Do you consider these characters villains?

[Ethenil]

This is aSoIaF, where one can be both villain and hero.  It's not an easy classification to do but here's my effort.

The Good Folks

1. Ned Stark
2. Barristan Selmy
3. Daenerys Targaryen
4. Sansa Stark
5. Brienne Tarth
6. Aemon
7. Ser Dunk

The In-Betweens, the Grays

1. Stannis Baratheon
2. Catelyn Stark
3. Lord Varys
4. Tyrion Lannister
5. Jorah Mormont
6. Jon Snow
7. Belwas

The Bad Folks

1. Petyr
2. Joffrey
3. Jaime
4. Cersei
5. Roose
6. Ramsay
7. Walder

Special Cases/Mitigating Circumstances

1. The Unsullied.  They've done bad things in killing pups and babies, but they were already brainwashed and dehumanized by that point that they had no free will left.  If anyone is beyond judgment, it's these guys as they are like children in some ways.
2. Arya.  Yes, she's traumatized.  I feel for the kid.  However, how do we know that some cold hearted killer like Bronn was not traumatized and buggered as a boy?  Yet, we don't excuse his actions.  I will consider Arya gray as long as she stops murdering people now.  Like, right now.  If she continues, she's blacker than black.  Pity about the insurance seller though. 

 

I mostly agree with you, although I'd place Jaime in the Special Case scenario, since redemption arcs count for something in my opinion. I'd also move Jon up because even if he has flaws he has the right intent all along. Where would you place Bran? I understand he may become some sort of Great Other minion one day, but until now he's been pretty good.

[Nevets]

Jaime Lannister - Reformed villain.  At the beginning he was villainous, although I attribute Bran more to panicked desperation than actual evil.  But I didn't like his killing of Ned's men or his overall attitude.  Has reformed recently so is no longer a villain.

Tywin Lannister - Villain.  Set the Riverlands on fire because his son was taken captive.  His pragmatic ends justify the means attitude isn't entirely bad, but he has a serious tendency to overreact, and that causes his actions to rise to the level of villainy.

Tyrion  -  Has done some bad acts, but overall, I think he is a pretty decent person.

Cersei - Villain.  She has committed one horrible act after another.  Blue bard, Falyse, etc.  As for the love of her kids, it is a possessory, controlling kind of love that is malignant in nature  I have to wonder how much of Joffrey's villainy was the result of her influence.  Fortunately, Tommen is resisting her.  A truly horrible person.  

Petyr Baelish. Worst villain on this list.  His manipulations are largely responsible for War of the 5 Kings.  Also his treatment of Jeyne Poole, his plotting SR's death, the list goes on...

Varys - ? Know nothing about him.  What I do know, like his treatment of his "little birds", fills me with worry.  Possibly villainous.

Theon - Formerly villainous.  Betrayed Robb by acting as a envoy, then stabbing him in the back by taking Winterfell. Killed two innocents so he wouldn't looks stupid.  Partially redeemed by suffering and his rescue of Jeyne Poole.

Victarion - Villain.

Aeron - Essentially harmless

Bran - Only bad act is warging of Hodor, and doesn't know better.

Arya - Worst act is murder of Dareon, or murder of Insurance Man.  While these acts bother me, they do not rise to the level of villainy.  Dareon betrayed his fellow black brothers and deserted, a capital offense, and Insurance Man was something she was ordered to do.  She also allowed herself to believe he had cheated customers.

Stannis - Not a villain at this point.  A self-righteous asshole, who gnaws on every wrong ever done him, but resists actual villainy, like burning innocents.  Could potentially become villainous.

Daenerys - Generally good but has a tendency to rashness and overreaction which leads to her making decisions that do harm, such as the crucifixion of 163 masters

Possible additions - I do not believe they are villainous, but others may disagree:

Sandor Clegane - Many readers consider him villainous.  With respect to Mycah, I think he let himself be convinced the boy was a criminal who assaulted Joffrey.  Otherwise, talks mean, but was decent to the Stark girls.  Overall grey.

