Jump to content

Mistakes/Contradictions in the books?


Magnar of Skagos

Recommended Posts

Looking at the brothers of the Night's Watch, and others at Castle Black. Maybe Melisandre's memory is not what it once was:

the queen’s man she knew as Alf of Runnymudd, one of the first to exchange his seven false gods for the truth of R’hllor.(ADwD, Ch.31 Melisandre I).

OTHELL YARWYCK, First Builder,

SPARE BOOT, HALDER, ALBETT, KEGS, ALF OF RUNNYMUDD, builders,(ADwD, Appendix)

Then there is Toad. You know Toad? Toad of the Night's Watch? Real name Todder, an ugly boy with a voice like piss poured over a fart, called Jon Snow's mother a whore and got his head bashed in? Gave Sam a hard time too.  Later retrieved Jon from the road between Castle Black and Moles Town, obliging him to keep his vow to the night's watch. A ranger, but it was Sam that got to go on the Great Ranging, while Toad stayed back at Castle Black with Pyp, under Bowen Marsh. Toad who was not afraid of speaking up in favour of the Old Gods, pointing out to Lord Commander Snow that Melisandre did not leave their Gods alone, and had made the wildlings burn Weirwood branches too.? 

He has made an appearance in every book but Feast for Crows. Sam even dreams of him. Know how many times he is mentioned in the appendices. Yeah, that is right. And who the hell is Elron.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Two for Tyrion

Quote

he began to hear voices, muffled and indistinct at first, then clearer. He listened more closely. Two of his father’s guardsmen were joking about the Imp’s whore, saying how sweet it would be to fuck her, and how bad she must want a real cock in place of the dwarf’s stunted little thing. “Most like it’s got a crook in it,” said Lum. That led him into a discussion of how Tyrion would die on the morrow. “He’ll weep like a woman and beg for mercy, you’ll see,” Lum insisted. Lester figured he’d face the axe brave as a lion, being a Lannister, and he was willing to bet his new boots on it. “Ah, shit in your boots,” said Lum, “you know they’d never fit these feet o’mine. Tell you what, if I win you can scour my bloody mail for a fortnight.”

Quote

If Lum and Lester emerged from wherever they were talking, he’d never have time to reload, but at least he’d take one down to hell with him. Lum, if he had a choice. You’ll have to clean your own mail, Lum. You lose.

(ASoS, Ch.77 Tyrion XI)

shouldn't that be Lester?

Lum wins death, and all bets are off.

*

Quote

 He resumed his whistling. “Do you know this song?” he asked.
“You hear it here and there, in inns and whorehouses.”
Myrish. ‘The Seasons of My Love.’ Sweet and sad, if you understand the words. The first girl I ever bedded used to sing it, and I’ve never been able to put it out of my head.”

(AGoT, Ch.42 Tyrion VI)
 
The words are in the Common tongue.

Catelyn comprehends the meaning, even before she hears them

Quote

the faint chords of some love song drifting up from the yard, so sad and sweet. “I loved a maid as red as autumn,” Rymund sang, “with sunset in her hair.

(ACoK, Ch.55 Catelyn VII)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What really drives me nuts is that Westeros can't bring themselves to believe in the Others, but when undead fire wights like Beric and Stoneheart show up, no one even blinks an eye.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

What really drives me nuts is that Westeros can't bring themselves to believe in the Others, but when undead fire wights like Beric and Stoneheart show up, no one even blinks an eye.

And giants. I mean, we have Eddard Stark musing

Quote

Robert Baratheon and his brothers were all big men, as was the Hound, and back at Winterfell there was a simpleminded stableboy named Hodor who dwarfed them all, but the knight they called the Mountain That Rides would have towered over Hodor. He was well over seven feet tall, closer to eight, with massive shoulders and arms thick as the trunks of small trees.

