Do you consider these characters villains?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Maybe his sister was held hostage by crazy people? And would be forced into a terrible marriage.

His father legally agreed to that marriage.

I know marriage pacts are not Robb's sweet spot, but c'mon!

[The Lord of the Crossing]

His father legally agreed to that marriage.

I know marriage pacts are not Robb's sweet spot, but c'mon!

This is why Walder insisted on payment first with Roslin and Edmure.  Walder even then paid well and gave his best daughter.

[Wavey Sauce]

I like to keep things light and lively in most cases but I feel compelled to engage in this discussion in place of posting another Lothar survey.  Robb cannot make the decision to take the north from the seven kingdoms.  The king owns the lands and the Starks were just stewards and wardens of the land.  He's being a criminal to do something such as this.  Greatjon spoke first but Robb allowed it, allowed his crowning.  

I think Jon was doing ok until he learned of Arya's marriage.  He then promptly lost his mind (which, this is understandable if you even believe he's the grandson of King Aerys) at this point.  He took it upon himself to force Mance and the spearwives to attack the Boltons in their home for the purposes of taking back Arya.  This is why he's so often criticized and surely belonged on this list for consideration.

 

It was that or he could go to KL when he was called upon. And would have been taken Hostage as well. Or just not do anything and then his sisters are captives. and Sansa lives her whole life married to a sociopath. So yes he had very good reason to march. And he was just one of few examples. But for him it was all business in things that directly effected his family and his current life in a place he was raised in and always lived.

I am pretty damn sure Neds death effected Rob way way way worse then the death of Danys mother and father she never met

[Wavey Sauce]

His father legally agreed to that marriage.

I know marriage pacts are not Robb's sweet spot, but c'mon!

Before he realized how fucked up Joff was. and how evil that whole family was. King Bob needed him as his hand, and then wanted to join houses, Ned also trusted in the fact that if he was King Bobs son, that he would be raised right and would be a decent person, pretty much trusting in his best friend that he wouldnt put his best friend Neds daughter through hell

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Before he realized how fucked up Joff was. and how evil that whole family was. King Bob needed him as his hand, and then wanted to join houses, Ned also trusted in the fact that if he was King Bobs son, that he would be raised right and would be a decent person, pretty much trusting in his best friend that he wouldnt put his best friend Neds daughter through hell

Marriage agreed, at no point did Ned tell Robert or his new king Joffrey that it was off. Robb had no control over it, it is not for him to go back on his fathers legal word.

 

Did he not listen to any of Ned's teachings?

[Wavey Sauce]

Marriage agreed, at no point did Ned tell Robert or his new king Joffrey that it was off. Robb had no control over it, it is not for him to go back on his fathers legal word.

 

Did he not listen to any of Ned's teachings?

nobody knew how fucked up Joff was. and Ned was made a prisoner by Joff, so that alone was enough for Robb, and then Ned being executed was icing on the cake

[Batbob45]

nobody knew how fucked up Joff was. and Ned was made a prisoner by Joff, so that alone was enough for Robb, and then Ned being executed was icing on the cake

Robert might have know how mess up Joffrey was since he saw what  Joffrey did to that cat.What Joffrey did to that cat was not normal kid or even human behavior.

[Wavey Sauce]

Robert might have know how mess up Joffrey was since he saw what  Joffrey did to that cat.What Joffrey did to that cat was not normal kid or even human behavior.

Very true. He always knew he was a messed up dickhead. I think he just really wanted and needed Ned as hand of the king. And assumed that as long as he was king, Joff wouldnt have the balls to treat Sansa bad, and maybe he figured he would change or he could eventually raise him into a better man. Or maybe even thought some sex would make him normal lol. But yea mainly came down to him wanting Ned by his side

[Maid So Fair]

 

No not condeming her at all of any thought crime. The debate I was making was from the guy who said that dany is not self serving at all. I have no problem with what she is trying to do. Even though she only has about 1 actual reason for doing it.