Melisandre - If Stannis does become a villain, it will probably be because of her influence and requests..  So far, a mystery.

[Wavey Sauce]

Cersei's love for her kids gives her positive points, but she has descended down a path of crazy that there might be no coming back from. I think her ultimate tragedy would be totally losing her shit and killing Tommen herself like she was going to do in GoT's Blackwater. 

Baelish did have some hardships, but they were nothing compared to what the Stark kids have been through, and I don't see any of them using and disposing of someone who truly loved them like he did to Lysa. He thinks he loved Catelyn, but love and lust are two very, very different things. The idea of Catelyn, he wanted, but who knows how much he would have liked the real her. 

i cannot see Cersei trying to kill Tommen again unless their was a situation where the door was about to be busted in and he was going to be taken as a captive and become tortured raped and then a prolonged murder. A situation where death would be better then the oncoming situation. Which I cannot really think of any circumstances

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Villains from the list are Tywin, Victarion, and Baelish.  It's a short list.  You left out some appropriate names.

[Light a wight tonight]

Do you really think Petyr is out for vengeance because he's envious? I never got the impression that he had any kind of emotions about what he was doing beyond wanting power. But I'd be interested to hear your interpretation.
how exactly is Theon Privilged? I mean... yeah he's high class but so are most of the other characters and most of them didn't get beaten up by their brothers, made a captive at the age of 9, tortured by a maniac for 9 months...

By what kind of standard are you judging these characters? like what's your definition. Why does Arya specifically get a pass, when you look at it objectively of course. according to you she's done nothing wrong apparently, why is that? i'm not saying that you should think she's done things wrong but I'm just curious if you're judging everyone from an objective perspective. That's why I was asking for a definition, to see which parameters are important to everyone individually to judge all characters according to the same parameters without bias (or the least bias because it's of course impossible to not be biased at all)

Do you consider the fact that she's blood of the dragon an excuse for being overly cruel sometimes, or did you just mention that as an afterthought? just wondering.
 

Littlefinger is fostered with the Tullys, where he's exposed to how the upper crust really lives, in comparison to Schloss Baelish. Instant envy. He falls "in crush" with Cat, gets informed in no uncertain terms that he's not good enough for her. Gets royally miffed when Cat is affianced to Brandon Stark, to the extent of challenging him to fight for Cat's hand and is nearly killed. The humiliation continues to eat at him. As lord of that tiny fief he doesn't have the means to extract revenge so he sets out to gain enough wealth and power to accomplish his ends.

Theon may be a hostage but he's treated nearly as well as the Stark kids are. Pals around with Robb, takes sexual advantage of the miller's wife, looks down his nose at Jon. He may be a Greyjoy but he's given responsibilities in Robb's war. Then when he goes to Pyke he again takes advantage of a woman of the lower social orders (the captain's daughter), and attempt the same with his sister, whom he doesn't recognize but again considers a commoner. He's resentful of Balon giving him a lesser command than Asha got, even though he's inexperienced. 

Arya is written as a special character. She defends the weak, Mycah from Joff, Sam from the Braavosi bravoes, the baby named Weasel, among others. She avenges evil, as with Chiswick. She punishes Dareon (sp?) for abandoning Sam, Gilly, and Aemon. A few of her kills have been iffy, as the guard at Harrenhall, but most have been necessary. Sandor says that he killed his first man at age twelve, but Arya beats that by three years. How can you not love that? 

Dany being "Blood of the Dragon" is a bit facetious, but it's what has been drilled into her by Viserys and she thinks of herself that way. 

The original post calls for opinions, and those are often not 100% objective. 

[7-KG]

Whoever says Bran is a villain has got to be trolling.

[Magnar of Skagos]

Bran Stark - gray area - not a villain, but guilty of an evil act - slightly excused by his being a child.

Wait, what evil act is Bran guilty of?

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

It's all subjective not going to participate. 

[Bran the Shipper]

Jaime - Hero.  Yes he's done some dubious things but for the most part his heart seems to be in the right place.