(AGoT, Ch.30 Eddard VII)

The word 'giant' never seriously occurs to him. I suppose he never met Shagga. But he has seen the Greatjon and the Smalljon. Giants are just in Old Nan's stories. He is very dismissive of Old Nan's stories, even though his Brother is head ranger, has gone as far beyond the wall as any man. And they are forever discussing their plans to fight Mance Raydar and re-populate the Gift.  If Eddard never suspects, you would think Benjen might clue him in. It makes me wonder how well Benjen knew the North, and what else the Southrons dismiss as perfectly normal.

Sometimes I think he puts lines like "Kevan Lannister had a strong suspicion of just who this Ser Robert really was beneath that gleaming white armor." (ADwD, Epilogue) just to invite a "No shit Sherlock" from the reader.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting thread. I've read here of four shifting eye colours:

  • Renly: green / blue
  • Val: grey / blue
  • Rheagal: gold / bronze
  • Qyburn: brown / bright blue

And of course, the wights, for the obvious reason.

This seems too many for mistake, particularly Qyburn for whom the change can't be explained as a trick of the light. Also, Qyburn appears in the later books, when you'd think the author would be careful not to repeat earlier errors.

Eyes are an ideal place to put a colour code, as long as the author is not too fussed about being consistently realistic (he really isn't).

All the humans have their eye colour changed to blue. We've seen enough of the colour blue in the books to associate it with death and disaster. Possibly, then, all these people are coming close to death:

  • Renly dies.
  • Qyburn starts practicing necromancy.
  • We've not heard the end of Val's story yet.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah, thank you @Lew Theobald - I will have to look up these.

I think Aegon's eyes are usually described as blue, but appear purple in twilight - so the trick of the light is explicitly mentioned; I don't know if that makes a difference. I'm tempted to parse it as 'Aegon is not a Targ, but will appear as a Targ in the approach to the Long Night'.

Lady Stoneheart is an interesting case - her eyes might tell us something about fire wights; though not as foreshadowng this time, as the change took place after death.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

As to the wights:  the ice zombies have blue eyes, but IIRC it is also hinted that Lady Stoneheart (now a fire zombie, I guess) has grey eyes.  Catelyn's eyes used to be blue.

Stoneheart now has red eyes. I think you're remembering her grey clothes which are brought up at least twice?

AFFC Brienne VIII

The woman in grey hissed through her fingers. Her eyes were two red pits burning in the shadows. She spoke again.

Another of the outlaws stepped forward, a younger man in a greasy sheepskin jerkin. In his hand was Oathkeeper. "This says it is." His voice was frosted with the accents of the north. He slid the sword from its scabbard and placed it in front of Lady Stoneheart. In the light from the firepit the red and black ripples in the blade almost seem to move, but the woman in grey had eyes only for the pommel: a golden lion's head, with ruby eyes that shone like two red stars.

Not to get too off topic, but just noticed that Stoneheart's eyes are compared to the eyes of the lion in the pommel of Oathkeeper.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've checked, and Daario, Darkstar and YG are all given in-world, realistic explanations for the shade of their eyes. (Still colour-coded, no doubt, but no need to take notice unless you like that sort of thing.)

  • Daario's eyes are blue, appearing almost purple when his beard is dyed purple. Described several times, but only as almost purple
  • Darkstar has purple eyes, appearing black with the setting sun behind him.
  • Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pale, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple.

In contrast, no explanation is given for change in eye colour for Renly, Qyburn and Val. In Qyburn's case, no realistic explanation is possible.

I think the change to blue signifies resurrection - Qyburn is raising the dead, Renly rose again as 'Renly's Ghost', and Val is up against the Others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's other mistakes that work perfectly well as metaphor - in fact, not mistakes, but a touch of surrealism creeping into the books. (And really, it's not such a big step in a story already loaded with so much foreshadowing.)

  • Jeyne Westerling goes from a 'fertile' appearance (wide hips) to a 'barren' appearance (narrow hips) after the death of Rob. It's a convoluted way of saying she's not pregnant.
  • Joff's sword is called 'Lion's Tooth', but Arya cannot remember this, because to her, Joffrey is a toothless lion. He still has teeth for Sansa, however.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dude makes mistakes...

