Latecomer to Breaking Bad - just binged watched the entire series..my thoughts..

[Liffguard]

I agree with all the Walt hate. I don't get why so many people like Mike. Is it okay to be a murderous sociopath if you have a grouchy, folksy old-guy charm whilst doing it?

[Werthead]

I agree with all the Walt hate. I don't get why so many people like Mike. Is it okay to be a murderous sociopath if you have a grouchy, folksy old-guy charm whilst doing it?

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but did Mike ever kill a completely innocent civilian in the show? I'm struggling to remember, whilst Walter certainly did (albeit not always on purpose).

[Guess who's back]

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but did Mike ever kill a completely innocent civilian in the show? I'm struggling to remember, whilst Walter certainly did (albeit not always on purpose).

Walt didn't kill a completely innocent civilian either as far as I can remember.

[briantw]

Walt didn't kill a completely innocent civilian either as far as I can remember.

Depends on how you view that plane crash that he effectively caused.  Hank's death is pretty much on him too.

[DanteGabriel]

Depends on how you view that plane crash that he effectively caused.

Walt was a scumbag and a conniving mastermind, but even he didn't know that letting Jesse's girlfriend OD was going to cause her air traffic controller dad to spaz out and let some planes collide.

[briantw]

Walt was a scumbag and a conniving mastermind, but even he didn't know that letting Jesse's girlfriend OD was going to cause her air traffic controller dad to spaz out and let some planes collide.

True, although letting her OD in the first place was a pretty horrific thing to do.

[Guess who's back]

True, although letting her OD in the first place was a pretty horrific thing to do.

But if he had saved her, Jesse and Jane(?) would be destined to become like that junkie couple or OD later. In a way that was a favor for Jesse. 

[Howdyphillip]

 

weird DP

 

 

[Howdyphillip]

But if he had saved her, Jesse and Jane(?) would be destined to become like that junkie couple or OD later. In a way that was a favor for Jesse. 

Really? Are you kidding me? You actually see the world this way? 

[Werthead]

Walt didn't kill a completely innocent civilian either as far as I can remember.

Jane? He didn't set out to murder her, but after he accidentally caused her death he deliberately didn't do anything to save her.

Gale was involved in the criminal enterprise, but he certainly didn't deserve to die. He was basically killed solely to save Walter's own skin. And whilst he wasn't an innocent, Mike's death was completely unnecessary, as Walter realised himself whilst Mike lay dying.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 

Yeah, and really worse than killing innocent civilians, his actions directly screwed over people he loved. His relationship with his wife and son, his in-laws, Jesse, pretty much everyone he did business with, etc, etc. Walt eventually tainted everything he touched. I think the Gale murder was especially heinous in that he pretty much forced Jesse to commit it. Walt manipulation at its' finest. Granted, it saved both of their lives for a time, but still. Pretty much damned Jesse from that point forward. 

[First of My Name]

I think it was a great show, but definitely not the best show evaaah (or even of the last decade). It's a little too narrowly focused on a very small cast and after a while it drains the story possibilities. The adventures with Gus went on for probably half a season too long, Jessie's character arc kind of exhausted itself a while before the end and the last villains being Neo-Nazi white supremacists felt rather bizarre and out of left field, especially as they were given exactly zero development, character or personality compared to Gus or the twins or Tuco or Krazy-8.

It's still great, of course. The actors are all excellent, the dialogue is tremendous and the gradually darkening atmosphere of the show was done well. I don't rate Walter's character arc though. He was a total dickhead in Episode 1 and got a fair bit worse but not dramatically. He just gained in confidence. I think the show actually failed in Vince Gilligan's suggestion that if Walter goes from Mr. Chips to Scarface, he more goes from a nasty, arrogant and manipulative middle-manager to Scarface which is a lot less of a stretch.

Having just finished a rewatch of The Wire, I have to say that that show's place in the pantheon as Best Show Evaaah was not really in any danger from Breaking Bad (the two shows being rather different though). I'd probably also still rate Rome, and the first half of BSG as being better. Actually, Fargo S1 as well, in which Martin Freeman basically does Walter White's complete morality arc in the first episode alone and does so brilliantly.

That's an excellent point. Breaking Bad is unusual in that it follows through on the logical consequences of its narrative and does not pull any punches at all. In that sense it is better than BSG, which started wimping out on its premise before the final season even started and ended in a manner completely tonally detached from where it started. The only other shows which follow through in the way BB does are probably The Wire, Deadwood and Blake's 7.

Perfectly sums the things I didn't like about BB. I really didn't like Jack and his thugs as villains, they were very clichéd. Jesse's arc kind of runs in circles, and the pacing in S3/4A is flawed.

I also agree about the pros though, and about BSG. I also really need to watch The Wire.

[Iskaral Pust]

I have a problem with judging Walt because the character was created to be a megalomania fantasy about seizing control and power after a lifetime as an emasculated beta. The cancer was the tipping point but that foundation was set in his relationship with Skylar, his missed start-up fortune, his career as a teacher, his humiliation at the car wash, his disabled son who idolized Hank, and the casual put-downs from Hank. The longer the series went the worse the character had to do to up the ante.

The real question might be how many of us would fall like Walter if we had an excuse that made us feel like our interests trumped anyone else? He didn't change as a person but circumstances removed that crucial self-regulation.

Hank was a meathead and a casual bully and not really a hero, except that an honest cop toiling away despite personal risk is heroic. What should be explored further is whether it's still heroic if that career is chosen from a desire to be or seem a hero?