Tywin - Villain.  He can be kind of confusing because he does villainous actions for peace as opposed to most villains I can think who act primarily for chaos.  Doesn't make him any less villainous though.

Tyrion - Villain.  I see people commenting about the good deed he's done, but I must have forgotten all of them.  His actions at best seem neutral in terms of morality and selfishly driven and at worst out right villainous, where he likes hurting others.

Cersei - Villain.  She does a lot of evil deeds in her pursuit of power.

Petyr - Villain.  Pretty similar to Cersei, in doing evil to gain power, he's just smarter about it.

Varys - Villain.  We don't know as much about him as Petyr but he is playing the game of thrones just as much.  I don't trust him when he says that he works for the good of the realm.  He seems to be after power, but he doesn't want to openly rule he wants to control the ruler, at least that is how I interpret his character.

Theon - Hero.  He's done some bad things but he regretted them even as he did them.  He is most guilty of being a weak willed idiot, but that doesn't make him evil.  Luckily he seems to have gained not only a backbone but a brain.  His thought process, to me, indicates that of a hero who makes mistakes.

Victarion - Villain.  Kills innocent people without any sense of remorse.  Terrible person, without any redeeming features.

Aeron - In Between. Can't say he seems too heroic, but I don't think he's done any bad deeds either.  The best case I can come up with to place him, would be that he serves the Drowned God who might be serving the Great Other who is behind the others and an enemy to life.  That is, if the red priests can be believed.

Bran - Hero.  His treatment of Hodor is the worst he has done, and while it is terrible and Bran knows it.  But, he generally seems to care about others.  Besides if he can forgive someone who caused him so much pain then the kid must have quite a lot of good in him.

Arya - In Between.  It really depends on where her arc leads her.  Thus far the times she has killed people is justifiable as self defense or executing the law.  But she could easily become a villain if she isn't careful.

Stannis - Villain.  He follows the law but he has no mercy.  The fact that he would kill his own brother makes me lean towards him being a villain. 

Daenerys - Hero.  Like Theon she does bad things but regrets them quickly.  In some sense she seems too good.  She is so disgusted by the evil she sees that she is willing to do whatever it takes to stamp it out.  At least it looks like she is learning that doing that will only make things worse, so hopefully she can control her fury in he future.

[INCBlackbird]

Littlefinger is fostered with the Tullys, where he's exposed to how the upper crust really lives, in comparison to Schloss Baelish. Instant envy. He falls "in crush" with Cat, gets informed in no uncertain terms that he's not good enough for her. Gets royally miffed when Cat is affianced to Brandon Stark, to the extent of challenging him to fight for Cat's hand and is nearly killed. The humiliation continues to eat at him. As lord of that tiny fief he doesn't have the means to extract revenge so he sets out to gain enough wealth and power to accomplish his ends.

Theon may be a hostage but he's treated nearly as well as the Stark kids are. Pals around with Robb, takes sexual advantage of the miller's wife, looks down his nose at Jon. He may be a Greyjoy but he's given responsibilities in Robb's war. Then when he goes to Pyke he again takes advantage of a woman of the lower social orders (the captain's daughter), and attempt the same with his sister, whom he doesn't recognize but again considers a commoner. He's resentful of Balon giving him a lesser command than Asha got, even though he's inexperienced. 

Arya is written as a special character. She defends the weak, Mycah from Joff, Sam from the Braavosi bravoes, the baby named Weasel, among others. She avenges evil, as with Chiswick. She punishes Dareon (sp?) for abandoning Sam, Gilly, and Aemon. A few of her kills have been iffy, as the guard at Harrenhall, but most have been necessary. Sandor says that he killed his first man at age twelve, but Arya beats that by three years. How can you not love that? 

Dany being "Blood of the Dragon" is a bit facetious, but it's what has been drilled into her by Viserys and she thinks of herself that way. 

The original post calls for opinions, and those are often not 100% objective. 

