The Second Life of Bloodraven

[Dorian Martell]

Probably, however you have to wonder about the purpose of the warnings. Sixskins wanted more than a second life he wanted a new body. Second life is associated with animals after all. To warg a human is a no no, is Bran the only one that really does it? What if Bloodraven is already doing it, or if it is actually being done to him or gets done to him by someone else? Let's say the Night's King.

The Warnings from Var serve to show exactly how powerful Bran is. Also, nothing in the book has shown bloodraven to be anything other than what he is, which is the last greenseer training the next to last to help save humanity and the world from the encroaching evil that is the cold others from the great white north. If he wanted a second life he has had years to find it. Instead he allows the trees to keep him alive until Bran can reach him 

[AlaskanSandman]

The Warnings from Var serve to show exactly how powerful Bran is. Also, nothing in the book has shown bloodraven to be anything other than what he is, which is the last greenseer training the next to last to help save humanity and the world from the encroaching evil that is the cold others from the great white north. If he wanted a second life he has had years to find it. Instead he allows the trees to keep him alive until Bran can reach him 

One, your last statement, for those that would believe in the 2nd life theory, clearly states who he's waiting for and really why. Its Bran, the most powerful skinchanger (that we know of). Just saying. Or Hodor, who is really strong and already has a broken mind. But aside from who.

Evidence to distrust him. The most obvious time he was blatantly associated as evil and on the side of the Others was by Melisandre. Some one we have been given a pov chapter of, and know for sure she believes what she is doing is right. In her Pov she see's BR and thinks him the Great Other or his Champion. She also goes on to associate sleep with a little death, and dreams the whispering of the Great Other that would lure us into his for ever sleep. 

That is just the most in your face example. 

Many have drawn evidence from Bran's chapters with BR. In which BR even tells Bran that the strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the Earth and that the dark will be his mother's milk (or some such comment). He is on the verge of death and but a corpse, and through Coldhands were given the impression that some one in that cave has similar powers to the Others in regards to raising the dead.

Though on the side of your argument, BR does go on to warn Bran never to seek to bring back the dead (or call them back, cant remember the wording).

Which brings me to a popular thought ive seen, that the CotF created the Others on accident through their magic tampering. Which would explain why BR seems to have elements of Ice and Fire to him. Also why the powers of Ice and Fire seem to link back to the CotF.

 

[Ser Creighton]

The Warnings from Var serve to show exactly how powerful Bran is. Also, nothing in the book has shown bloodraven to be anything other than what he is, which is the last greenseer training the next to last to help save humanity and the world from the encroaching evil that is the cold others from the great white north. If he wanted a second life he has had years to find it. Instead he allows the trees to keep him alive until Bran can reach him 

Yeah Yeah Yoda is a tree instead of living in one. However I would say their are some subtle clues that all is not right in cave of death land.

1. Embrace the darkness, this seems a strange theme for Martin considering he wrote Dying of the light and the title is based of the famous poem which is about the exact opposite of that theme.

2. Martin is not always subtle when he wants you too feel creepy he will make you feel creepy. Cave of Skulls and bones, creepy tree guy and from the very beginning Brans story has been related to horror stories. Bran always liked the scary stories, old Nan tells him the story, and this is not a theme that leaves Bran, like at the Night Fort and relates to the ready the history of several scary stories, he even gets a monster in the form of Coldhands.

3. The last Greenseer yes, yes, but how did he become the last Greenseer? Well Jojen relates that he comes to children in their dreams, which he does to Bran as well. Sick children, and he gives them a choice doesn't he, the ones who are strong, fly or die. Then in a very Freddie Kruger like manner he drops them to their deaths, only Bran was strong enough to fly. Though in a demonstration of power he is not even close to Bloodraven, who can not only enter a persons dream he can control the dream, and even effect their memory at will. Remember the bodies of all those Greenseer's? Those appear to be children Bloodraven has dropped in his search for the last Greenseer.

4. Fevre Dreams, like many things in Martins world the Others appear to be inspired by something he has done before. The Vampires from Fevre dreams. In this case it's just water instead of Blood and the seem to leave the iron behind, no taste for it I guess. But that is the dust in the veins and why Wights are so dry. But the Wight's are similar to the Vampire lords Thralls, which is a reflection of slavery as it is here in Planetos which is a major theme in the series, which is why taking a humans mind is so bad, it's a form of enslavement, and probably the core of the anti slavery taboo in Westeros. It's not just considered bad and immoral, it's an actual taboo. Remember when Martin said the Others were a different race than Humans, that they were not human. Well he said the same thing in Fevre Dreams about the Vampires,  Abner Marsh confronts Joshua, who reveals that he and his friends are vampire hunters using the Fevre Dream as their base of operations to investigate a trail of unusual deaths and disappearances along the mighty river. In time, however, Joshua finally reveals the whole truth: he and his friends are themselves vampires, very humanlike living beings specialized to and recurrently dependent upon hunting humans, characterized by Joshua as "a different race."

