Ghost and Melissandre

[talvikorppi]

Maybe Ghost thinks Jon and Val belong together too. Although this is probably a too complex notion for a Direwolf, I have never seen a Direwolf, much less a Direwolf with a bond to a human, so maybe it is possible. Jon has not yet grieved Ygrette's death, so he cannot accept seeing Val as a potential new partner.

 

There is a definite flirtatious note, though, mainly from Val's side. (There was a flirtatious note to Jon & Alys Karstark as well... Well, he's a pretty boy, prettier than Tormund's daughters, lol )

Anyway, I'm not really interested in potential "romantic" pair-ups at this point, there's a war for the dawn to be won first. (I ship Jaime and Brienne but, alas, I don't see a happy ending for them, Jaime is doomed.)

Mel definitely came on to Jon, she saw something in Jon powerful enough to try to make a shadow baby. Thanks to Jon being still hung up on his first love Ygritte, Mel's plan went awry.

[MotherMerciless]

There is a definite flirtatious note, though, mainly from Val's side. (There was a flirtatious note to Jon & Alys Karstark as well... Well, he's a pretty boy, prettier than Tormund's daughters, lol )

Anyway, I'm not really interested in potential "romantic" pair-ups at this point, there's a war for the dawn to be won first. (I ship Jaime and Brienne but, alas, I don't see a happy ending for them, Jaime is doomed.)

Mel definitely came on to Jon, she saw something in Jon powerful enough to try to make a shadow baby. Thanks to Jon being still hung up on his first love Ygritte, Mel's plan went awry.

Yeah me too, regarding pairing characters up, I am only praying Brienne and Jaime survive the wrath of Stoneheart and they can be together, even if just as they are now, a confused, funny, loyal couple. Why oh why did Biter bite... her... that was not intentional.

I think Jon has too much to do to get involved with anyone at this point, but who knows, pretty boy could start something now and finish it later, if he lives long enough.

[Good Guy Garlan]

This is a neat idea. I like it. And there's a hint that animals are immune to glamours and stuff like that, when Arya has the Ugly Girl's face on and the seal sees through the illusion and recognises her. 

Maybe Ghost was good to Melisandre that one time because he saw she was really a nice old lady. 

[Dolorous22]

I like to think that Ghost could ONLY see Mel in her true form, so already has. I'd love to have the quote for the part where she 'confuses' him. Because I expect a glamour would confuse him, at first, not forever though. It's Jon that may be in for a shock! Having access to Ghost's senses will undoubtedly help Jon tremendously. And that's sort of my point for mentioning Varymyr. Though it isn't the same thing, I think it shows that a glamour cannot fool an animal nor visa virsa. They both see each-other.

The major difference with Mel is that it was a friendly encounter, not a stand-off. Also, iIrc, Ghost seemed a little too friendly with Mel. He ignored Jon's command to return ("to, me") possibly charmed by powerful magic. If that's the case then, well, Jon is basically doomed. If Ghost can't tell friend from foe then the whole thing is impossible judge. 

I suppose I should make a point instead of rambling. As the reader, I trust the Direwolves implicitly, I think that's the point of them. They're the best kind of companion, especially a canine, man's best friend and all that. Women's too. I'm certain that either Val or Mel will retrieve Ghost (who was already on edge) to aid Jon. I'd like to see a couple of stewards and a builder take on a Direwolf. 

[MotherMerciless]

This is a neat idea. I like it. And there's a hint that animals are immune to glamours and stuff like that, when Arya has the Ugly Girl's face on and the seal sees through the illusion and recognises her. 

Maybe Ghost was good to Melisandre that one time because he saw she was really a nice old lady. 

Thanks

 

Mel being a nice old lady sounds so wrong, but I often find myself defending her when discussing the series with non-readers. Sure she isn't that nice old lady that gives you warm cookies and tells you how she was when she was your age, but I still have room in my heart to believe she means well... deep deeep deeep inside.

[talvikorppi]

I like to think that Ghost could ONLY see Mel in her true form, so already has. I'd love to have the quote for the part where she 'confuses' him. Because I expect a glamour would confuse him, at first, not forever though. It's Jon that may be in for a shock! Having access to Ghost's senses will undoubtedly help Jon tremendously. And that's sort of my point for mentioning Varymyr. Though it isn't the same thing, I think it shows that a glamour cannot fool an animal nor visa virsa. They both see each-other.

The major difference with Mel is that it was a friendly encounter, not a stand-off. Also, iIrc, Ghost seemed a little too friendly with Mel. He ignored Jon's command to return ("to, me") possibly charmed by powerful magic. If that's the case then, well, Jon is basically doomed. If Ghost can't tell friend from foe then the whole thing is impossible judge. 