Yeah, I know this about littlefinger but I still don't really see why that means he's trying to take revenge. I always saw it more as him realizing that the world is unfair and using that to his advantage, understanding how people work and how he can manipulate them to get what he wants. Because he believes that that's the only way (and admitedly it probably is) to become really powerful, something he believes he deserves, on the simple merrit that he is very capable of manipulating people. The reason I don't think it's revenge is because generally when people take revenge, they're very emotional about it, littlefinger doesn't seem to be.

and being treated well means pretty much nothing if you ask me. That's the equivalent of saying that money makes you happy. Theon's physical needs are provided but he's been ripped away from his family and has to grow up without any parental love, something he desparetly searches for, that's a huge part of his arc. It's damaging to a child to grow up feeling unloved. I'd call that the oppesite of privilige. Theon and Jon don't get along in general because they have similar problems but have an oppesite personality, they're eachothers foils. Why do you say Theon took sexual advantage of the millers wife and the captain's daughter? As far as we know Theon specifically didn't go to the whores because women threw themselves at him. He's described as handsome and we can assume was good in bed because it's true that women threw themselves at him. We see it with the captains daughter especially, she does whatever he wants and begs to stay with him even though he treats her like shit. that's not taking sexual advantage at all. As far as we know the women he slept with were all perfectly willing.

I do like Arya a lot and I like her storyline but I don't think that makes her above criticism. I don't nessacarily blame her for having become an assassin, after everything that's happened. And I myself don't consider her a villain mind you (like I said in earlier posts the only characters on the list I consider villains are littlefinger and Cersei), but I do think that some of the people she killed didn't deserve it (just like the people Jaime, Theon and other characters that people do consideer villains didn't deserve it)

I don't think opinions can be 100% objective but they can be consistent. holding everyone to "your" same personal standards

[Darksnider05]

It's all subjective not going to participate. 

Not everything is subjective.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

 

Not everything is subjective.

True sir very true, but In this case it is. While I think Jamie isn't a villain, because he's trying, others wont some will agree. While I think Tywin is strait up evil others wont some will agree or be on the fence.

 

 

I'll play devils advocate. Everyone is the hero in their own story.

 

 

[Light a wight tonight]

 As far as we know Theon specifically didn't go to the whores because women threw themselves at him. He's described as handsome and we can assume was good in bed because it's true that women threw themselves at him. We see it with the captains daughter especially, she does whatever he wants and begs to stay with him even though he treats her like shit. that's not taking sexual advantage at all. As far as we know the women he slept with were all perfectly willing.

 

IMO that's a perfect example of taking advantage. The fact that they were willing just means it wasn't forcible rape. 

[INCBlackbird]

IMO that's a perfect example of taking advantage. The fact that they were willing just means it wasn't forcible rape. 

How is having sex with someone who is willing taking advantage exactly? They wanted to have sex with him, he wanted to have sex with them so they had sex. it's as simple as that, and there's nothing wrong with that... people have sex it's natural.

[Maid So Fair]

Jaime - former villain on the way towards redemption. He no longer acts as a villain in the story.

Tywin - villain. A great one.

Tyrion - grey but not a villain. Antihero of sorts. Hasn't one anything all that bad and he shows kindness on occasion as well.

Cersei - definitely a villain. Motivated entirely by selfish reasons. Commits murder an figure on a whim.

Theon - redeemed villain/he's loSt all the parts of his identity that made him one

Victarion - almost too dumb to be villain, but yes. I despise Victarion. Killing his own wife would be enough even if he never did any other stupi shit and he did plenty.

Aeron - gray, not really a villain. Hes just a supporting character however

LF - villain to the bone. Probably the most immoral person in Westeros.

 

Varys - undecided on him being a villain, time will tell. Definitely better than LF. Very gray at best.

 

Arya, Bran, Dany - hell no. Being occasionally misguided doesn't make iu a villain. These are the heroes. And I mean, Bran of all people? He hasn't done anything villainous at all. Dany makes mistakes but tries her best an she genuinely cares about her subjects unlike many other rulers in the story. Arya is a little girl in a terrible situation who hasn't yet lost her empathy or sense of justice. 

