedipal battle.

[OldGimletEye]

I think Tywin IS sadistic, and justifies his sadistic actions by saying they are necessary for the good of his family.  Take the Tysha incident - do you really think that a pragmatic, rational person would come to the logical decision that the best way to punish his son for marrying a commoner without permission would be to have the girl gang-raped and force his son to participate?  That this was an emotionless decision made because he weighed the options and felt this would be the most efficient way to teach a lesson to Tyrion?  
I think not.  I think he has an inner desire for sex outside of marriage that he is somewhat ashamed of, and he was furious with Tyrion, not only for shaming his family name by marrying a commoner, but making Tywin feel extra ashamed for his secret visits to prostitutes since his wife died.  He didn't want Tyrion to be superior to him in how he dealt with his needs in any way, and since so much of his anger was projected towards the girl who dishonored him (in his opinion), he sadistically makes her into a prostitute, not just to humiliate her and Tyrion, but as an expression of his hangups regarding prostitutes.

He could have dealt with it in so many other ways that would be less sadistic.  I could even see him having Tysha killed as the logical action of a pragmatic but non-sadistic lord, but what he did shows that Tywin is sadistic, and his sadism is strongly connected to his sexuality.

Bingo. A lot of Tywin's actions are not necessarily about "doing something unpleasent, but necessary", but derive from his pettiness and vindictiveness. See Tysha. See Masha Heddle.

[Taenqyrhae]

That's a good analysis of Tywin's malignancy, combining Tywin's two greatest weaknesses, his sexuality and Tyrion. I'd forgotten about the Tysha incident! (come to think of it, there's a strong sadistic thread throughout; GRRM is quite a sadistic writer...) P.S. What is your opinion on the paternity of Tywin's children? I know there are a lot of hints to the contrary, but I like the idea of Tyrion as Tywin's only trueborn child. As highlighted in your example, Tywin's greatest enemy is himself (reflected in Tyrion)-- not Aerys. If Tyrion is anything other than a full-blooded Lannister lion, and rightful heir to Casterly Rock, it would detract from this great oedipal battle.

I am not 100% convinced on either theory, but I lean more towards A+J=T than A+J=C+J, just because of the timing and the added info in the world book.

[Lord Wraith]

That's a good analysis of Tywin's malignancy, combining Tywin's two greatest weaknesses, his sexuality and Tyrion. I'd forgotten about the Tysha incident! (come to think of it, there's a strong sadistic thread throughout; GRRM is quite a sadistic writer...) P.S. What is your opinion on the paternity of Tywin's children? I know there are a lot of hints to the contrary, but I like the idea of Tyrion as Tywin's only trueborn child. As highlighted in your example, Tywin's greatest enemy is himself (reflected in Tyrion)-- not Aerys. If Tyrion is anything other than a full-blooded Lannister lion, and rightful heir to Casterly Rock, it would detract from this great oedipal battle.

Another good look Tywin's cruelty.

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2014/09/04/the-lions-fury-tywin-lannister-and-the-psychology-of-brutality/

[Abdallah]

There are a lot of Grey characters in asoiaf, it's one of the things I love about it. and I think it'd be interesting to know how many people consider certain (or all) of these grey characters villains. i've made a list with characters that I've seen debates about on the subject. I'm leaving out obvious characters (goodguys and badguys) but if you have a controversial opinion on one feel free to mention them and explain why. i'm also sure that i've missed some one this list so feel free to add anyone you think fits. So here we go, do you consider these characters villains and why? also, it would be handy to add your personal definition of what a villain is, because I've noticed that it depends from person to person, which values you hold highest and so on.

Jaime Lannister
Tywin Lannister
Tyrion Lannister
Cersei Lannister
Petyr Baelish
Varys
Theon Greyjoy
Victarion Greyjoy
Aeron Greyjoy
Bran Stark
Arya Stark
Stannis Baratheon
Daenerys Targaryan

note: please refrain from personal attacks, I know this is a subject that could get out of hand as people tend to take it personal when others say negativve things about their favs (myself included) but let's try to have a civil discussion about this.
 

Lets see people from the list i consider villians

Tywin, although he is just doing whats best for House Lannister

Cersei

Baelish

Varys

the rest are fine. 

[ultravioletgaia]

those are all people who have been through puberty....

alright. You're Trolling. Tywin and 'puberty' just wasn't in the same context.

[John Doe]

those are all people who have been through puberty....

Theon wasn't.

[Wavey Sauce]

Theon wasn't.