Now Joshua was a good guy and known as the Pale King. Why does it matter? Because going back to day one in thrones Martin started dropping hints about a major anti slavery theme just like he did in Fevre Dreams.

5. Parallels, there are some very interesting parallels with Bloodraven and the children. Number 1 is the Warlocks and the Undying who also happen to parallel the Others and and the Wights right down to a giant heart (heart of winter sound familiar). The Weir trees Red leaves and white Wood, and the Shade trees with their Black wood and blue leaves, the red and blue sap of both have the same properties and effects. Little rat men and Squirrel people really not a stretch here. The other parallel is Euron Greyjoy. I know you know I do inverse parallels and that seems to be the case with Euron and Bloodraven. Consider that Euron's black eye is similar to Bloodravens missing eye, then Bloodraven has one red eye and Euron one blue. Euron speaks of flying just like Bloodraven. And then you have the sigil, Black Crown, Black Crow, and one red eye.

Now interesting enough Euron also mirrors Urrathon the Goodbrother, who also happens to be the name of person in Quarth associated with the Night, Glass Candles and the Warlocks. Urrathon the Nightwalker. And of coarse Euron now has the Warlocks serving him as if he was their king. Now we see a parallel to the Night King and the Others. These are subtle clues, but this is no accident, go look at the sigil for Urrathon the Goodbrother, it looks just like Dragon Binder. Now what does Euron want, yes he wants to be King, but what does he tell you he wants and he is actually very focused on her. He wants a bride, he says so, but feels there is only one bride worthy of him, Dany. Why does this matter?

Because the author has drawn a parallel between Euron, Bloodraven and the Night's King. Why? It's very subtle but it is also very interconnected, this does not happen on accident, you have to go out of your way to make a puzzle like this.

6. Crows. There is a very strange theme and we are going to see it with Dany and Crows. Darrio is a Stormcrown and asked Dany to marry him, he wants her power. Euron is a Crowseye and he too wants to marry her and gain her power. Now we get to the wall and we have lots of Crows, of note though are 3 in particular. Bloodraven a Targaryen Lord Commander who draws a parallel to Euron and Euron draws a parallel to the Night's King. If Euron has the Warlocks who draw a parallel to the Others established in the House of the Undying, then what does Bloodraven have, and what does he want? He is so concerned with the Others, he will stop them and he may who knows what direction this will go, it could easily be an inverse. But if he really was interested in stopping them why is he only proactive with Bran? He sought Bran out, but he did not seek out Jon or Dany, the mother of fucking dragons. Why is this strange, well take a look at Mels vision in her chapter. She asks for Azor Ahai. But she only gets Snow. Not exactly true though is it? The only person she recognized was Jon. There are clear signs of Dany and Bran in that vision. Show me your King show me your instrument. And what does she see? Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist. That is probably symbolic of the Others, the towers by the sea, I actually believe we both agree this is Harrenhal right? Similar to Jojen's vision of course and as we see with Mel and Dany, Visions can have similar imagery across the series. Next bodies locked in lust and dragons.

Next a face oh is it Stannis? Stannis is that you? No, that is Bloodraven a thousand red eyes and one. Then next to him the Boy with the wolfs face, much the way Dany see Robb wit ha Wolfs head. Finally we get to Jon and Daggers in the dark.

So when it comes down to it, there are clues about Bloodraven that go beyond Greenseer and fighting the Others, there are clues about his methods, there is the horror story theme in Brans chapters, there are the parallels to Euron and the Night's King. There are clues from other books like Dying of the light and Fevre Dreams. Who's side is her on? I can't actually say, but I can say he is as big a mystery as Jon and that the author has gone to a lot of trouble to place very subtle clues about him, and the Night King in the series.

I mean think about the Euron, Bloodraven, Urrathon, Night's King, clue, it's really a single clue, but it's a puzzle. It is not an accident, it's to many things to be a coincidence. Then Dany and Crows tying her to Crows  and lovers and marriage. Stormcrows, and Crowseye, and the final three Crows. 3 Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch. Two of which she is related too. And the Crows with Blues eye, Euron and Darrio, seem to want to marry her for power. Which one of those remaining three has Blue eyes?