 

Stannis - villain. The guy murdered his own brother for political gain. He's been growing on me a little bit but only because Davos likes him and he's going against t the Boltons.

 

[Maid So Fair]

How is having sex with someone who is willing taking advantage exactly? They wanted to have sex with him, he wanted to have sex with them so they had sex. it's as simple as that, and there's nothing wrong with that... people have sex it's natural.

Kyra wasn't exactly willing.

There's also the imbalance of power - he's a noble and a future Lord and the women largely commoners. If a teacher sleeps with a willing student or a boss with a subordinate, are they taking advantage? Very grey area. I don't think it's necessarily him taking advantage, but saying there's nothing wrong with Theons treatment of women is going way too far. He acts like a dick to every women we see him with.

[Max of the Magic Friends]

There are a lot of Grey characters in asoiaf, it's one of the things I love about it. and I think it'd be interesting to know how many people consider certain (or all) of these grey characters villains. i've made a list with characters that I've seen debates about on the subject. I'm leaving out obvious characters (goodguys and badguys) but if you have a controversial opinion on one feel free to mention them and explain why. i'm also sure that i've missed some one this list so feel free to add anyone you think fits. So here we go, do you consider these characters villains and why? also, it would be handy to add your personal definition of what a villain is, because I've noticed that it depends from person to person, which values you hold highest and so on.

Jaime Lannister
Tywin Lannister
Tyrion Lannister
Cersei Lannister
Petyr Baelish
Varys
Theon Greyjoy
Victarion Greyjoy
Aeron Greyjoy
Bran Stark
Arya Stark
Stannis Baratheon
Daenerys Targaryan

note: please refrain from personal attacks, I know this is a subject that could get out of hand as people tend to take it personal when others say negativve things about their favs (myself included) but let's try to have a civil discussion about this.
 

It's a little hard to say for some of these, simply because we don't yet have the full picture of what they are trying to do or will do. I think it was Solon that said "count no man as successful until he is dead." The same, I think, can be applied to determining if someone is evil or not. Still, we can give it our best.

Jaime Lannister: he commits incest with his sister and passes their bastards off as the legitimate heirs, breaking his vows along the way - selfish actions that lead to countless deaths that might have been avoided if he cared about anyone other than himself and his sister. Then, he tries to murder a child to cover it up. However, his recent actions show a certain degree of remorse, and a motion towards being something better, despite still being on the wrong side. In short, a villain, but one that is improving rapidly.

Tywin Lannister: murders thousands of innocents, unleashes Gregor and Vargo Hoat, has a little girl gang-raped. The fact that people still debate whether Tywin is evil or not baffles me. Villain.

Tyrion Lannister: villain might be a little harsh, but he is definitely on his way down a dark path. He's always been devious and selfish, but with good qualities to balance them out. Now I worry that he is in a moral free-fall, without much chance of stopping.

Cersei Lannister:  a lying, murdering adulterous with a massive ego and zero empathy. She lashes out and kills for no reason at all, other than to feed her narcissistic delusions and lust for the suffering of others. Complete villain, with no redeeming qualities.

Petyr Baelish: probably the most evil person in the series. He lies to everyone, betrays everyone, murders anyone in his way, sells women into sexual slavery and never bats an eye, and all of it for no purpose but to benefit himself. He has no cause, creed, morals, or restraints, and his only goal is to destroy as much as possible in a pathetic temper tantrum because he could never get what he wanted. Absolutely a villain.

Varys: a little hard to say, since we aren't sure of exactly what he's doing yet. His methods suggest villain, though.

Theon Greyjoy: guilty of a lot of sins, but at the same time he is genuinely regretful of them, and his willingness to make up for his crimes means that he cannot be considered a full-blown villain anymore. He hasn't reformed yet, but he's trying and that counts for a lot.

Victarian Greyjoy: a villain, though an entertaining one. He's certainly a brutish thug, but his one-man rampage from the Iron Islands to Slaver's Bay is immensely fun to read. Still evil, but at least he's better than Euron.

