Dragonglass and Other's weapons

[Adrew Bornley]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before (I didn't really check), but I think that what the Others use as weapons (some sort of ice that I call otherglass) is the equivalent of dragonglass/obsidian. This mean that if the dragons are stabbed by otherglass they will die, like the Others melt when they are stabbed with obsidian. So dragonglass comes from fire and otherglass comes from ice.

That is just a thought, but maybe it will play a huge role in the future. Who knows maybe the Others will kill the dragons and save the day, that would be epic.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I could see the WW's blades being able to penetrate the dragons armor, but it would still require a death blow imo, not just a golden bullet scenario.

[Clegane'sPup]

I think I will go with Tyrion’s thoughts about killing a dragon. “The eyes were where a dragon was most vulnerable. The eyes and the brain behind them.”  Makes me think archers and arrows. The Dorthraki are supposed to be good with a bow.

I suppose if a dragon is grounded an Other could jam a sword through its eye but a hot flash of fire from the dragon’s mouth might melt the Other (?).

But, yeah, you have a good idea.

[Wavey Sauce]

I think I will go with Tyrion’s thoughts about killing a dragon. “The eyes were where a dragon was most vulnerable. The eyes and the brain behind them.”  Makes me think archers and arrows. The Dorthraki are supposed to be good with a bow.

I suppose if a dragon is grounded an Other could jam a sword through its eye but a hot flash of fire from the dragon’s mouth might melt the Other (?).

But, yeah, you have a good idea.

 

Yep thats what brought down rhaenys targaryen. Pretty sure her dragon took a scorpion arrow through the eye ircc

[Curled Finger]

Shortly before the great update we were discussing the possibilities for dragon slayers.  It never occurred to me that anything but an arrow would kill a dragon, but there are some very cool if improbable ideas out there for swords to the eyes or soft under belly or what have you of dragons.   My biggest issue with dragon slaying by sword is the size of the dragons--they aren't cute little baby dragons anymore.   Granted they aren't giant, but I believe their wing span is 20 feet or so?  That's a big flying lizard.  Even big old Gregor Clegane hasn't got that reach.  I think a dragon would have to be already pretty badly injured to be slain by sword, like the dragons in the pit at the end of TPATQ.   

Other Glass, OTOH, is a bitchen idea.  I hope this will spark more discussion regarding ancestral Ice.  For clarification's sake, OP, do you take Valyrian steel to be dragon steel?  

[Adrew Bornley]

I think that valyrian steel is an evolution of obsidian or something like that.

Also, dragons can be slayed by arrows made of otherglass and we saw giants throwing an arrow on the top of the wall. They can hit a flying dragon.

[Curled Finger]

I think that valyrian steel is an evolution of obsidian or something like that.

Also, dragons can be slayed by arrows made of otherglass and we saw giants throwing an arrow on the top of the wall. They can hit a flying dragon.

I"m on the fence about Dragon Steel leaning towards VS fitting the bill.   This idea of yours about Other Glass is really interesting.    Have you formulated it's make up yet?   A great deal goes into the production of VS: steel, obsidian, dragon fire and magic (though I am pretty sure it's some sort of blood magic, not simple spell casting).   If obsidian is representative of the fire element in that it is volcanic rock, what would it's counter be in terms of ice?  Perhaps it is the fire and spells that ultimately determine whether a weapon is useful for Ice or Fire?   Perhaps it is something more akin to Dawn, which I've imagined was shaped more than forged, falling from the cold sky.   

To your giants hurling arrows, this is plausible every way I can imagine it, but I don't recall reading this part at all.  You will have to remind me where to refresh my memory here.   Do you recall if the giants were throwing dragon glass off the wall?   TBH, dragon slaying from the wall never even entered my mind, so I like this very much as an equalizer, though I think a bowman could hit a dragon in the air from the ground.   Outside of Drogon's impressive showing on HBO last season, it would be helpful to determine how far away a dragon can spew fire to the ground while in flight.    I think that would be a good place to start as to the distance an arrow would have to travel in order to make a kill hit.

Endgame is beginning to shape up so thanks for this Andrew.   I could see how dragons could assist in ridding Westeros of the Others, but I've not ever come up with a reasonable scenario for ridding Westeros of dragons.      

[Adrew Bornley]

With the giants throwing arrows I meant during the battle at the wall. They could reach the top of the wall from the ground. With the wall being 700 feet tall, it is plausible that those arrows (they were normal arrows if I remember correctly) could have hit some dragons flying by. 

Edit: Also, what do you mean with "Have you formulated it's make up yet?"

[Maester of Valyria]

I think that valyrian steel is an evolution of obsidian or something like that.

Also, dragons can be slayed by arrows made of otherglass and we saw giants throwing an arrow on the top of the wall. They can hit a flying dragon.

I'm pretty sure the giants firing arrows to the top of the Wall is show-only. In the books, quite a big deal is made of the Watch being safe from arrows from the ground.

[Curled Finger]

What constitutes Other's Glass.  How is it made?   The materials/type of magic if any.   This is some pretty strong stuff to stand up to regular steel, shattering it on impact & all.   The idea that it is only shaped ice is well spooky and very very interesting.    I don't mean that you said this at all, it is only my imagination wandering where it will.   I'm a big fan of the magic weapons in this tale.   I have a theory, or rather had a theory prior to the update, that Oath Keeper and Widow's Wail are no longer true VS having been reforged in wild fire not dragon fire.   I further expect that Tobho's spells fell short of the actual VS requirements.   The actual making of all the weapons is important in my mind.  If Other Glass is a type of steel, what could that steel be?  If it is only shaped Ice, what magic could make it so strong?   If it is more or less made of a material such as Dawn is, that opens an entirely new can of worms for everyone.   