Quote

JULY 14, 2011

UNION SQUARE SIGNING

[Note: This report refers to the question of Jeyne Westerlings hips, described by Catelyn as being "good" for the purposes of having children, and described by Jaime as "narrow". This seeming contradiction has sparked theories that the girl Jaime sees and is told is Jeyne is in fact an impostor.]

I actually asked GRRM about this at the union square signing. When he spoke he said some mismatched descriptions are him doing it on purpose, and some are mistakes. And the mistakes are really unfortunate because it detracts from when he does it on purpose.

When we approached the stage for signings we had the chance to ask a quick question, and he told me that that the hips were a mistake unfortunately.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/10068

Quote

There was a long discussion about mistakes and inconsistencies. He used the eyes changing color example, and also mentioned receiving an email about horses changing sex. George gets frustrated when there's mistakes in the books--not just because mistakes can be embarrassing, though. He said there are inconsistencies in the books that are NOT mistakes. He believes in the "unreliable narrator" -- you can't always trust what people say because they might be remembering it wrong, or you get two different stories depending on who's doing the telling. He feels that mistakes such as eye color changes can distract from the planned inconsistencies, making them less effective.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2005/05

I submit that the inconsistency between Renly's eye color in Game and Clash was nothing more than a mistake...

Quote

His companion was a man near twenty whose armor was steel plate of a deep forest-green. He was the handsomest man Sansa had ever set eyes upon; tall and powerfully made, with jet-black hair that fell to his shoulders and framed a clean-shaven face, and laughing green eyes to match his armor. Cradled under one arm was an antlered helm, its magnificent rack shimmering in gold.

Sansa I, Game 15

Quote

In their midst, watching and laughing with his young queen by his side, sat a ghost in a golden crown.

Small wonder the lords gather around him with such fervor, she thought, he is Robert come again. Renly was handsome as Robert had been handsome; long of limb and broad of shoulder, with the same coal-black hair, fine and straight, the same deep blue eyes, the same easy smile. The slender circlet around his brows seemed to suit him well. It was soft gold, a ring of roses exquisitely wrought; at the front lifted a stag's head of dark green jade, adorned with golden eyes and golden antlers.

The crowned stag decorated the king's green velvet tunic as well, worked in gold thread upon his chest; the Baratheon sigil in the colors of Highgarden. The girl who shared the high seat with him was also of Highgarden: his young queen, Margaery, daughter to Lord Mace Tyrell. Their marriage was the mortar that held the great southron alliance together, Catelyn knew. Renly was one-and-twenty, the girl no older than Robb, very pretty, with a doe's soft eyes and a mane of curling brown hair that fell about her shoulders in lazy ringlets. Her smile was shy and sweet.

I am less sure about Qyburn, but I expect the inconsistency between Qyburn's eye color in Storm and Feast was a mistake as well...

Catelyn II, Clash 22

Quote

Qyburn did not look a monster, Jaime thought. He was spare and soft-spoken, with warm brown eyes.

Jaime IV, Storm 31

Quote

"Your Grace," said Shortear, "this here claims he was a maester."

The man bowed low. "How may I serve Your Grace?"

His face was vaguely familiar, though Cersei could not place him. Old, but not so old as Pycelle. This one has some strength in him still. He was tall, though slightly stooped, with crinkles around his bold blue eyes. His throat is nak**ed. "You wear no maester's chain."

"It was taken from me. My name is Qyburn, if it please Your Grace. I treated your brother's hand."

"His stump, you mean." She remembered him now. He had come with Jaime from Harrenhal.

Cersei I, Feast 3

I could not find any description of Rhaegal's eyes as gold. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Dude makes mistakes...

<snip>

Too many mistakes to believe, from an author who pays a lot of attention to colour and eyes. Daario's 'almost purple' eyes are described about three times, for heaven's sake. And the quote on Young Griff's eyes - isn't that a bit over the top for mere description?