Aeron Greyjoy: I'm a little confused as to why he is on this list, seeing that he's never done anything really wrong. Being a religious fanatic does not make you evil in any way - he might just prove to be a hero, if he can truly overthrow Euron.

Bran Stark: some of his actions - like possessing Hodor and eating human corpses as a wolf - are evil, but they are done out of ignorance. Lack of knowledge of a sin effectively absolves one of the guilt associated with it. Not a villain, might be a great hero if Bloodraven's intentions are good.

Arya Stark: does a lot of bad things, but I see her the same way one views a child soldier. She was forced into a situation she could not emotionally handle at an impressionable age, forced to do terrible things while lacking in moral role-models. Calling her a villain and putting her in the same category as Cersei and Littlefinger is to ignore the context.

Stannis Baratheon: he's not squeaky clean, but he is nothing close to a villain. He's on a fight for justice and the ultimate survival of all life, while battling against the vilest villains of the series. Not only that, but he really hasn't done anything truly evil either - the closest would be burning criminals alive, but that's one unpalatable offense that may or may not be a necessity in his quest to save mankind. Not a villain.

Daenerys Targaryen: she can be callous and quick to wrath, but ultimately she is trying to do the right thing while using the right means. A campaign to free the slaves doesn't earn her any black marks in my book. Not a villain.

[Zizoz]

I see villainy as a combination of evilness and having an antagonistic role in the story. Based on that, and my subjective judgment:

 

Jaime Lannister: villain for the first two books: pushes Bran out the window, attacks Ned, leads an army in the riverlands. From ASOS on, he becomes more sympathetic and comes less into conflict with the heroes of the story and more with the villains (Tywin, Cersei)
Tywin Lannister: villain: the whole Tysha episode; loosing Gregor and Amory on the Red Keep/the riverlands; forcing Tyrion and Sansa to marry; the Red Wedding -- in addition to just being the "enemy" general/Hand
Tyrion Lannister: can't decide: anti-villain maybe? He knowingly serves an unjust regime, but tries to do some good with his power.
Cersei Lannister: villain: unlike Jaime, she doesn't become sympathetic when she gets a POV, in the sense that I'm still rooting against her
Petyr Baelish: villain: backstabbed Ned; involved in Tyrion's downfall via the plot to murder Joffrey; forces Sansa to kiss him
Varys: probably villain; don't know enough to be 100% sure
Theon Greyjoy: villain in ACOK only: I suppose he was complicit in the taking of Moat Cailin and Ramsay's wedding in ADWD, but out of fear; I don't see him as responsible for that.
Victarion Greyjoy: villain: attacks the North and the Reach without any better justification than that he was ordered to
Aeron Greyjoy: villain: supports reaving; participates in raiding the North
Bran Stark: not a villain: if Hodor were the protagonist, Bran might be a villain, but he's not. We don't know what Bloodraven's plans are for him; I personally doubt he will become a villain, but even if so, it hasn't happened yet.
Arya Stark: not a villain: greyer than Bran, but not a villain for the same reason
Stannis Baratheon: not a villain: tends to be the enemy of the enemy of the protagonists; helping the Night's Watch was a heroic act
Daenerys Targaryen: not a villain: she's the protagonist of her story, and while she makes some bad decisions her heart's in the right place

[kimim]

I see villainy as a combination of evilness and having an antagonistic role in the story. Based on that, and my subjective judgment:

...

This is great, in that it's less subjective. If you assume that the heroes are the Starks (ice) and Dany (fire) then everything becomes easier. ita with all your choices. Tyrion would be the odd man out, in that it's hard to figure out where he will end up vs Starks or Targs.

[Wavey Sauce]

Wait, what evil act is Bran guilty of?

 

Some people say warging Hodor is wrong. i honestly dont get it at all either. Hodor cant even remember what he had for breakfeast 5 minutes after he eats. And Bran was only using him to explore deeper into the cave to find blood raven. Its not like he wargs him and then commits a bunch of rapes or something

 

 

Also to the guy who replied about me saying Theon is a dirt bag. Yes Theon is an asshole dirt bag. Reek is not