 

But my other point was it is going to bring tons of war and death to Westeros. And she has NO plan, on how to make the country better. Or what its issues are, what it needs protection from, if anything can be improved, if anyone needs some serious help. Its just pretty much "Welp my ancestors were there, I dont remember it nor have any strong love ties to it, but I am bringing fire and blood with my dragons and my army because I want my families dynasty to live on there'

 

Anyway I think that once she hears about the others/wights attacking the wall. she will turn her forces that way, dragons included, and save the realm from an actual serious threat. She just doesn't know it or anything about it yet, she is pretty much gearing up for a messy blind war with no real or actual plan in place. Like where to attack first. Whom to ally with, who needs to go. etc. She will be looked at by every kingdom of every family for the most part as an intruder that is going to be bringing mass death and war, even worse during winter time most likely when it is already difficult enough

Fair enough and she definitely is self-serving on occasion. But that's still a very strange criticism - isn't every character self serving? Dany seems to get singled out for this (not necessarily by yourself, just a trend I notice on the forums) while the fact that other people, even those we would probably consider protagonists like Jon, Sansa, Arya etc also do selfish things isn't seen as important. Pretty much every single character of noble origin in the story believe they are entitled to their privileged status and the benefits that come with it.

 

The fact she has no plan is worrying, certainly, but I would still with old judgement until she makes one because at the moment w just don't know. For instance, as you say its not certain that she will bring tons of war and death to Westeros just yet. At the moment she at worst lacks foresight and planning, but has this actually caused any suffering to others? You could argue that it might have made the transition to slave free economy in Meereen less bloody and more effective, but then again it might not have made any difference.

 

[Jamie Lannister]

Jaime - No. He started out as a pretty straight villain, but his character has been muddied gloriously. Even if you consider the Lannister regime the villainous faction, Jaime has damaged and subverted it more than anyone else I can think of. He's responsible for a lot of good and also a lot of evil; he's torn between a ton of contradictions and obligations; he's in an odd point in the story where he's trying to bloodlessly end a war that he's partially responsible for starting, and defend the children of his enemy. I don't think "hero" or "villain" quite sums his character up.

Tywin - Yes. His actions are sometimes understandable (his reasoning behind the RW was solid, fight me) and he's a very pragmatic person, but he's never anything but an antagonistic force in the story.

Tyrion - No. I get that this is a big one for some people but even at his worst I wouldn't call him a villain, even if I've lost a lot of sympathy for the character.

Cersei - Yes. She's a thoroughly callous and detestable person driven entirely by ambition and envy and a very warped concept of maternal love, but incredibly entertaining to read about. Save for the Walk, I've never once found her the more sympathetic party in a conflict, almost all of which she herself instigated. A lot of the time, it doesn't really feel like there's a method to her cruelty.  

Littlefinger - Yes. He's... probably the best and most successful villain in the series; he's schemed and murdered his way to greater power and prestige in every novel so far, and the only threat to his power right now is a fourteen-year-old whose family he destroyed (and also wants to fuck).

Varys - Kinda sorta. Hard to say given we don't know how sincere his agenda is. 

Theon - No. As with Jaime, he's gone through far too much for me to box him in like that. At the current point in the story, even if one considers him irredeemable, he's absolutely not a villain or a malicious force.

Victarion - Yes. Sorta. He's ultimately rather directionless and is only really following orders, and his personal ambitions (get revenge on Euron, marry Dany?) aren't exactly evil, but what he does and how he does it put him in pretty firm villain territory for me.

Aeron - Not really. He's a zealous practitioner of a pretty evil religion, but he's too ineffectual for me to write him off as a villain just yet.

Bran - Bran being a villain is some sort of ironic meme that's taken off, yes? 

Arya - No. Her motives have narrowed to vengeance, and she's done a few unsavoury things over in Assassinland, but the subjects of her retribution are all far worse than she is. 

Stannis - No. People have defended him in far more verbose and knowledgeable ways than I can, but he measures up to my concept of an anti-hero pretty well; that is, an ultimately well-intentioned or righteous character who deviates from the path of heroism in order to reach the end of it. 