Now the questions for me come down to does Bloodraven know the Night's King seeks his bride? Because that is hinted at with Euron, Darrio and the blue eyed crow theme. And he is way more powerful than Bran. Good or bad he knows more than he is letting on, and is using questionable methods to achieve something. Because lets be honest he has not even stated his goals. All he said was Winter is coming. There was also suppose to be another parallel in the series with Tyrion and the Shrouded lord that got cut do to length, it was when Tyrion almost died like Bran. I think it got cut because it was to big of a clue, but who knows?

So are there clues in the series? For me yes, some of them seem very obvious and others are more subtle, the thing is Bran is also a blue eyed crow. Think about it. One minor difference, crows and ravens. Same family Ravens are larger and travel in pairs, Crows are smaller and travel in flocks. Jon and the watch, Bran and Bloodraven. Royalty is also a theme with the Night's King, Euron, Bloodraven, Jon, and Bran.

   

[AlaskanSandman]

Yeah Yeah Yoda is a tree instead of living in one. However I would say their are some subtle clues that all is not right in cave of death land.

1. Embrace the darkness, this seems a strange theme for Martin considering he wrote Dying of the light and the title is based of the famous poem which is about the exact opposite of that theme.

2. Martin is not always subtle when he wants you too feel creepy he will make you feel creepy. Cave of Skulls and bones, creepy tree guy and from the very beginning Brans story has been related to horror stories. Bran always liked the scary stories, old Nan tells him the story, and this is not a theme that leaves Bran, like at the Night Fort and relates to the ready the history of several scary stories, he even gets a monster in the form of Coldhands.

3. The last Greenseer yes, yes, but how did he become the last Greenseer? Well Jojen relates that he comes to children in their dreams, which he does to Bran as well. Sick children, and he gives them a choice doesn't he, the ones who are strong, fly or die. Then in a very Freddie Kruger like manner he drops them to their deaths, only Bran was strong enough to fly. Though in a demonstration of power he is not even close to Bloodraven, who can not only enter a persons dream he can control the dream, and even effect their memory at will. Remember the bodies of all those Greenseer's? Those appear to be children Bloodraven has dropped in his search for the last Greenseer.

4. Fevre Dreams, like many things in Martins world the Others appear to be inspired by something he has done before. The Vampires from Fevre dreams. In this case it's just water instead of Blood and the seem to leave the iron behind, no taste for it I guess. But that is the dust in the veins and why Wights are so dry. But the Wight's are similar to the Vampire lords Thralls, which is a reflection of slavery as it is here in Planetos which is a major theme in the series, which is why taking a humans mind is so bad, it's a form of enslavement, and probably the core of the anti slavery taboo in Westeros. It's not just considered bad and immoral, it's an actual taboo. Remember when Martin said the Others were a different race than Humans, that they were not human. Well he said the same thing in Fevre Dreams about the Vampires,  Abner Marsh confronts Joshua, who reveals that he and his friends are vampire hunters using the Fevre Dream as their base of operations to investigate a trail of unusual deaths and disappearances along the mighty river. In time, however, Joshua finally reveals the whole truth: he and his friends are themselves vampires, very humanlike living beings specialized to and recurrently dependent upon hunting humans, characterized by Joshua as "a different race."

Now Joshua was a good guy and known as the Pale King. Why does it matter? Because going back to day one in thrones Martin started dropping hints about a major anti slavery theme just like he did in Fevre Dreams.

5. Parallels, there are some very interesting parallels with Bloodraven and the children. Number 1 is the Warlocks and the Undying who also happen to parallel the Others and and the Wights right down to a giant heart (heart of winter sound familiar). The Weir trees Red leaves and white Wood, and the Shade trees with their Black wood and blue leaves, the red and blue sap of both have the same properties and effects. Little rat men and Squirrel people really not a stretch here. The other parallel is Euron Greyjoy. I know you know I do inverse parallels and that seems to be the case with Euron and Bloodraven. Consider that Euron's black eye is similar to Bloodravens missing eye, then Bloodraven has one red eye and Euron one blue. Euron speaks of flying just like Bloodraven. And then you have the sigil, Black Crown, Black Crow, and one red eye.

Now interesting enough Euron also mirrors Urrathon the Goodbrother, who also happens to be the name of person in Quarth associated with the Night, Glass Candles and the Warlocks. Urrathon the Nightwalker. And of coarse Euron now has the Warlocks serving him as if he was their king. Now we see a parallel to the Night King and the Others. These are subtle clues, but this is no accident, go look at the sigil for Urrathon the Goodbrother, it looks just like Dragon Binder. Now what does Euron want, yes he wants to be King, but what does he tell you he wants and he is actually very focused on her. He wants a bride, he says so, but feels there is only one bride worthy of him, Dany. Why does this matter?

