What if Lyanna was kept publicly in DS

[WSmith84]

No matter what Rhaegar would have done it would have been a bad situation--if he actually kidnapped her or not.

The Starks wouldn't have been happy as they've just been "put in their place" by the Targaryens. The only way to make amends is if Lyanna is married as a second wife & Elia and her offspring are set aside as a worst case scenario for House Targaryen. Best scenario is that Lyanna's children come in succession after Elia's.

The Faith is likely very angry at this, and the more fundamentalist among them start grumbling--especially since Lyanna is from a non-Faith of the Seven practicing family.

Slander and snubs would be an everyday occurence for Lyanna, and if she speaks out of turn she'll likely be called "The Great Whore" or some other slut shaming term while Aerys lives if she goes anywhere off of Dragonstone. Rhaegar's reputation will likely be ruined as people would expect there to be problems (remembering Viserys I's reign) and expect for there to be factions that form within the court.

If Lyanna ran away without her father's approval, her family could very well choose to shun and not support her to save face as a worst case scenario. This likely splits the Starks apart as I see Ned and Benjen splitting with their father over the issue, which in turn will cause problems for the North later if either Ned or Benjen marry or Brandon's marriage with Catelyn proves to be less than happy or Brandon messes up as Lord Paramount in the future. I can easily see Benjen going south and perhaps taking a White Cloak instead of a Black Cloak to be his sister's protector in the south. Ned likely tries to bridge the gap between Lyanna & Benjen and his father & Brandon and is torn by the issue. Brandon, being Brandon, I expect to cheat on Catelyn and eventually get into a serious scandal that splits the Northerners and causes internal rifts. Ned might not be the one to take advantage of such a rift, but if Benjen didn't go south--and he's sore over how father and Brandon treated Lya and then further how Brandon treated Catelyn and her children. There could be conflict in the North. But that's the worst case scenario.

Best case scenario is that Rickard is angry with Lyanna and keeps his distance until Lyanna has a few grandchildren for him, over which he publicly reconciles but likely is curmudgeon-like over in private. This cool distance between Father and daughter causes some friction. Benjen goes to Dragonstone to be his sister's sworn shield, Ned acts as go-between all parties and trying to heal the rift as best he can.

Robert, as another poster has said, is a permanent enemy and rival of Rhaegar. If Aerys wants to disinherit Rhaegar (and this is an ample opportunity to do so), Robert would support him. If Tywin wants to eliminate the Targaryens in vengeance for Jaime's induction, Robert would support him. At this point, anything that will screw over the Targaryens and more specifically Rhaegar, Robert will support 100%. This is a bad recipe for the future. If Lyanna and her family fall out, Robert will likely throw all his anger at Lyanna herself and likely try and support Aerys, then Viserys, and finally Elia and her son Aegon in terms of likely factions. If the Starks put a public face of supporting Lyanna, Robert likely plays politics to screw Rickard by ruining his Southron ambitions one by one, perhaps mentioning to Hoster Tully what Brandon's favorite activities are. Robert's a wild canon here. His pride has been wounded and he's unlikely to think rationally--this is quite dangerous and can turn volatile rather easily at the slightest provocation.

The Tyrells, depending upon if Oberyn still reignites the old rivalry between the two houses or not, might prove to be a faction to support Lyanna simply to spite Dorne. Their support however would come with a cost and a lot of scheming to ensure that Margaery ends up Queen and Lyanna's son ends up on the throne.

The Tullys depend upon whether or not their betrothal with the Starks stands or not. If Robert finds a way to break the betrothal, they could support Elia and Aegon as a move against the Starks. If they remain staunch allies with the Starks, then whatever Rickard does, the Tullys will follow forth with--until Brandon starts cheating on Catelyn.

The Martells, while they're from Dorne, know that it's one thing to have a paramour (there are ways and channels to go about doing that without "kidnapping" or "running away" with said girl)--but to have a second wife, especially one who is from another Lord Paramount's family threatens the position of Elia, it is going to be taken as a huge insult to Dorne and the Martell family, as well as a threat to Aegon and Rhaenys. At the very least, Doran insists upon Aegon and Rhaenys being fostered in Sunspear, if not Elia living there in permanence. The Martells at this point have to aim for securing Aegon's right to succession.