Dany - No. I'd like her to be, but she isn't. 

[The Commentator]

Robert might have know how mess up Joffrey was since he saw what  Joffrey did to that cat.What Joffrey did to that cat was not normal kid or even human behavior.

This is an interesting point.  Robert knew.  However, this is feudalism where the king inherits by right of birth.  Robert knowing Joffrey can be a cruel boy doesn't mean he would set him aside.  He could have because he's the king, but customs and traditions are strong.  Most people would go with tradition.

[Orphalesion]

Robert might have know how mess up Joffrey was since he saw what  Joffrey did to that cat.What Joffrey did to that cat was not normal kid or even human behavior.

I don't really think so. I don't think Robert noticed his children (or any other people for that matter) enough to consider that they might be messed up.

The idea of the Starks and Baratheons being united by merriage amused him, so he pushed that merriage on Ned, no matter the consequences for anybody involved.

[Shierak Qiya]

Twice now their alliance with House Baratheon damaged the Starks.  It's not a good match at all.  Rickard's plans to marry Lyanna to the Baratheons to bind the families was clearly still in Robert's mind when he proposed Sansa + Joffrey.  The Starks should stick to their own bannermen rather than marrying south.

[Orphalesion]

 Rickard's plans to marry Lyanna to the Baratheons to bind the families was clearly still in Robert's mind when he proposed Sansa + Joffrey

That's what I'm thinking as well, it was just an attempt by Robert to "reenact" his engagement to Lyanna, only this time with a happy ending (or so he planned) 

That's the only time Robert would notice he has children, when he has the opportunity to vicariously live through them, like a pushy stage parent, (which is also what Cersei does, actually, only with more involvement on her part).

If the opportunity with Jon Arryn's death hadn't arised Robert would have left it to Cersei to make a match for Joffrey (which would have been a Lannister cousin, probably)

[INCBlackbird]

One more idea that i would like to add to the discussion.  The slave masters and their overseers are not good people folks.  That city and all the free people in that city benefit from the slave trade.  That was the city's economy.  Even the farmers who farmed olives made their profits from slave labor even if they were not selling slaves themselves.  There were no victims, only volunteers and profiteers.

You can't generalize all people who were born in a slave trade simply based on that! I hope you know that just a few thousand years ago there was slavery ALL OVER THE WORLD. And there had been for pretty much as long as mankind existed, are you telling me that all those people were evil and worthy of being cruficied? Even if certain people who didn't have slaves were somehow benifiting from the system, what do you expect them to do? They don't have the power to change anything even if they were against it. And you can't expect people who grew up in a place where slavery is normal to be against it, just because we know it's evil doesn't mean they would. Imagine this: in a few thousend years everyone is a vegetarian because the meat industry is terrible! Everyone considers it immoral (because frankly it is) and they say that everyone who ate meat or weren't against other people eating meat were evil because even if they didn't torture the animals themselves they were indirectly responsible. Are those people right that the way animals are treated is immoral? yes, do they have the right to judge us for eating meat while we grew up in a society where this was normal? no. are we all evil for contributing to the way those animals are treated? I don't think so, we're not the ones doing the torturing, we don't approve of it at all, but there's very little we can do about it.

[John Doe]

Jaime Lannister
Tywin Lannister
Tyrion Lannister
Cersei Lannister
Petyr Baelish
Varys
Theon Greyjoy
Victarion Greyjoy
Aeron Greyjoy
Bran Stark
Arya Stark
Stannis Baratheon
Daenerys Targaryan

No, no, no, yes, yes, maybe, not anymore, no, no, maybe, yes, no, maybe.