I suppose I should make a point instead of rambling. As the reader, I trust the Direwolves implicitly, I think that's the point of them. They're the best kind of companion, especially a canine, man's best friend and all that. Women's too. I'm certain that either Val or Mel will retrieve Ghost (who was already on edge) to aid Jon. I'd like to see a couple of stewards and a builder take on a Direwolf. 

My thinking is that Ghost has never been charmed by Mel's powerful human magic. He just senses that this human is benevolent towards his human at this point, so he'll be nice to her. I don't think animals can be "charmed" or controlled by human magic just like that, rare skinchangers apart. Ghost is a direwolf and he has direwolf instincts. He has bonded/imprinted with a particular human because he took care of him as a puppy, and as a canine, that's where his loyalty and bond comes from.

What does Ghost feel in his wolfish way when Jon has his wolf dreams? Poor Ghost, he must be confused in his direwolfish mind, shake his shaggy mane to get rid of it all.

[sarah.jenice]

What do you think? Would you like that? Do you think it is a possibility? I mean, glamours probably work only on humans, as they were meant for them.

I think Jon will be thanking all of the Old Gods and the New that he didn't hit that. 

[MotherMerciless]

I think Jon will be thanking all of the Old Gods and the New that he didn't hit that. 

LOL!

[Dolorous22]

My thinking is that Ghost has never been charmed by Mel's powerful human magic. He just senses that this human is benevolent towards his human at this point, so he'll be nice to her. I don't think animals can be "charmed" or controlled by human magic just like that, rare skinchangers apart. Ghost is a direwolf and he has direwolf instincts. He has bonded/imprinted with a particular human because he took care of him as a puppy, and as a canine, that's where his loyalty and bond comes from.

What does Ghost feel in his wolfish way when Jon has his wolf dreams? Poor Ghost, he must be confused in his direwolfish mind, shake his shaggy mane to get rid of it all.

I agree. Jon doesn't just have a magical ally he's a loyal one in the truest sense. I'm just wondering what Jon will see through Ghost's eyes... I'm hoping the direwolf's senses can reveal much and more to Jon that he couldn't otherwise sense. As when Ghost sensed Shaggy Dog. I bet Jon will learn more through his direwolf than Mel with her flames. 

I don't think the wolf minds being warged (at least after being broken in). According to the Varymyr prologue, it's the person that will suffer from long-term warging. With the warg eventually being consumed by his new skin. I think it's more traumatic for a human being, Hodor hates it. I suppose, as a human, you can feel yourself being pushed to the back of your mind and your body does things against your will. Direwolves don't have a concept of politics, only the simple truths in life.  I don't think we've seen any creature react to warging the way Thistle did.

[talvikorppi]

I agree. Jon doesn't just have a magical ally he's a loyal one in the truest sense. I'm just wondering what Jon will see through Ghost's eyes... I'm hoping the direwolf's senses can reveal much and more to Jon that he couldn't otherwise sense. As when Ghost sensed Shaggy Dog. I bet Jon will learn more through his direwolf than Mel with her flames. 
I don't think the wolf minds being warged (at least after being broken in). According to the Varymyr prologue, it's the person that will suffer from long-term warging. With the warg eventually being consumed by his new skin. I think it's more traumatic for a human being, Hodor hates it. I suppose, as a human, you can feel yourself being pushed to the back of your mind and your body does things against your will. Direwolves don't have a concept of politics, only the simple truths in life.  I don't think we've seen any creature react to warging the way Thistle did.

I'm not too sure... Skinchanging "lesser animals" like ravens or even boars... But direwolves/wolves are very intelligent animals on their own right. If they're anything like wolves in our world, they're smart. Where I live, a wolf pack has been roaming but always avoiding human contact (I've only seen paw prints in snow). Think intelligent dogs, like border collies.

With that level of intelligence, wouldn't you be a bit miffed with somebody taking over? Unless there's a strong bond, like the Stark kids have with teir direwolves.

Still, I'd love a Ghost POV chapter. Someone on this or some other board envisaged it: "Napped. Smells nice, squirrel. Ate it. Nap. Jon's not playing with me. He's napping an awul lot. Rat. Yummy. Why isn't Jon playing with me! Wake up!"

[FC_Lymond]

Neat idea.

If Mel is some kind of Demon/Elf/Goddess it's almost guaranteed that we will see her real form before she dies.  No author would pass up that chance.

[Durran Durrandon]

Well, I can't be specific as i haven't read the books in years, and I don't have them on me atm, but I am sure that throughout the story we are given hints that Melissandre is in fact much older than she appears to be. Also, the gem she wears around her neck, how it glows, and when it glows, seems to be the 'magical item' that facilitates this glamour. I am sure someone will be able to give  you proper examples.