The Lannisters are going to be hurt twice over. Not only did Aerys snub them, but if Rhaegar was going to take a second wife, why the heck did he choose a barbaric Northern girl? On Cersei's behalf of being snubbed by the son, expect Tywin to work against Rhaegar as well as Aerys, unless of course Rhaegar wants a third wife... and then it's going to be

Jon Arryn likely tries to build a coalition of peace and compromise. He and Ned likely are the only ones interested in not seeing problems get any worse than they already are. His success likely ends with his death, at which point we have Elbert Arryn and whoever he marries in this alternate time line to position the Vale--and if Elbert died, then there's Denys Arryn and his wife and son after him (unless they still die of the pox--unlikely with The Butterfly Effect in place).

Everyone knows the story of the Dance of the Dragons and the dangers the scions of two different Queens to one King can bring. Whether it is now or 20 to 40 years from now, Westeros will see a War of Succession with Rhaegar's death all of his own making. And Rhaegar the golden prince will be cursed for bringing such a war of succession to Westeros just as the Second Long Night occurs.

Nicely put. I expect that Ned and Robert's friendship would likely be ruined as well. If Rhaegar's plan was to disrupt the alliances that the North was building, his plan was great. Except, of course, for the fact that he was the one to take the blame.

[WhitewolfStark]

This pretty much sums it up.

Not only the Dance of the Dragons, but also the Brackens and Blackwoods--the novels have made the perpetually of feuds pretty clear.

And the Starks and the North aren't particularly happy about the "kneeling to the dragons" in the first place. Can't see how Lyanna's being Rhaegar's public mistress or even wife would help much of anything. 

And I just realized that I left the Lannisters on an incomplete thought. If Rhaegar ever would take Cersei as a third wife (highly doubtful--Tywin doesn't seem the type to suffer the insult of having his family be third anything), that immediately puts the lives of Lyanna and any children she has in danger.

"So sad what happened to your second wife..."

"Children, they die so easily..."

Which is why the idea of taking a second (or more) wife, though there's precedent, is not a good recipe if one is marrying outside of one's own immediate family.

[WhitewolfStark]

Nicely put. I expect that Ned and Robert's friendship would likely be ruined as well. If Rhaegar's plan was to disrupt the alliances that the North was building, his plan was great. Except, of course, for the fact that he was the one to take the blame.

Which is why I entertain the following notion on occasion: It's a good reason why Rhaegar likely didn't kidnap her but instead was the patsy who got blamed in someone else's game of thrones--and then by some serendipity ended up with Lyanna by a strange freak chance occurrence.
 

Littlefinger is far too young to have moved these things in motion IMO, but Varys, our other major player, wasn't.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Are any of you familiar with the article "Southron Ambitions?"  If you find the ideas in it credible, then you also have to believe that Rickard, Robert, and Brandon were planning to usurp the throne.  If not the throne directly, they want to take the power away from the Targaryens.  Under such a scenario there was no way to satisfy Rickard unless Lyanna was returned.  We don't yet know what Rickard wanted but if he was involved in the plotting, Rhaegar threw a wrench in his plans.

[Dorian Martell]

I'm sure Martin would have been able to weave it into an interesting (if different) story.

If he could have he would have, but he didn't. There is a reason we have the story he wrote 

[devilish]

The rebellion didn't started because of Lyanna but simple because Aerys went full murder mode by burning half the Stark's family and demanding the head of Ned and Robert

[TimJames]

If he could have he would have, but he didn't. There is a reason we have the story he wrote 

If you don't like "what if" threads, the least you can do is stop trying to ruin everyone else's fun. 

[devilish]

I believe that people underestimate the role of king and the Targs in the story. They see them as glorified Lord Paramounts sitting on a lovely seat which they are not. Aerys provoked Tywin in numerous occasions, passing comments over his wife, stripping his heir from him and humiliating his daughter. Any other Lord would have tasted Tywin's anger but instead the Lord Paramount of the Westerlands accepted it with little protest and didn't even participate in the rebellion until it was evident that the Targ's rule was numbered. Same thing can be said about the Starks, whom let face it, weren't really that comfortable with being ruled by the Targs in KL. Lyanna got kidnapped by Rhaegar and yet the Starks refused to call the banners against the crown. Such resolve remained unshaken even when Brandan got arrested and Rickard got summoned to KL to answer for his son's crimes. Others would have sensed a trap from miles away, but Rickard obeyed his king without question. That was the loyalty the Lord Paramounts showed towards their king, a loyalty which would have remained intact if it wasn't for Aerys who went on burning two Starks and demanding the heads of a third Stark and the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. 