Because the author has drawn a parallel between Euron, Bloodraven and the Night's King. Why? It's very subtle but it is also very interconnected, this does not happen on accident, you have to go out of your way to make a puzzle like this.

6. Crows. There is a very strange theme and we are going to see it with Dany and Crows. Darrio is a Stormcrown and asked Dany to marry him, he wants her power. Euron is a Crowseye and he too wants to marry her and gain her power. Now we get to the wall and we have lots of Crows, of note though are 3 in particular. Bloodraven a Targaryen Lord Commander who draws a parallel to Euron and Euron draws a parallel to the Night's King. If Euron has the Warlocks who draw a parallel to the Others established in the House of the Undying, then what does Bloodraven have, and what does he want? He is so concerned with the Others, he will stop them and he may who knows what direction this will go, it could easily be an inverse. But if he really was interested in stopping them why is he only proactive with Bran? He sought Bran out, but he did not seek out Jon or Dany, the mother of fucking dragons. Why is this strange, well take a look at Mels vision in her chapter. She asks for Azor Ahai. But she only gets Snow. Not exactly true though is it? The only person she recognized was Jon. There are clear signs of Dany and Bran in that vision. Show me your King show me your instrument. And what does she see? Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist. That is probably symbolic of the Others, the towers by the sea, I actually believe we both agree this is Harrenhal right? Similar to Jojen's vision of course and as we see with Mel and Dany, Visions can have similar imagery across the series. Next bodies locked in lust and dragons.

Next a face oh is it Stannis? Stannis is that you? No, that is Bloodraven a thousand red eyes and one. Then next to him the Boy with the wolfs face, much the way Dany see Robb wit ha Wolfs head. Finally we get to Jon and Daggers in the dark.

So when it comes down to it, there are clues about Bloodraven that go beyond Greenseer and fighting the Others, there are clues about his methods, there is the horror story theme in Brans chapters, there are the parallels to Euron and the Night's King. There are clues from other books like Dying of the light and Fevre Dreams. Who's side is her on? I can't actually say, but I can say he is as big a mystery as Jon and that the author has gone to a lot of trouble to place very subtle clues about him, and the Night King in the series.

I mean think about the Euron, Bloodraven, Urrathon, Night's King, clue, it's really a single clue, but it's a puzzle. It is not an accident, it's to many things to be a coincidence. Then Dany and Crows tying her to Crows  and lovers and marriage. Stormcrows, and Crowseye, and the final three Crows. 3 Lord Commanders of the Night's Watch. Two of which she is related too. And the Crows with Blues eye, Euron and Darrio, seem to want to marry her for power. Which one of those remaining three has Blue eyes?

Now the questions for me come down to does Bloodraven know the Night's King seeks his bride? Because that is hinted at with Euron, Darrio and the blue eyed crow theme. And he is way more powerful than Bran. Good or bad he knows more than he is letting on, and is using questionable methods to achieve something. Because lets be honest he has not even stated his goals. All he said was Winter is coming. There was also suppose to be another parallel in the series with Tyrion and the Shrouded lord that got cut do to length, it was when Tyrion almost died like Bran. I think it got cut because it was to big of a clue, but who knows?

So are there clues in the series? For me yes, some of them seem very obvious and others are more subtle, the thing is Bran is also a blue eyed crow. Think about it. One minor difference, crows and ravens. Same family Ravens are larger and travel in pairs, Crows are smaller and travel in flocks. Jon and the watch, Bran and Bloodraven. Royalty is also a theme with the Night's King, Euron, Bloodraven, Jon, and Bran.

   

You bring up alot of really good points. Some of what you bring up leads me to ask you a question i keep wondering my self. Could this whole Fire and Ice sides both lead back to the same source? The Children of the Forest? Especially knowing some of Martins other works like and Seven Times Never Kill Man. Could allllll of this just be vision from the Children to make us fight each other to their greater end?

Also, you make some connections between Euron, Crows and BR. Ive been working under some research that leads me to the same connections but deeper, to the Sea, to Garth the Green Haired. Look back at sigils like you mention, (I have a thread currently attempting called Signs and Sigils, House Secrets or Lost Knowledge) House GreyIron depicts a Green Bearded and Haired merman with a crown on his head. Now, look at House Manderly (from the Reach) who even have a river (Mander named after them, or them after it) who depicts a Green Haired and Bearded Merman with a trident on their sigil. Now look at descriptions about Garth the Green Haired. I suggest that Garth is the Merling King. Ruler of the Seas and any where water  or rivers ran. Euron and the Ironborn tracing to him along with the Andals, another sea faring people.

