Werthead

Terrorist incident in Colorado Springs

227 posts in this topic

Ongoing situation.

Four police officers and an “unknown number of civilians” were injured Friday in a shooting at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colo., as police hunted for at least one gunman and gunshots continued to ring out from the building hours after the ordeal began.

Very little information was available about what transpired at and near the health center as evening drew near. Police described the scene as “very active,” with no suspect in custody and gunshots still audible in the area.

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Police spokewoman just confirmed that the shooting did start at the planned parenthood facility.

Reddit live feed

 

Edited by zelticgar

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Situation is inherently political and thus deserves to be politicized. 

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3 dead, 9 injured.  So far, no staff or patients of Planned Parenthood are known to be among the dead or injured.

Motive still unrevealed

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Triskele,

There is a probable motivation but it's pretty early to say anything with certainty.  Do you know something we don't?

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I would be really, really, really surprised if an attack on Planned Parenthood was not motivated by opposition to Planned Parenthood.

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WF,

I would too.  However, crazies do crazy things for crazy reasons.  You and Triskele are probably correct, but, it's early, we will see.

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Scot - I respect the shit out of your litigation of the situation.  I really do.  And when it comes to legal justice, yours is the right track.  But when it comes to public opinion, that doesn't matter so much.  I am not calling for any abrupt legal action.  But I am willing to bet quite heavily that the shooter is a right-winger with an anti-woman, anti-planned parenthood bent, and I'd be willing to bet that you would bet on this as well.  Let the legal system handle this legally.  But in the court of public opinion, I am pretty comfortable saying that a right-wing lunatic did this. 

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Crazy? Perhaps it's time to examine this. IF you legitimately believe to be true that abortion is murder, AND that Planned Parenthood sells "baby body parts," THEN it logically follows that Planned Parenthood is a monstrously immoral organization, the enemy of all humanitarians and even humanity, just as much as any other organization that commits mass murder. So in that sense, it's no more crazy than people fighting against murderous, oppressive regimes, using whatever means they have.

But one can say that one would have to be crazy, to believe these things to begin with. Again I don't think so. People believe untrue things all the time, for any number of irrational reasons, like that one's political party, talk or news radio host or pundit says it, one's family and friends all believe it, and one views media that is biased toward portraying it as if it were true. Given the way such phrases as "baby body parts" make their way quickly into the common parlance (it was used by posters on this forum, non-ironically, very recently) it's not really that abnormal for someone to believe these things.

One could lastly say that the craziness is in the violence. Again.. I don't think so. Violence is prevalent in our culture and in our lives and in our world and history. Violence in some form or another is at the root of control and power structures of all kinds, even the more benign. Violence in some form or another is in our industrial activity and food production. Shooting people with guns is approved in many situations legally, and socially approved in many more. Violence is not inherently crazy. Now, I don't think the shooters in this case or any case are examples of "good mental health," quite the opposite according to my psychology, but to suggest they are crazy is almost to ignore or dismiss the very real, normal, and widespread sources of motivation available in ideology to those so inclined to take action. Those who are, to quote Trump.... "passionate."

Edited by Wise Fool

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Triskele,

I think you are probably right.  What I'm saying is we don't know yet.  I'd wait before attempting to make hay.

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Yup, if you believe that fetuses have the moral status of human beings, then abortion is murder, and it's perfectly legitimate to use lethal force to prevent it the same way it would be legitimate to step in and shoot someone that was trying to kill your spouse or even your neighbor. The only real surprise is that this doesn't happen more often. 

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Yup, if you believe that fetuses have the moral status of human beings, then abortion is murder, and it's perfectly legitimate to use lethal force to prevent it the same way it would be legitimate to step in and shoot someone that was trying to kill your spouse or even your neighbor. The only real surprise is that this doesn't happen more often. 

Most people are not really that "passionate." It takes a certain level of "passion" to make someone break bad like this in an otherwise normal state of the land. If the state of the land worsens, i.e. to social or political or natural upheaval or disaster, then much less passion is required and we'd see a lot more violence. Things are generally kind of okay-ish for many people most of the time in the US these days. But that could change, like if Trump rises to power, and then suddenly even the dispassionate, apathetic youths could wind up enacting violence against political targets.

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Yup, if you believe that fetuses have the moral status of human beings, then abortion is murder, and it's perfectly legitimate to use lethal force to prevent it the same way it would be legitimate to step in and shoot someone that was trying to kill your spouse or even your neighbor. The only real surprise is that this doesn't happen more often. 

Kind of a fascinating bit in that I can't tell if it's total mockery of the shooter or a defense thereof. 

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"Passionate" does not necessarily have anything to do with it.  For obvious reasons, a general belief in the sanctity of human life does not necessarily or always translate into a determination to murder random people; or even to murder specific people.

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Kind of a fascinating bit in that I can't tell if it's total mockery of the shooter or a defense thereof. 

Understanding isn't defense.

That said, I doubt most anti abortionists think through the logical chain Nestor proposed.

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"Passionate" does not necessarily have anything to do with it.  For obvious reasons, a general belief in the sanctity of human life does not necessarily or always translate into a determination to murder random people; or even to murder specific people.

The belief in question is less a general one about sanctity of human life and more a specific one that those who murder babies must be eliminated. The two are sometimes related but not necessarily so (ie people who are opposed to abortion on "fetal personhood" moral grounds, but who are also against capital punishment for murderers of any sort). Where 'passion' comes into play is if someone believes that those who murder babies must be eliminated AND they believe that they're the ones who ought to do it. You're right, this isn't necessarily always the case: some people have the former bit down but are content merely to cheer when others do the messy bits of committing the violent acts. Not quite as passionate. Not crossing the line into criminality. Not possessing the determination to commit murder. And yet ... still a part of this. Because they believe the same thing, and if given the right circumstances they would do the same thing.

Edited by Wise Fool

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