Many might question such loyalty to the Targs but in reality such loyalty was understandable. The Targs were able to stop centuries of bickering between the respective kingdoms in the most spectacular way possible (ie a small army and dragons). After conquering Westeros they brought relative peace and prosperity to the land by forgiving and restoring those who rebelled against them (a rare thing in such a brutal world) and turning the fortunes around to those who showed loyalty to them (Baratheons, Tullys and Tyrells). In peaceful times a merchant could travel from Winterfell to Sunspear with minimum hassle. Therefore you cant blame the Westerosi for thinking that the Targs were super beings and that a world without them was inconceivable.

Returning to the subject, I believe that if it wasn't for Aerys, Rhaegar would have easily gone away with it with a simple sorry and some token concessions. Brandan would be forgiven of his crimes and Rhaegar would take Lyanna as second wife while Robert B would probably be granted more lands, a seat in the small council and a much higher prospect to marry (the crown prince only daughter ie Rhaenys Targeryan). Dorne would accept the arrangement of Rhaegar having a second wife as long as he ensures them that Aegon will be heir to the crown and that Elia will always have a higher role to that of Lyanna. The religion may throw a fit with sporadic rebellions across the Southern regions of Westeros. However that would be something the Lord Paramounts will deal with quite easily considering that the church has no trained troops and that the Lord Paramount have control over most of their bannermen. 

[joluoto2]

The Starks wouldn't have accepted Lyanna being a "second wife". No they'd demand compensation, and that compensation would be in the form of Elia being set aside and Lyanna being Rhaegar's future queen. If Rhaegar or Aerys accepted that, then I think Rickard would be somewhat satisfied, he can work on getting Lyanna's children becoming Rhaegar's heirs later. Dorne would of course be furious, but their response would probably be in the form of vipers in Lyanna's bed rather than war.

[redtree]

The Starks wouldn't have accepted Lyanna being a "second wife". No they'd demand compensation, and that compensation would be in the form of Elia being set aside and Lyanna being Rhaegar's future queen. If Rhaegar or Aerys accepted that, then I think Rickard would be somewhat satisfied, he can work on getting Lyanna's children becoming Rhaegar's heirs later. Dorne would of course be furious, but their response would probably be in the form of vipers in Lyanna's bed rather than war.

Agree with the later part, with Oberyn's knowledge of poison Lyanna could expect multiple miscarriages or sudden fever but i don't with the former. Setting aside a wife who had given birth to 2 children would be too immoral and distasteful, and Stark would be just like Lannister except with wolf on their banner. And if Rhaegar agreed, he'd be much worse than Aegon the Unworthy. 

[Sly Wren]

And I just realized that I left the Lannisters on an incomplete thought. If Rhaegar ever would take Cersei as a third wife (highly doubtful--Tywin doesn't seem the type to suffer the insult of having his family be third anything), that immediately puts the lives of Lyanna and any children she has in danger.
"So sad what happened to your second wife..."

"Children, they die so easily..."

Which is why the idea of taking a second (or more) wife, though there's precedent, is not a good recipe if one is marrying outside of one's own immediate family.

Agreed--though even marrying inside the Targs end up with plenty of conflict.

Which is why I entertain the following notion on occasion: It's a good reason why Rhaegar likely didn't kidnap her but instead was the patsy who got blamed in someone else's game of thrones--and then by some serendipity ended up with Lyanna by a strange freak chance occurrence.
 

Littlefinger is far too young to have moved these things in motion IMO, but Varys, our other major player, wasn't.

Yup--I keep going in that direction, too. Note that the bard characters in the novels are never the actual takers of Stark maidens. And Marillion, tied to both Cat's taking of Tyrion (in the Riverlands not many leagues from Harrenhal) and Sansa's hiding out in a towered castle in the Vale--Marillion ends up a witness who is forced to take the fall (arguably literally) for other people's actions and plans.