Check out Hugor Hill. Promised lands far away and said to have had 44 sons. There are 44 Iron Islands. 31 in the main group and 13 in a smaller group with the largest number 7. Plenty of hints to link the Iron born to Hugor and the Andals. If Hugor and Hukko are another rendering of Huzhor Amai (son of the Last Fisher Queen) and another rendering of Azor Ahai.... we have a pretty deep connection that i think actually makes alot of sense.

[aryagonnakill#2]

You know, I've never thought anything about him resurfacing at the same time the possible (I think Aegon is, unknowingly) Blackfyre pretender returns. It makes sense. Why would GRRM build up the entire Blackfyre rebellion story line, which I totally love, if not to use it in the future. My only problem with the theory is the show. In GOT, the Blackfyre storyline is played into at all. If the makers of GOT know the ending of the books, why haven't they worked the story line in if it isn't important?

Were not really suppose to talk about the show, and the fact is they are so different that we really don't need to.  In this case the show has eliminated the Aegon plot all together, take from that what you will, I don't think anyone is really surprised about the connotation. In any event, without Aegon there is no need for a Blackfyre story.

[Maester Feelgood]

It's definitely possible that BR is exactly what he claims to be and that his time amongst the children alongside the wisdom of the trees changed him, but there's going to be some type of twist. I say this simply because very few of George's characters are that uncomplicated and simply wish to save mankind. We know BR to be a complicated man through the expanded novels and histories but if you evaluate BR through the lens of the asoiaf novels alone he's fairly single minded. I think George may have some twists in store for BR, Bran and the cave. Why choose a man like Bloodraven as emissary for Bran and not one of the Children of the forest.

Many characters and especially villians use the justification "saving the world." Yet, what they usually mean is to destroy the broken world and then remake it.

BR just reminds me of other characters who use the old and feeble persona as a means to hide their true intentions. Qyburn acts and seems grandfatherly, he's a healer and yet he spends his nights in a leather torture apron. The Kindly Man of the House of Black and White seems wise and worldly, yet he is an assassin for hire in an order which worships death. Bloodraven just fits that profile in many ways. Even more so if one were to ascribe to the Jojen paste theory, feeding Bran one of his friends unknowingly for any reason is grizzly stuff, even to "save the world."

Then, tie in all the theories about Quaithe being Sheria or Mel being connected to BR or just Mel being connected to Sheria who Bloodraven loved and so on.... You can see that he may have many reasons to want to walk the Earth once again. What drove the 77 year old Lord commander of the Nights Watch North on a ranging all those years ago? The list goes on....

[Maester Feelgood]

Were not really suppose to talk about the show, and the fact is they are so different that we really don't need to.  In this case the show has eliminated the Aegon plot all together, take from that what you will, I don't think anyone is really surprised about the connotation. In any event, without Aegon there is no need for a Blackfyre story.

It's true, unless we're in that particular subforum of threads, the general section is designed to disregard the show. Although, I can understand how that might be difficult when discussing Aegon VI and his importance. D&D seem to be disregarding him, forcing us to speculate on his impact on George's series as a whole, I'm guilty of it like most of us. Yet, there are far too many episodes left to judge where they are going, or to draw any real conclusions. The books remain my primary source of speculation, especially when you consider the botched Bloodraven scene of season 4, complete with the Children of the forest shooting magic fireballs and the directors comments about budgeting. Only obscured speculation can be mined from the show and yet truths can be found in the source material. Let's stick to the books, even though it can be limiting at times.

[AlaskanSandman]

 

It's true, unless we're in that particular subforum of threads, the general section is designed to disregard the show. Although, I can understand how that might be difficult when discussing Aegon VI and his importance. D&D seem to be disregarding him, forcing us to speculate on his impact on George's series as a whole, I'm guilty of it like most of us. Yet, there are far too many episodes left to judge where they are going, or to draw any real conclusions. The books remain my primary source of speculation, especially when you consider the botched Bloodraven scene of season 4, complete with the Children of the forest shooting magic fireballs and the directors comments about budgeting. Only obscured speculation can be mined from the show and yet truths can be found in the source material. Let's stick to the books, even though it can be limiting at times.

Yeep. Otherwise i could use the show to prove Dragon Steel is indeed Valyrian Steel for instance. One book readers are still left to wonder about. 

[sarah.jenice]

He will live his second life in a tree, like the rest of the greenseers 

 

I lean toward this. Hasn't he earned his retirement yet? 

[Maester Feelgood]

I lean toward this. Hasn't he earned his retirement yet? 