I don't follow SSM's, or place much faith in them - if the man can make mistakes in a book he has been perfecting for five years or more, then how many more mistakes will he make when put on the spot by a persistent questioner? Not to mention any misunderstandings/errors by the person actually reporting the conversation. In fact we know that SSM's can be misleading, because they are wrong about the sword Lion's Tooth.

Besides, GRRM wouldn't want to give spoilers to his own books, so he's entitled to flannel at bit. Did he ever say he wanted this stuff to be taken as canon?

Having said all that, I do wonder if Rhaegal's eyes are a mistake (the quote's at the bottom of page 7 of this thread). It comes just after Dany describes Drogo crowning Viserys with molten gold. Deliberate echo? A written stutter? Another colour code? Who can tell? The dragons are getting a lot of description at this time - fighting each other, scratching people - some of it's probably foreshadowing.

3 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

In literature, both realistic and magical events can be symbolic.  But to my mind, if a realistic explanation is impossible, then mere symbolism is an inadequate explanation.  Is something supernatural going on as well?

<snip>

It's a question we should be asking. At this stage it could go any direction.

  • All the 'mistakes' could be corrected in later editions, or
  • More magic could be introduced to explain Qyburn's eyes etc, or
  • It could become plain that GRRM is fooling around with the story in a way that could become clever and consistent by the end.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

Do not a lot of these inconsistencies and mistakes in observation tend to involve Sansa?  Maybe there's a theme there.  Maybe Sansa is a poor observer.  She has, on the one hand, an ability to idealize people, and see them differently than they truly are.  And, on the other hand, she has the defense mechanism of being able to "look without seeing" at things that traumatize or frighten her.

If we cannot trust Sansa's eyes, then GRRM may be setting us up for a fake-out, where things are not as they seem, especially when seen from Sansa's POV.

That would be a fun one, and clever too. Bran had his eyes opened by BR, Jon by Bran, Arya by Syrio (broadly speaking); and Ghost had his eyes open before any of the other puppies; but I can't think of anything comparable for Sansa. People might see different things after their eyes have been 'opened'. And then there are the one-eyed/odd-eyed people - perhaps they see only half the picture.

My own current favourite theory is that the author wants his readers to see him as a teller of tales in the style of Old Nan - inaccuracies included - and not a plain window into another world. So, there will be wheels within wheels, stories within stories, magical realism on top of magic. For example:

The House of the Undying. The primary layers of information are the visions and the spoken prophecies - these are magical. But there is another layer of information in the structure of the building which doesn't make sense even by the rules of this world (which seems to me like magical realism):

  • It looks like a dragon (what a coincidence)
    • 'coiled like a stone serpent', and 'it drinks the morning sun'
  • It is an allegory for Dany's journey through life, both outside:
    • It was darker than she would have thought under the black trees, and the way was longer. Though the path seemed to run straight from the street to the door of the palace, Pyat Pree soon turned aside.
  • and inside:
    • Two rooms of stoney obscurity, next, an oval room (an egg-shaped room) marked by worms (wyrms), then a hall representing Westeros, where the lights are going out and choosing the right path is terrifyingly difficult. Then meeting the undying, and a blue heart that corresponds neatly with Bran's 'heart of winter'. Finally, her escape route is 'serpentine'.

(Disclaimer: literary form is not my field of expertise; I'm doing my best. Also, the interpretation of the House of the Undying is from this forum, sorry I can't credit it more closely.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 2:54 AM, Walda said:

 

Drogon's eyes are red (AGoT, Ch.72 Daenerys X; ADwD, Ch.50 Daenerys VIII), Viserion's (ADwD, Ch.02 Daenerys I; ADwD, Ch.68 The Dragontamer) molten gold like his namesake's crown. Matching their horns, wingbones, spinal plates and crests, consistent with the colour scheme we are given when we first see their eggs. 

In ADwD Ch.68, Quentyn notices a couple of times that Rhaegal has bronze eyes:

and Daenarys, who identified them to him, seems to confirm this is the case from her PoV too, when she makes a solitary visit to them:

Yet, in Qarth, when Quhuru Mo tells Dany that Robert Baratheon is dead, and Dany tells him that Viserys is also dead:

Given the subject of their conversation, I don't think it is really the eye colour that is wrong here, but the dragon. White Viserion is the logical choice.