[John Doe]

You can't generalize all people who were born in a slave trade simply based on that! I hope you know that just a few thousand years ago there was slavery ALL OVER THE WORLD. And there had been for pretty much as long as mankind existed, are you telling me that all those people were evil and worthy of being cruficied? Even if certain people who didn't have slaves were somehow benifiting from the system, what do you expect them to do? They don't have the power to change anything even if they were against it. And you can't expect people who grew up in a place where slavery is normal to be against it, just because we know it's evil doesn't mean they would. Imagine this: in a few thousend years everyone is a vegetarian because the meat industry is terrible! Everyone considers it immoral (because frankly it is) and they say that everyone who ate meat or weren't against other people eating meat were evil because even if they didn't torture the animals themselves they were indirectly responsible. Are those people right that the way animals are treated is immoral? yes, do they have the right to judge us for eating meat while we grew up in a society where this was normal? no. are we all evil for contributing to the way those animals are treated? I don't think so, we're not the ones doing the torturing, we don't approve of it at all, but there's very little we can do about it.

I agree, generalizing all slave owners is pretty dumb.

[Maya Stone]

First of all, why are Bran and Arya even on the list and why are people seriously considering them as villains?? Some people think Arya is evil for killing Dareon, but she was simply doing what she thought was right and her duty as a Stark; everyone knows that a deserter's sentence is death and even if it wasn't her right to pass the sentence, she still wasn't doing it for bad or evil reasons. Those same people consider Ned to be a saint, but I think Ned beheading Gared was worse than Arya killing Dareon because Gared was scared and tried to warn them of the Others, while Dareon was simply a prick who abandoned his brothers and duties for singing and whores. Everyone else she killed deserved it, as someone previously mentioned on the board, she could kill 100 Pollivers and I still wouldn't consider her a villain. And do people seriously forget all of her good qualities?? She's the most selfless character and she's willing to put her life on the line to save someone else. Considering Bran to be a villain is even more bizarre than Arya; he's not even 10 years old yet. And what has he even done wrong? Warging Hodor to save their lives and explore the cave? Holy shit he's definitely Ramsey II in the making!! Seriously, if you consider what both characters have been put through as kids, it's a shock that they really aren't murderous little beasts by now. 
TL,DR: Arya and Bran are heroes so far.

Now for the others on the list:
Jaime Lannister:  No. He's done some evil and terrible things, like pushing Bran and killing Jory and Ned's men, but he isn't a villain, just a prick. He's also done some very heroic acts, like saving Kings Landing and Brienne, and deep down he wants to be a true knight and do what's right.

Tywin Lannister: Yes. I admire him a lot and sure he ruled Westeros well as Hand of the King during Aery's reign, but he's done some of the most evil acts in the series. 

Tyrion Lannister: No. I know everyone has different opinions, but why do people seriously consider him a villain? I feel like people ignore all of Tyrion's good deeds and focus only on the two bad things he's done; sleeping with the sex slave and killing that singer. Now let's look at just some of the good things he's done: protecting Jon Snow at Castle Black and saving him from a punishment, making a saddle for Bran, saving Catelyn from the mountain clan, saving kings landing, slapping joffrey, protecting Sansa from Joffrey's abuse, being good to Sansa, saving Jorah from the slaves, saving young griff, protecting Penny, etc.. But nope, all that and he's still a selfish monster

Cersei Lannister: Yes. Lacks empathy, remorse, guilt, etc. She has no redeeming quality, her only good quality is her motherhood and even that is highly flawed. She abuses her kids without realizing (like when she threatens Tommen that his friend will be beaten if he doesn't do as she says), she cares more about herself than her kids, and she helped in making Joffrey become a monster.

Petyr Baelish: Yes. He started the whole war of the 5 kings and all for selfish reasons. He's lead to the deaths of many people that had trusted him (Jon Arryn, Lysa, Ned), and to the deaths of wayy too many people. What he's done to Jeyne Poole is enough to consider him evil

Varys: idk. He's very mysterious and we still don't know his intentions and plans exactly to tell whether he's the hero or villain, but he's still done some questionable acts. 

Theon Greyjoy: No but he was close. He was an asshole and has done terrible things, but I blame it on what he's been through and his father. Killing the two kids is definitely a villainous act, but he has suffered enough for it and at least he feels remorse. 

Victarion: Not really so far. He's just too dumb and all he does is out of his ignorance and due to his iron born beliefs and traditions. 