I misread and subsequently misspelled your screenname.    A thousand pardons Adrew.   

[Adrew Bornley]

Same questions can be asked about dragonglass. How is it made? What magic, if any, goes into it? Is it just a rock?

I personally think that dragonglass was used to strengthen steel with maybe some magic in order to create valyrian steel.

Other Glass can be kind of the same thing, worked by Other "blacksmiths" and instead of high temperatures they used very low temperatures to work it.

Ps: Don't worry about my name I just westerosed my name

[Curled Finger]

Adrew you certainly have a point with that about dragonglass.   I guess I always assumed it was simple obsidian shaped by hand and perhaps infused with a little magic since it came as a gift from the COTF.   Damnable magic weapons.

[sarah.jenice]

It definitely seems plausible that the Other's weapons would be anathema to the dragons like fire-based things are to them. I have trouble seeing one of the Others managing to stab a dragon without getting doused in dragonflame first, but arrows are a definite possibility.

They need to have something to really be a challenge for the dragons or the War for the Dawn 2.0 is going to be way too one sided. 

"The Others and the wights are coming. There's thousands of them!"  

Daenerys gazed at the unending horde of wights and the Others mounted on spiders as big as hounds. "Dracarys." 

"Huh...looks like they've all just melted. Let's go swimming."

[Tonberry]

I'm pretty sure the giants firing arrows to the top of the Wall is show-only. In the books, quite a big deal is made of the Watch being safe from arrows from the ground.

Jon's buddies each had a straw dude they were hoping would get hit by arrows. They were betting as a way to pass the time and keep their thoughts away from their horrendous situation. Normal wildlings were firing the arrows. I think there might have been some talk about updrafts or something, but you're basically right. Arrows mostly didn't make it to the top of the Wall.

While it would definitely be possible to fire an arrow high enough to hit a dragon in the eye, accuracy would be a problem. I don't see it happening. Meraxes was killed by a scorpion bolt, not an arrow, and that seems more like a ridiculously lucky break than anything else. How often have dragons in open air been killed by anything but other dragons?

[Maester of Valyria]

Jon's buddies each had a straw dude they were hoping would get hit by arrows. They were betting as a way to pass the time and keep their thoughts away from their horrendous situation. Normal wildlings were firing the arrows. I think there might have been some talk about updrafts or something, but you're basically right. Arrows mostly didn't make it to the top of the Wall.

While it would definitely be possible to fire an arrow high enough to hit a dragon in the eye, accuracy would be a problem. I don't see it happening. Meraxes was killed by a scorpion bolt, not an arrow, and that seems more like a ridiculously lucky break than anything else. How often have dragons in open air been killed by anything but other dragons?

This is correct: the only arrows that made it to the top of the Wall were lifted up by the wind; perhaps I should have mentioned this in my previous post.

I agree with you about accuracy being a huge problem for ground-based archers: Meraxes' death was very clearly a matter of luck, perhaps due to a large volley of scorpian bolts at the same time (or maybe even magic?). As for your last point, during the Rhoynish wars at least two of Valyria's dragons were felled by archers (although again this seems to be a case of overwhelming numbers of archers firing great volleys of arrows skyward).

[Tonberry]

Thanks for the reminder! It's pretty clear from our analysis what GRRM's attitude is on humans vs. dragons (or anything vs. dragons, really). These things are basically unstoppable. It takes overwhelming numerical force (as in the previous examples or in the slaughter in the Dragonpit) or incredible luck to succeed against them. Tolkien would let a hero like Bard or Turin kill a dragon, but GRRM is much more of a realist. I honestly don't see how the Others can stand against dragons based on what we know of them so far. If they do manage to bring one down, maybe we'll see a dragon-wight, and that would even the odds, but I still wonder if "fire made flesh" could be reanimated.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I'm pretty sure the giants firing arrows to the top of the Wall is show-only. In the books, quite a big deal is made of the Watch being safe from arrows from the ground.

The giants shooting arrows is show only, the giants mainly use uprooted tree's as clubs, some had huge stones tied to the end of the uprooted trees as if to make a mace.  However, 1 nights watchmen was struck in the leg by an arrow, it likely did not do much damage but it made him fall and he died. 

 

I would like to point out however that we have not seen the WW's use bows, and 1 thing ice definitely cannot do is bend, so I would say bows are out for them.  Wights are definitely too slow to use bows.

[Curled Finger]

OK, so regular arrows are out.   It has to be a bolt then?  You don't really bend to use a cross bow, right?   Ewwww, bolts made of other glass.   Wicked.  

[Magnar of Skagos]

I think I will go with Tyrion’s thoughts about killing a dragon. “The eyes were where a dragon was most vulnerable. The eyes and the brain behind them.”  Makes me think archers and arrows. The Dorthraki are supposed to be good with a bow.

I suppose if a dragon is grounded an Other could jam a sword through its eye but a hot flash of fire from the dragon’s mouth might melt the Other (?).

But, yeah, you have a good idea.

 

Perhaps whatever magic is inside the Other's blade is able to pierce dragonscale.

[Clegane'sPup]

Perhaps whatever magic is inside the Other's blade is able to pierce dragonscale.

Yes, perhaps it can. The introduction and the few descriptions of the Other’s have been well written.  Their blade is described “alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on.”

There are at least two more books to the saga and because my imagination is not very good I can’t envision Dany’s three dragons making it to the wall nor can I picture the Other’s south of the wall, but those are different topics.

If I go by what I read in the books so far, dragonglass/obsidian/frozen fire is the way to kill an Other. So yes, I agree that maybe an Other could withstand the actual fire breathing dragon and stab it.