Ah, but does

Quote

Beneath Dany’s gentle fingers, green Rhaegal stared at the stranger with eyes of molten gold.

eyes of molten gold describe Rhaegal or the stranger? 

Quote

"I have been amply repaid, great queen."

She puzzled at that.  "How so?"

His eyes gleamed.  "I have seen dragons."

Did Quhuru's eyes gleam like gold?

 

ETA: If so then he may have something in common with Missendei:

Quote

They shared the food together on her terrace.  As Dany nibbled on an olive, the Naathi girl gazed at her with eyes like molten gold...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ah, but does

eyes of molten gold describe Rhaegal or the stranger? 

Did Quhuru's eyes gleam like gold?

 

ETA: If so then he may have something in common with Missendei:

 

Great point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 01/10/2016 at 0:22 PM, Aetta said:

There were a couple right toward the beginning of AGoT.  Don't know if maybe that's due to sorting out the first book.  They were extremely obvious items that I don't feel like digging for.

One of the not so obvious, though, was that when Jamie arrived at Winterfell with Robert & the posse, he was described as wearing Lannister colors/sigils.  Wouldn't he have been dressed in his KG getup?  Did Jamie regularly wear his house's colors rather than his white cloak and I am just spacing out on that?

Not only that: while he is at Winterfell Jaime goes twinsies with Cersei in green

Quote

 Tyrion turned back to his siblings. Twins, male and female. They looked very much the part this morning. Both had chosen a deep green that matched their eyes. Their blond curls were all a fashionable tumble, and gold ornaments shone at wrists and fingers and throats.

(AGoT, Ch.09 Tyrion I)

Both Bran and Eddard note that Ser Boros and Ser Meryn wear white at Winterfell. Maybe Jaime is going undercover for the occasion. Or in mufti because he is on leave. Bran notes

Quote

Two of the Kingsguard had come north with King Robert... Ser Jaime Lannister... was of the Kingsguard too, but ... he ... shouldn’t count anymore.

(AGoT, Ch.Ch.08 Bran II)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Walda said:

Not only that: while he is at Winterfell Jaime goes twinsies with Cersei in green

(AGoT, Ch.09 Tyrion I)

Both Bran and Eddard note that Ser Boros and Ser Meryn wear white at Winterfell. Maybe Jaime is going undercover for the occasion. Or in mufti because he is on leave. Bran notes

(AGoT, Ch.Ch.08 Bran II)

 

I have to wonder about those early chapters, which were drafted when Jaime was gonna be king. I suspect the confusion about Jaime being able to succeed to Tywin's wardenship might have been left over from the earliest drafts. Maybe the Kingsguard oaths were not so rigid when the George started in the early 1990s.

Then again, Jaime was wearing Blackfyre colors at Hayford...

Quote

When he descended for the feast that night, Jaime Lannister wore a doublet of red velvet slashed with cloth-of-gold, and a golden chain studded with black diamonds. He had strapped on his golden hand as well, polished to a fine bright sheen. This was no fit place to wear his whites. His duty awaited him at Riverrun; a darker need had brought him here.

Jaime IV, Feast

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/8/2017 at 5:28 PM, Lew Theobald said:

Shifting eye color (apparent) is a consistent theme in the books, and probably will serve as a setup for future surprises.  I can't recall all the times GRRM has mentioned eyes shifting color, or eyes seeming to change color depending on the light or the clothing worn.

We think Sandor's eyes are grey, only because Sansa thought so when she saw them by torchlight, dilated by rage, drunkenness, and darkness.  But who knows what color they really are.

Actually that is a common feature for light-colored eyes.

The iris consists of 2 layers with different purposes: stroma and pigment epitheleum. The stroma is 2 cells thick, so is the epitheleum. The pigment in the epitheleum is always black. It serves as a light absorb screen to prevent light to drop onto the retine, except for the light going throught the pupil. The pupil serves likes the pinhole of a camera obscura. You only have a sharp image, if the hole is small. The bigger or the more light falls onto the retina the blurrier the image becomes.