You can almost feel bad for him at that point, he's basically rotted down to half a functional brain, an eye, one lung and possibly the use of an arm. He's 75% dead and yet George refuses to pull the plug on him. He definitely deserves retirement as you called it but death is scary.

Master Aemon was only 25 years younger than Bloodraven at 102, already blind and he still sits upon the Cinnamon Wind speaking of how he fears what's beyond the veil of death as I think he calls it. He also wishes it were him going to Dany to see the dragons and to be her advisor, it even rejuvenates him for a time. He even says things like if "only I were just 10 years younger," iirc. I think a lot of people would do a lot more unimaginable things for just a few more days in this world. Maybe Bloodraven has made his peace, maybe not. He's definitely still working toward something, and not quitting till something makes him.

[SevasTra82]

There are still too many story threads associated with BR for him to die out.  I still believe there will be a revelation with his Mel (who I firmly believe is his daughter).  There is still much interaction that needs to happen with Bran as well.  I also believe that he'll be pivotable in whatever happens with The Others.  I honestly think he'll eventually kick the bucket, but it will probably be near the end of the series and when Bran is ready to take over for him.

[Maester Feelgood]

There are still too many story threads associated with BR for him to die out.  I still believe there will be a revelation with his Mel (who I firmly believe is his daughter).  There is still much interaction that needs to happen with Bran as well.  I also believe that he'll be pivotable in whatever happens with The Others.  I honestly think he'll eventually kick the bucket, but it will probably be near the end of the series and when Bran is ready to take over for him.

Something has to happen, people seem to be pretty evenly split on Bloodraven and the manner of his eventual departure. I was hoping more people would get on the skinchanging Hodor wagon but that was always a bit crackpot to begin with.

Bloodraven will never leave the cave, at least not in his body. But one would think that regardless of Bran staying or leaving, he will eventually have to send Jojen (should he be alive) but more likely Meera and Hodor back to civilization. I suppose that Hodor's fate is just intriguing to me.

After going on this incredible journey, once all is said and done, will Hodor just go back to being a stable hand? Stay on as Bran's personal servant slash occasional puppet? Hodor deserves some type of ending, happy or otherwise and an explanation of who exactly he is? What would Hodor want if you could even ask him? All interesting questions.

What if a second life is more complicated than we think? Bran can sense Hodor when skinchanging him. He describes Hodor as going into this deep dark secret place where Bran then speaks to him, attempting to offer comfort. He says things like "I'll give it back" and tells him not to be afraid. Then you have quotes about being in a wolf too long or after a long while into your second life only the wolf remains. It stands to reason that a second life in Hodor could work the same, eventually only the Hodor remains. A human to human second life may end up being a merging of minds more than a permanent controlling as Varamyr must have thought.

So if Bloodraven did go into Hodor upon his death perhaps he would only be himself alone for a time and little by little Hodor would gain more control. Thus a sort of new mind would eventually be born, like a Hodor 2.0.

All we know of the concept is "abomination!" courtesy of Haggon's lessons to Varamyr. I realize that I'm going down the rabbit hole here on a tinfoil parachute but that SSM about Hodor eventually speaking and wondering how Bran's secret skinchanging of Hodor will play out gnaws at me.

[AlaskanSandman]

 

Something has to happen, people seem to be pretty evenly split on Bloodraven and the manner of his eventual departure. I was hoping more people would get on the skinchanging Hodor wagon but that was always a bit crackpot to begin with.

 

Bloodraven will never leave the cave, at least not in his body. But one would think that regardless of Bran staying or leaving, he will eventually have to send Jojen (should he be alive) but more likely Meera and Hodor back to civilization. I suppose that Hodor's fate is just intriguing to me.

 

After going on this incredible journey, once all is said and done, will Hodor just go back to being a stable hand? Stay on as Bran's personal servant slash occasional puppet? Hodor deserves some type of ending, happy or otherwise and an explanation of who exactly he is? What would Hodor want if you could even ask him? All interesting questions.

 

What if a second life is more complicated than we think? Bran can sense Hodor when skinchanging him. He describes Hodor as going into this deep dark secret place where Bran then speaks to him, attempting to offer comfort. He says things like "I'll give it back" and tells him not to be afraid. Then you have quotes about being in a wolf too long or after a long while into your second life only the wolf remains. It stands to reason that a second life in Hodor could work the same, eventually only the Hodor remains. A human to human second life may end up being a merging of minds more than a permanent controlling as Varamyr must have thought.

 

So if Bloodraven did go into Hodor upon his death perhaps he would only be himself alone for a time and little by little Hodor would gain more control. Thus a sort of new mind would eventually be born, like a Hodor 2.0.