Yeah, the glamour is a common explanation, but I don't think it is correct. I think the difference between Melisandre's presumed age and her appearance rest in her physical transformation. Ive written about this a bit, but in short, in Dance her POV tells us that she has smoking black blood, fire inside of her, and she doesn't need to sleep or drink. I would add that all of these traits are the same for Beric Dondarrion .  Mel, doesn't act like a glamoured old person. When she is first introduced in the text, she basically picks Maester Cressen off of the floor, and he notes how strong she is.

[MotherMerciless]

Yeah, the glamour is a common explanation, but I don't think it is correct. I think the difference between Melisandre's presumed age and her appearance rest in her physical transformation. Ive written about this a bit, but in short, in Dance her POV tells us that she has smoking black blood, fire inside of her, and she doesn't need to sleep or drink. I would add that all of these traits are the same for Beric Dondarrion .  Mel, doesn't act like a glamoured old person. When she is first introduced in the text, she basically picks Maester Cressen off of the floor, and he notes how strong she is.

So you are saying she is not glamoured but actually physically transformed into what we identify as Mel (sorry if I did not understand what you meant)? Thanks for adding that she is strangely strong, I did not remember that.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Yeah, the glamour is a common explanation, but I don't think it is correct. I think the difference between Melisandre's presumed age and her appearance rest in her physical transformation. Ive written about this a bit, but in short, in Dance her POV tells us that she has smoking black blood, fire inside of her, and she doesn't need to sleep or drink. I would add that all of these traits are the same for Beric Dondarrion .  Mel, doesn't act like a glamoured old person. When she is first introduced in the text, she basically picks Maester Cressen off of the floor, and he notes how strong she is.

I totally agree that she's an Undead like Beric or Stoneheart, but I guess her use of a glamour depends on the manner of her death. If she was violently murdered like Beric and Stoneheart and has visible scars or wounds like them, then she'd need to use a glamour to hide them. But if she was killed by, say, poison, then maybe she stayed the same after she was resurrected, no glamour needed.

[Durran Durrandon]

So you are saying she is not glamoured but actually physically transformed into what we identify as Mel (sorry if I did not understand what you meant)? Thanks for adding that she is strangely strong, I did not remember that.

Yes, she is old and has been a priestess a long time. The use of magic and the fire inside her, has basically preserved her in her current physical state .

[Durran Durrandon]

I totally agree that she's an Undead like Beric or Stoneheart, but I guess her use of a glamour depends on the manner of her death. If she was violently murdered like Beric and Stoneheart and has visible scars or wounds like them, then she'd need to use a glamour to hide them. But if she was killed by, say, poison, then maybe she stayed the same after she was resurrected, no glamour needed.

Possibly, but I think the idea that Beric and Stoneheart are undead in the same sense that say Coldhands is undead is maybe an imposition of a standard trope that isn't really being used. Certainty both are dead and both were resurrected But they aren't decaying, they don't have blood gathering in their hands and turning black like Coldhands. They are not seemingly mindless like the wights raised by the Others or possibly Gregor Clegane. They are simply revived and sustained by the fire in them. I think it is best to think of it on its own terms. Mel doesn't necessarily have to have died to have undergone her current transformation, though she may well have, but I suspect if you suddenly turned off all the magic in the world, she would drop over dead.

[The scourge of westeros]

The passage where people are saying Mel confused ghost is the jon chapter before Mel's in adwd. She doesn't really trick or confuse ghost. Iirc she asks if she can pet Jon's dire wolf and jon responds that it's not a good idea, which always struck me as weird because jon usually tells friendly aquaintences that it's ok as long as Jon's present. Mel ignored Jon's warning and ghost cozies up to Mel and let's her pet him. When jon calls ghost, ghost doesn't respond and continues to stick near Mel. 

[talvikorppi]

The passage where people are saying Mel confused ghost is the jon chapter before Mel's in adwd. She doesn't really trick or confuse ghost. Iirc she asks if she can pet Jon's dire wolf and jon responds that it's not a good idea, which always struck me as weird because jon usually tells friendly aquaintences that it's ok as long as Jon's present. Mel ignored Jon's warning and ghost cozies up to Mel and let's her pet him. When jon calls ghost, ghost doesn't respond and continues to stick near Mel. 

The point is that Jon doesn't think Mel is a friendly acquantace but Ghost does. It annoys Jon.

[The scourge of westeros]

Ghost seems to trust Mel and Mel also seems to have a large amount of confidence or hope in ghost. She tells jon to keep his wolf near, and tells jon to embrace his "power" with ghost. All of these things she says in connection to jon being in danger. It's as if she likes jon but knows ghost will be integral in jon's purpose. 

I like how Jon's immediate thought after ghost staying with Mel and not responding was, " that was queer" lol

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

By recent speculation I mean what has been mentioned recently in the winteriscoming and watchersonthewall sites. Both mention 'Ghost', or rather the ball that will stand in for him, was present during the resurrection scene.

Sounds like you should be in the show forum then.