So, whether someone has blue, grey, green, hazel, amber or brown eyes: they all have a 2 cells thick black pigmented epitheleum behind the stroma.

Now the stroma can have either no pigment, partial pigment,  or full pigment, but the pigment is either amber-yellow or brown. So, brown eyes have brown-pigmented stroma + black pigmented epitheleum. Amber eyes have yellow-pigmented stroma + black pigmented epitheleum. Hazel eyes have partial brown pigmented stroma (usually around the pupil), and some flecks of amber and black pigmented epitheleum. Green eyes have partial yellow pigmented stroma and black pigmented epitheleum. Blue and grey eyes have no pigment in the stroma. There's no such thing as blue, grey, green let alone purple pigment in the stroma. Blue and grey eyes are translucent stroma + black epitheleum.

Blue, grey and green (partially) are structural colors. This means that the color is not caused by pigment, but scattering of light. When you take a bucket of water out of the sea it'll lok translucent to you. But when you look across the rail of the boat it might be deep dark blue, azure blue like the sky, or greenish, or grey. Obviously that's not because of pigment (you  just have to look at the water in your bucket to know that). You see that color because as the light hits the water and travels through the medium it hits particles, molecules, and they scatter the light into its different color wavelengths. Depending on the size of the particles red wavelength light and such will still travel on, while the shorter wavelength ends up reflected and deflected back up to the surface. So, the ocean looks blue to you,because that's the only wavelength of light that got deflected back up by the size of the particles. Take some flour. That looks white. Pour it in a translucent glass of water. And it looks blue. Air is translucent, and yet the sky looks blue: again scattering of light by the air molecules. Clouds look white or grey, because they're filled with ice molecules that are so big that all light is reflected back. So, the scattered wavelength depends on the density and size of the particles doing the scattering. 

Grey eyes differ in collagen density from blue eyes, comparable to you seeing a cloud as grey and the unclouded sky as blue. The green of green eyes is again scattered wavelength light. Once yellow or brown pigment is partially present in the stroma the slightly longer wavelength of green is scattered by the tarnslucent sections of the stroma. And yes, just as when the source of light (the sun) is high up in the air, or close to the horizon, the sky shifts in color appearance. So, when you look at someone's eyes where the color depends on scattering of light, not pigment, then those eye-colors will shift.

But grey eyes are grey eyes and blue eyes are blue. Blue eyes can shift the most depending of the angle, the surrounding colors, the amount of light, because it's nothing but the optical illusion created by scattering of light. Hazel eyes may appear brown from a distance, but once you look closer into someone's hazel eyes you'll see the green. Amber is amber. Brown if brown (if fully pigmented).

Does George know this? Yup, that's why he mentions the shifting of eye color with the eyes that can shift in color when observing them in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@sweetsunray That's interesting, thank you.

So, true purple eyes don't exist in our world, because there is no such pigment - Elizabeth Taylor's 'violet eyes' are probably the closest we'll get (more of a bluebell shade really).

I was sceptical that wearing intense purple, or purple hair, would make eyes look more purple - but the advice from fashion is that deep blue is a good colour to enhance blue eyes, so maybe so.

Likewise sunsets, and lamplight - I can see it would make colours more red, but the brain adjusts, so eyes might not seem more purple than usual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

@sweetsunray That's interesting, thank you.

So, true purple eyes don't exist in our world, because there is no such pigment - Elizabeth Taylor's 'violet eyes' are probably the closest we'll get (more of a bluebell shade really).

I was sceptical that wearing intense purple, or purple hair, would make eyes look more purple - but the advice from fashion is that deep blue is a good colour to enhance blue eyes, so maybe so.

Likewise sunsets, and lamplight - I can see it would make colours more red, but the brain adjusts, so eyes might not seem more purple than usual.