 

All we know of the concept is "abomination!" courtesy of Haggon's lessons to Varamyr. I realize that I'm going down the rabbit hole here on a tinfoil parachute but that SSM about Hodor eventually speaking and wondering how Bran's secret skinchanging of Hodor will play out gnaws at me.

Makes me questionable with Hodor. He doesn't fight Bran at all. This is the one thing that makes me wonder if Hodor isn't who he's after. Hodor sounds so broken of mind that a strong enough Tele might be able to completely take over with out fear of Hodor ever taking over. Idk, i really hope Hodor picks him out of his little chair and breaks him if it come down to that though. 

[Maester Feelgood]

Makes me questionable with Hodor. He doesn't fight Bran at all. This is the one thing that makes me wonder if Hodor isn't who he's after. Hodor sounds so broken of mind that a strong enough Tele might be able to completely take over with out fear of Hodor ever taking over. Idk, i really hope Hodor picks him out of his little chair and breaks him if it come down to that though. 

I know what you mean, no one wants to anything bad happen to Hodor. He's a likeable character who crossed half the continent in the worst conditions just because his friend needed him to, he's the definition of selflessness.

It'll be interesting to find out what Hodor means and if he was born slow-witted or through emotional or physical trauma. I don't recall if there was any reason definitively stated for his single word vocabulary.

He's definitely not stupid though, he understands what being said to him and can perform his duties competently. He's just the prototypical gentle giant, he reminds me a bit of Lennie from Of Mice and Men in that way, too good for this world. I don't think he squeezed the life out of some kid or anything that blatantly from Steinbeck, he's just an innocent at heart and this world isn't particularly kind to innocents or innocence in general.

I have a theory that the word "hodor" may have actually been a slurring of the term "hold her" from when he was much younger, perhaps watching Nan take care of the children. It makes sense that he would like babies and might of asked to hold one. Or maybe it was a kitten or a puppy and someone said "Now be careful when you hold her." Then Hodor just replied "holdher" The possibilities are endless even in the unlikely event that I were correct.

The word does seem to represent a happy memory to him. Perhaps before some accident befell him or he just never spoke much and it's a vocalization of his "happy place." He hodor's about when he's in a good mood and he sort of chants hodor when he's scared. That's the impression I got anyway.

Still, Bran needs to let go of skinchanging Hodor to really move on and accept his paralysis. It's like when he's Hodor he has his legs back, and he always carries his sword exploring caves and pretending to be a Knight. Bran is essentially acting out his childhood wish that now represents the life he might of had before he fell from the broken tower.

It's strange that Bloodraven hasn't said something about it if it's an abomination. BR said that he saw Bran's first dream, watched his first step watched everything he's ever done or dreamed but in the cave when Bran's greenseeing BR has him tell him what he saw. Why can't he see these things alongside him now, the way he shared his dream just before he came out of his coma. Why is he represented to Bran as a three-eyed crow and not raven? I get that he took the Black but still.... Why did he seem surprised when Bran asked if he was the three-eyed crow? He told him to fly as he was and even pecked a hole in the middle of his figurative head? I guess I just don't trust the guy.

[Ser Creighton]

You bring up alot of really good points. Some of what you bring up leads me to ask you a question i keep wondering my self. Could this whole Fire and Ice sides both lead back to the same source? The Children of the Forest? Especially knowing some of Martins other works like and Seven Times Never Kill Man. Could allllll of this just be vision from the Children to make us fight each other to their greater end?

Also, you make some connections between Euron, Crows and BR. Ive been working under some research that leads me to the same connections but deeper, to the Sea, to Garth the Green Haired. Look back at sigils like you mention, (I have a thread currently attempting called Signs and Sigils, House Secrets or Lost Knowledge) House GreyIron depicts a Green Bearded and Haired merman with a crown on his head. Now, look at House Manderly (from the Reach) who even have a river (Mander named after them, or them after it) who depicts a Green Haired and Bearded Merman with a trident on their sigil. Now look at descriptions about Garth the Green Haired. I suggest that Garth is the Merling King. Ruler of the Seas and any where water  or rivers ran. Euron and the Ironborn tracing to him along with the Andals, another sea faring people.

Check out Hugor Hill. Promised lands far away and said to have had 44 sons. There are 44 Iron Islands. 31 in the main group and 13 in a smaller group with the largest number 7. Plenty of hints to link the Iron born to Hugor and the Andals. If Hugor and Hukko are another rendering of Huzhor Amai (son of the Last Fisher Queen) and another rendering of Azor Ahai.... we have a pretty deep connection that i think actually makes alot of sense.