Mike was likable, unlike Walt, but still a bad guy. Gus was a great villain and, similar to Mike, impersonal in his professionalism. Jesse was bad too but sympathetic for his cruel, callous use by Walter. His protectiveness toward Brock was laudable but also slightly hypocritical -- it's easy to want to protect a young kid but what about the destruction of himself, his family and countless meth-heads?

[briantw]

Jane? He didn't set out to murder her, but after he accidentally caused her death he deliberately didn't do anything to save her.

I wouldn't exactly call Jane innocent, though.  Wasn't she blackmailing Walt at the time?

[Guess who's back]

Really? Are you kidding me? You actually see the world this way? 

I do love Heisenberg. I'm biased. 

[RumHam]

 I'm curious having finished Breaking Bad do you plan to watch Better Call Saul? 

The only other shows which follow through in the way BB does are probably The Wire, Deadwood and Blake's 7.

I know I can't be the only one who just googled Blake's 7. Doesn't seem to be on any of the streaming services though.

 

[Aemon Stark]

True, although letting her OD in the first place was a pretty horrific thing to do.

To be clear, Jane had already ODed. She threw up and aspirated because Walt didn't turn her back on her side (much less call 911). If he hadn't been there, she might have still died, but his monstrous act was recognizing that she might soon die and doing absolutely nothing about it - and for his own personal interest in "getting Jesse back". 

[Mark Antony]

If you watch the scene again Walt trying to wake Jesse up actually causes Jane to shift to being on her back so if Walt wasn't there Jane would be alive actually..^

[Werthead]

I know I can't be the only one who just googled Blake's 7. Doesn't seem to be on any of the streaming services though.

Watching B7 today is very, very rough going. The production values are astonishingly awful but the acting (mostly) and the viciously amoral storyline are all still pretty damn good. And the ending is horrendous, far darker than almost any other show I've seen (including BB).

To be clear, Jane had already ODed. She threw up and aspirated because Walt didn't turn her back on her side (much less call 911).

Walter does push her on her side by accident, which cases her to start choking. It's quite possible that would have happened anyway if he'd not been there, but in that moment he did do it and failed to do anything to resolve the situation.

And yeah, Jane was blackmailing Walter but that's after she clocked how dangerous and amoral he was in the first place.

[Criston of House Shapper]

 When I first read the description for what this show is about in one sentence I kind of thought "What a load of crap". And then I watched the entire series in a couple of weeks, and I've just finished watching it all the way through a second time. At this point I can't think of a better show, though I haven't seen the ones mentioned in this thread.

I have to agree that season five seems kind of detached from the rest of the show, I don't really care about Lydia/Todd/Jack, all the other main characters were introduced in the first two seasons and we actually got to know them. Todd was just kind of an emotionless creep, an evil guy who does evil things because he is evil.

By the end, I found I had grown deeply attached to Hank. I was utterly devestated by his death. Walt once said to Marie that he is not half the man Hank is. Walt of course didn't really mean it, and was just saying it to manipulate Marie at the time. But the irony is that is the real honest truth.

I think this thought sort of shows an anti-Walt-bias, I think when he says stuff like that, he really means it. Throughout the show Walt does show signs of guilt, because he knows in the back of his mind that what he's doing is evil, but at the same time he has to keep doing them because he likes it. Kind of like drugs.

Walt at least likes Hank and has some respect for him, and when he tells Marie that Hank is twice the man he is, what he really means, is, that he isn't half the man that Hank is, because he knows he's a scumbag. When Gus tells him in the desert that he is going to kill Hank, and Walt's entire family if he interferes, he could just say "Well, I guess that's it for Hank..." if he was as evil as you seem to think. Instead he breaks down crying because he doesn't know how to get out of this situation. And in the end it is Hank's death that makes him realize that he went too far.

Walt kills a lot of people throughout the show, but almost all of those murders were due to self-preservation, one of the most basic human insticts. When he (rightfully) thinks Gus is going to have him killed, he orders Gale's death. He has everyone in the prisons killed because he doesn't want to go there himself. He poisons Brock to save his own skin and his family. Did he go overboard? Yes. But the point is that Walt's actions aren't inhuman, they are just very evil things that humans sometimes do.

There are some exceptions of course, Jane being the main one. First off, let's stop it with the "Walt caused the plane crash"-bs, that's just the butterfly effect, I'm sure all of us have caused countless deadly accidents in our lives one way or another. The same thing goes for Walt causing Jane to roll on her back, which I only noticed on my second viewing. His first instinct when Jane starts choking is to go save her, which is a human reaction, but then he starts thinking about the consequences. She just blackmailed him, and he just watched Jesse decend into a serious Heroine addiction because of her, and he really cares about Jesse, so he lets her die, which is extremely cruel on his part. But it's not because he's the devil, it's because he cares about Jesse and doesn't like the influence that Jane has on him, and he has the opportunity to get rid of a complication.

He does manipulate Jesse a lot, but he likes him, you can see some weird father-son-relationship developing throughout the show. He didn't have to get him into Gus' operation (and probably shouldn't have). He didn't have to kill those drug dealers and destroy said operation. He didn't really need Jesse after season 2, he could've just cut him loose the moment he met Gus. Jesse is one of his blind spots, and he's part of why he lost everything, with Hank being the other one. Walt and Jesse both get plenty of opportunities to screw each other over, but ultimately neither of them does it, until Jesse finds out about the Brock-thing.

 

In conclusion, I don't think you can really root for Walt to ultimately succeed, but he is a very complex character who is extremely interesting to watch.