Aeron: No. He's just a religious fanatic and so far his only crime is being very boring to read. 

Stannis: No. He's done bad things because he believes that the end justifies the means, and he believes the end and his main goal is to save the world. 

Daenerys: No. She's done some of the most heroic acts, and all her bad deeds were for justice even if they're questionable. 

 

[SeanF]

There are a lot of Grey characters in asoiaf, it's one of the things I love about it. and I think it'd be interesting to know how many people consider certain (or all) of these grey characters villains. i've made a list with characters that I've seen debates about on the subject. I'm leaving out obvious characters (goodguys and badguys) but if you have a controversial opinion on one feel free to mention them and explain why. i'm also sure that i've missed some one this list so feel free to add anyone you think fits. So here we go, do you consider these characters villains and why? also, it would be handy to add your personal definition of what a villain is, because I've noticed that it depends from person to person, which values you hold highest and so on.

Jaime Lannister

Tywin Lannister

Tyrion Lannister

Cersei Lannister

Petyr Baelish

Varys

Theon Greyjoy

Victarion Greyjoy

Aeron Greyjoy

Bran Stark

Arya Stark

Stannis Baratheon

Daenerys Targaryan

note: please refrain from personal attacks, I know this is a subject that could get out of hand as people tend to take it personal when others say negativve things about their favs (myself included) but let's try to have a civil discussion about this.

I think that Petyr Baelish, Tywin Lannister, Cersei, and Victarion are all at the villainous end of the spectrum. As to the rest, it's harder to say.

Part of the problem is that in this world, even the nicest people have to do morally dubious things in order to survive. And, as Martin puts it, people are complex. The same person can be a hero on Monday and a villain on Tuesday.

Take a load of real life examples from 14th to 16th century history. Were people like Queen Isabella, Philip the Fair, Roger Mortimer, Henry Bolingbroke, Edward IV, Caterina Sforza, Sigismondo Malatesta, Gian Galeazzo Visconti, Gaston Phoebus, Jean de la Valette, Mehmet the Conqueror, Suleiman the Magnificent heroes or villains? Both, really.

And, some stories are not finished. Will Arya become a dead-eyed assassin for hire, or will she turn away from that path? Will Dany save the world from the Others, or will she slaughter thousands of civilians to take the Iron Throne? Will Tyrion rule decently, or resort to any measure to gain Casterly Rock?

[INCBlackbird]

First of all, why are Bran and Arya even on the list and why are people seriously considering them as villains?? Some people think Arya is evil for killing Dareon, but she was simply doing what she thought was right and her duty as a Stark; everyone knows that a deserter's sentence is death and even if it wasn't her right to pass the sentence, she still wasn't doing it for bad or evil reasons. Those same people consider Ned to be a saint, but I think Ned beheading Gared was worse than Arya killing Dareon because Gared was scared and tried to warn them of the Others, while Dareon was simply a prick who abandoned his brothers and duties for singing and whores. Everyone else she killed deserved it, as someone previously mentioned on the board, she could kill 100 Pollivers and I still wouldn't consider her a villain. And do people seriously forget all of her good qualities?? She's the most selfless character and she's willing to put her life on the line to save someone else. Considering Bran to be a villain is even more bizarre than Arya; he's not even 10 years old yet. And what has he even done wrong? Warging Hodor to save their lives and explore the cave? Holy shit he's definitely Ramsey II in the making!! Seriously, if you consider what both characters have been put through as kids, it's a shock that they really aren't murderous little beasts by now. 
TL,DR: Arya and Bran are heroes so far.

I agree with you pretty much, I just wanted to make it clear that the list I created weren't my personal beliefs of who a villain is (in fact I only consider two of them villains myself) they were mainly the first names that I could think off that I've seen controversy about when it comes to people saying they are or aren't villains. I didn't iclude characters like Ramsay because it's pretty obvious that he's a villain, only the ones that certain people disagree about. So that's why Arya and Bran are on the list, I've seen several people say they're getting dark and some that they're villains, and while I don't agree i tried to be objective when creating the list.