So, not only would it have been very hard for Rhaegar to have publicly kept Lyanna on his own, but it seems like other people involved in the mess might have made it impossible to settle everything down. 

[Sly Wren]

Are any of you familiar with the article "Southron Ambitions?"  If you find the ideas in it credible, then you also have to believe that Rickard, Robert, and Brandon were planning to usurp the throne.  If not the throne directly, they want to take the power away from the Targaryens.  Under such a scenario there was no way to satisfy Rickard unless Lyanna was returned.  We don't yet know what Rickard wanted but if he was involved in the plotting, Rhaegar threw a wrench in his plans.

Yup! I'm not sure either what Rickard and the others may ro may not have been up to, but the idea that Rhaegar and the Targs could just muscle all of this into a happy conclusion with everyone quiet and at least pretending containment--that seems really hard to imagine.

[purple-eyes]

Agree with the later part, with Oberyn's knowledge of poison Lyanna could expect multiple miscarriages or sudden fever but i don't with the former. Setting aside a wife who had given birth to 2 children would be too immoral and distasteful, and Stark would be just like Lannister except with wolf on their banner. And if Rhaegar agreed, he'd be much worse than Aegon the Unworthy. 

rhaegar is already almost aegon the unworthy to me. 

I will not be surprised at all if he installed lyanna as queen and jon as heir because lyanna was his true love and jon was supposed to be his savior son. Like how tarly got rid of Sam to favor Dickon. 

Let us face it, this is just a duplicate of Henry viii, Anne boylen and Catherine of Dorne (sorry, I mean Spain) . 

Rhaegar did not like his wife so he chose a new woman as his favorite, who is 10 years younger than Elia and more beautiful and has not given birth to child yet. Honestly Lyanna is much much more attractive than Elia in their current ages. 

I do not know why people thought rhaegar and lyanna are some Romeo and Juliet or some tragic star crossed lovers. It is just a story which happened almost everyday: a husband abandoned his old wife and choose a new young woman. 

[redtree]

I do not know why people thought rhaegar and lyanna are some Romeo and Juliet or some tragic star crossed lovers. It is just a story which happened almost everyday: a husband abandoned his old wife and choose a new young woman. 

I don't, i actually think it's tragic that thousands died because of 2 dumbasses (if they were indeed eloped)
Crazy paranoid dad+Thoughtless Rash brother = Success !! WTH ?

Let us face it, this is just a duplicate of Henry viii, Anne boylen and Catherine of Dorne (sorry, I mean Spain) . 

Much much worse, Henry 8 strayed because he and Catherine of Aragorn didn't produce any son. Elia did, and a healthy boy who looked like him. Henry 8 later had Edward and he worshipped Jane all of his life, even still hung tapestry of her portrait when he was already with Katherine Parr. He also chose to be buried beside her

I will not be surprised at all if he installed lyanna as queen and jon as heir because lyanna was his true love and jon was supposed to be his savior son. Like how tarly got rid of Sam to favor Dickon. 

I would be, i don't even think he was going to marry her. If he did, why not tell Ned and finish the rebellion with discussion ? 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Elia would be ok with a paramour not a second wife. Why people keep saying that Elia was a doormat?

[purple-eyes]

I am pretty sure Catherine of aragorn was not ok to be doormat for Anne boylen. 

But she still became a doormat for her. 

The point is, if rhaegar thinks elia is a doormat, then she has to be. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The point is, if rhaegar thinks elia is a doormat, then she has to be. 

And if he thinks that Father Christmas have to came over the rainbow while riding a magical unicorn to tucked him in and kiss him goodnight it has to be done?

[Dorian Martell]

If you don't like "what if" threads, the least you can do is stop trying to ruin everyone else's fun. 

If a single post can ruin all your what if the author wrote a different story imagination fun you might have far more personal issues than my response. Maybe seek  professional help?  

[Lord Lannister]

If you don't like "what if" threads, the least you can do is stop trying to ruin everyone else's fun. 

It's a discussion forum. By the very nature of that, not everyone is going to share your opinion. By your own logic, it could be argued your attempts to police threads from dissenting opinion are "ruining people's fun." Note I didn't presume to say everyone else's.