Hahaha, yeah I have gone down that road before actually, it's been awhile but I believe back then I had been looking at inconsistencies in house Mudd and the Iron Islands. Back in the Corn Code days I did all kinds of stuff with numbers and sigils. 3 being the core set, later I wrote the inverse parallel theory, which deals with inverse symbolism in the series. Take 44 a perfect set, twins if you will. Made up of 13 and 31 which are a mirror image of the other. Generally I refer to this as the sun and moon, or Dany and Jon, but really it can be about anyone or anything like the inverted colors of House Baratheon and House Greyjoy, two major rivals in the series.

There is a major theme about twins but it tends to revolve around symbolism, and the twins is not a bad symbol of that, it's two castles right? And in the middle of those castles exists the water tower. Which is one of the three components of sun and moon or unity of opposition. Ice + fire equals water. You will see this theme appear in the series. Sunfyre fights Moondancer, but how does it end? With a child being carried off by a Waters.

Anyway getting back to the Andals, so you have the Andals and as you note they seem to be connected to the Iron Islands. But there is some strange inconsistencies in the history between the First Men and the Andals. Also the Manderly's, part of the trick is figuring out what is history and what Martin is doing to create an image and if they also interconnect. Wylla Manderly is a great example. A young woman who is loyal to the Starks and is noted for her Green hair.  But her hair is not really Green, she is a blonde with with blue eyes and I am guessing she being used to create a clue about Wylla the Wet nurse of house Dayne who are known for blue eyes and blonde hair, she also seems loyal to the Starks.

Ok so house Greyiron, if I recall correctly and forgive me but I have not talked about his in a long time. But looking at the symbolism, the Andals were known as the men of the Axe. So going to Trystifer IV of house Mudd the last First men king of the riverlands. He was victorious in 99 victories against the Andals. There you see the twin symbolism, much like 44, going further, it was 7 Andal Kings, of note was Armistice Vance, look at the Vance sigils. The twin theme is heavy, as well as the Dragon theme. Green and Black and Green and Black are natural oppositions in the series, hence the Greens and the Blacks.

House Greyiron goes back over 5000 years, and of course Urrathon was one of the kings, and my guess is Martin is using that story to parallel Euron to an extent as Euron is tied to Urrathon. Now after Torgon and his son Urragon depose Urrathon, Urragon eventually ends up king. Later he wants his great Nephew to inherit the throne but there is a stink and Urron goes and kills everyone at the kings moot with his Axe men and that took place around the arrival of the Andals. The Men of the Iron Islands are also known for their Axes, just look at Asha and Vic. 

So here we see sets of Axe Men around the arrival of the Andals. But then something strange occurs, the Grey King and Yig. The Grey King predates the Andals by thousands of years but it was the Andals who became famed for chopping down the weirwoods with their axes. Yet Yig the pale flesh eating tree was clearly a weirwood. The trees we know are used for sacrifice, at least in the past and we have scene human parts shoved into their mouths. Not that they get up and start eating people, but historically speaking the myth seems to come from some sort of weirwood ritual involving human sacrifice. We see hints of it with the Wildlings at White Tree and in Brans vision in the Weirwood cave. Not to mention all the death and bones in that cave, including human skulls.

After that I started tracking some of the axes on sigils with historical references, and found house Cerwyn which of course has Cerwyn of the mirror shield, someone from the past Martin specified. But of greater note was house Dustin. Now this is a very famous house, twin axes and a crown. These are the kings of the first men and the king of the barrows. Barrows of course are tied to the dead, so in a sense you get kings of the dead and first men. There were other things like the round towers at Winterfell and Stormsend, as well which should be post Andals. Most of what I did predated the world books and some of the stories of course have been updated since. So is Martin creating a Juxtaposition using the Andals and the Iron Born? Or is this some strange historical screw up in which the Andals have been around for a much longer time.

This also brings up a strange problem for me, it is said that the First Men killed half the Children of the forest and the Andals the other half. Basically the human race committed genocide on the children and the children who are a soon to be dead race are helping the humans because? They are just so good that what few of them where not slaughtered and have been in hiding for thousands of years, just don't like the others? Which seems strange since the trees they worship seem to be used for not only sacrifice, but they seem to drink moonlight. Read the passage with Bran at the Night Fort.

Some strange symbolism and history there as well. The Night fort went to war with Snowgate 300 years before the arrival of Aegon. That castle would later be torn down so Queensgate could be built. The Night's King home and the Targaryen Queens Castle.

Why does the Night Fort have a heavy Andal horror story history that we see repeating. The Rat cook and the Andal king, House Manderly and the Freys of the Riverlands. King Sherrit who called a curse down on the Andals, and Mad Axe. At times it almost seems as if the watch went to war with the Andals.