Theon was old enough to have sex. That usually means least in puberty

[INCBlackbird]

 

Theon was old enough to have sex. That usually means least in puberty

Theon was 19 or 20 and more immature at that age than a 4 year younger Jon was. Also, there's people who have sex at 14, or at 12 even in extreme cases, does that mean they're past puberty? I don't think so. I also think that this depends from person to person tbh, there's people who are mature at a young age and there's people who aren't mature at like the age of 25.

[Saving Stannis]

If I've drawn one thesis out of these 5 novels and their textual counterparts...it's that there are no heroes, and no villains. Martin's a literary trope-buster, and 'good vs evil' is the biggest trope of all

"If ice can burn, then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

[Saving Stannis]

except maybe Ramsay. Hard to see much chance for redemption there. 

[marsyao]

This is my list:

Cersei Lannister
Petyr Baelish
Varys
Aeron Greyjoy

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

Well, I'm going to say that I don't believe in "morals". I believe no act is inherently good or bad, beyond what morals people inflict upon such acts. Everybody has their own particular brand of morality, and mostly they are similar to each other; "killing is absolutely wrong", compared to "killing is wrong, in most circumstances". My particular brand of morality is that things that better you are "good", things that lessen you are "bad". That is not to say that, for instance, Petyr Baelish is a good man, however (good men don't exist beyond outward perception); but I can certainly understand why he's doing the things he does (though perhaps not the reasons he does them). Conversely, I find that "honour" is a (once again, like morality, man made) construct that unnecessarily restricts people, lessening them in the process.

Anyway, the point is that, no, I don't believe any of these people are villains. All of these people have done things that both better and lessen themselves. They're all just people, doing what people do. Though I maintain that heroism and villainy are man made ideas, and that nobody can truly be a hero or a villain.

Except for Ramsay, maybe. Not sure whats going on with him. Why is he so one-dimensional? He's like the model of stereotypical evil. I don't really get it. Though perhaps there truly are people like that out there, who knows? It just seems like he belongs in a children's tale of the good knight going to slay the evil monster. You just have to imagine him as some kind of ogre, eating bones or something.

[Wavey Sauce]

Theon was 19 or 20 and more immature at that age than a 4 year younger Jon was. Also, there's people who have sex at 14, or at 12 even in extreme cases, does that mean they're past puberty? I don't think so. I also think that this depends from person to person tbh, there's people who are mature at a young age and there's people who aren't mature at like the age of 25.

Immature or not he still was body and brain more mature then a child who hasent even started puberty.....

[Taenqyrhae]

Another good look Tywin's cruelty.

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2014/09/04/the-lions-fury-tywin-lannister-and-the-psychology-of-brutality/

What's crazy is that I accept enough "cultural context" that I would see Tywin as a gray character even if he did something I would see as evil as hell in my cultural context…if Tyrion's story was "And when father found out, he had Tysha put to the sword, beat me until I was black and blue, and threw me in the dungeon for a week" I'd say "Yes, that's pretty fucking brutal and evil, but he is a medieval lord who recognizes fully how dangerous what Tyrion did was to his legacy and wanted to make sure nobody found out and it never happened again".  He'd be dark gray, but I'd have no reason to think he was sadistic and not just entitled and pragmatic.

 

[ravenous reader]

Another good look Tywin's cruelty.

https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2014/09/04/the-lions-fury-tywin-lannister-and-the-psychology-of-brutality/

Thanks, he is more diabolical than I had thought-- up there with Baelish, just not as charming! Any good links to suggest re: Tywin and Tyrion's relationship?

[ravenous reader]

What's crazy is that I accept enough "cultural context" that I would see Tywin as a gray character even if he did something I would see as evil as hell in my cultural context…if Tyrion's story was "And when father found out, he had Tysha put to the sword, beat me until I was black and blue, and threw me in the dungeon for a week" I'd say "Yes, that's pretty fucking brutal and evil, but he is a medieval lord who recognizes fully how dangerous what Tyrion did was to his legacy and wanted to make sure nobody found out and it never happened again".  He'd be dark gray, but I'd have no reason to think he was sadistic and not just entitled and pragmatic.

 

Yes, if he gritted his teeth and grimly did the necessary, without deriving such satisfaction from the suffering of others...It's that secret, smug smile, that only Tyrion can pick up on, that gives it away. Also, he's similar to Baelish in not being able to let slights go without massive retribution. I just hadn't realized the personal vs. political extent of those slights.