Elizabeth Taylor's eyes appear violet from an angle, but are blue. In a sense there are no true green, no true blue, no true grey eyes either, not if you consider a color only a true color if it is due to pigment. Without the scattering effect, all these eyes should look black (becaus of the black pigmented epitheleum behind the translucent stroma), except for green which should look black with a partial aureola of yellow pigment. But since white light can be physically scattered into different wavelengths enabling us to see a rainbow, even structural colors are considered "true colors".

Not all the scattering is completely understood, as there are various physical ways in which light can scatter. The blue of the sky is Raleigh scattering. The blue of eyes or flour in a glass is Tyndal scattering. The grey of clouds and eyes is called Mie scattering and suspected to be due to thicker collagen within the iris. Green is Tyndal scattering combined with yellow-brownish pigment (and thus shifting). Because the pigment is always there as a surrounding element to influence and shift the structurally scattered blue light it always looks green. Regardless, there is no blue, green, grey or purple pigment.

"True purple" eyes only occurs with albinism. Again, those are not pigmented purple. It's either the wavelengh of light scattered (shorter even than blue) or shifting influence by light reflected back by the retina through the iris into the outside world, because the epitheleum is not fully opaque black, and thereby losing its "absorb all non scattered light" function. As the light is reflected and alights the red capillaries within the iris you have the same effect as mixing blue wavelength with red wavelength looking purple. If the epitheleum is fully translucent then you get red eyes such as with Bloodraven (who shouldn't be an excellent bownman at all, because in reality he would only see everything blurry).

The difference between "true purple" with albinism and "Elizabeth Taylor's purple" is the cause of the shift. The state of the iris is permanent. Any physical circumstance within the iris that causes blue scattered light to shift to green (yellow pigment) or purple (red wavelenght light not fully absorbed by the black screen, making the blood cappilaries visible) is a permanent one. It's still in a sense an optical illusion, but a permanent optical illusion. But if the shift is due to temporary surrounding circumstances outside of the iris (environment light conditions, clothing, make-up) then it's not "true purple".

For example, the Lannister twins have green eyes, because of the permanent state of their irises causing a shift from blue scattered light to green. They have "true green" eyes. Let's assume that George did not make an error when Sansa described Renly's eyes as green. They are "true blue" eyes, but a deep green armor could cause a temporary shift to the impression of green.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 -snip-

For example, the Lannister twins have green eyes, because of the permanent state of their irises causing a shift from blue scattered light to green. They have "true green" eyes. Let's assume that George did not make an error when Sansa described Renly's eyes as green. They are "true blue" eyes, but a deep green armor could cause a temporary shift to the impression of green.

 

I like this explanation.  Symbolically, I think George wants to first introduce Renly as a "green knight" or "green man" archetype, and the green eyes paired with the green armor, and the antlered helm, does a good job of setting up the image.

I also wonder if George is having a bit of fun with Sansa's unrealistic worldview and unreliability as a point of view narrator.  For example we have this passage:

Quote

Sansa rode to the Hand's tourney with Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole, in a litter with curtains of yellow silk so find she could see right through them.  They turned the whole world gold.

Then we have Sansa's description of Ser Loras, 

Quote

To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red.  "Sweet lady," he said, "no victory is half so beautiful as you."  Sansa took the flower timidly, struck dumb by his gallantry.  His hair was a mass of lazy brown curls, his eyes like liquid gold.

While in the eyes of a less impassioned observer, Cersei, Loras' eyes are described as brown:

Quote

The Knight of Flowers was in white silk, with a belt of golden roses about his waist and a jade rose fastening his cloak.  They could be twins, Cersei thought as she watched them.  Ser Loras was a year older than his sister, but they had the same big brown eyes, the same thick brown hair falling in lazy ringlets to their shoulders, the same smooth unblemished skin.

So if Sansa is looking at Loras' brown eyes through a "golden lens", then they will appear golden.  However if you look at the color blue through a golden lens it appears green.  So when Sansa is looking at Renly's blue eyes through her "golden lens" they appear green.

I think this eye color mistake may be a little joke that Martin is having about Sansa's worldview.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...