Mistakes/Contradictions in the books?

[The Bard of Banefort]

Something that I find a bit puzzling is Quentyn and Barristan's insistence that Daenerys never laughed at Quentyn, when we saw her do just that during their first scene together"

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"And thereby brought Robert's warhammer down upon himself, and Dorne as well," said Frog. "My father was content to wait for the day that Prince Viserys found his army."

"Your father?"

 

"Prince Doran." He sank back onto one knee. "Your Grace, I have the honor to be Quentyn Martell, a prince of Dorne and your most leal subject."

Dany laughed.

The Dornish prince flushed red, whilst her own court and counselors gave her puzzled looks. "Radiance?" said Skahaz Shavepate, in the Ghiscari tongue. "Why do you laugh?"

"They call him frog," she said, "and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children's tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love." Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. "Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?"

"No, Your Grace."

"I feared as much." Neither enchanted nor enchanting, alas. A pity he's the prince, and not the one with the wide shoulders and the sandy hair. "You have come for a kiss, however. You mean to marry me. Is that the way of it? The gift you bring me is your own sweet self. Instead of Viserys and your sister, you and I must seal this pact if I want Dorne."

"My father hoped that you might find me acceptable."

 

 

 

I suppose you could make the argument that she wasn't specifically laughing at Quentyn here, but seeing as she gave her explanation in a foreign tongue, how would he know that? Having two POV characters conveniently forget this scene took me out of the story a bit.

[Nihlus]

The armies of the Stormlands don't seem to exist in the latest book even though they haven't really suffered any damage thus far.

[direpupy]

23 minutes ago, Nihlus said:

The armies of the Stormlands don't seem to exist in the latest book even though they haven't really suffered any damage thus far.

More a case of them being counted among the troops of the Reach, after Renly died most of his horse went to Stannis but his foot remained under the command of the Tyrells and his army was made up from the combined armies of the Reach and the Stormlands. Thus when the Tyrells brought there forces down to the battle of the Blackwater it was still this combined force and the men from the Stormlands where erroneously counted as Tyrell men. Even Tyrion when he talks to Oberyn upon there first meeting makes this mistake and counts the Stormlanders among the forces of the Tyrells.

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Something that I find a bit puzzling is Quentyn and Barristan's insistence that Daenerys never laughed at Quentyn, when we saw her do just that during their first scene together"

 

 

I suppose you could make the argument that she wasn't specifically laughing at Quentyn here, but seeing as she gave her explanation in a foreign tongue, how would he know that? Having two POV characters conveniently forget this scene took me out of the story a bit.

It plays into the Dorne subplot and the second Dance of the Dragons. Daenerys will not understand why Dorne will blame her for Quentyn's death. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Nihlus said:

The armies of the Stormlands don't seem to exist in the latest book even though they haven't really suffered any damage thus far.

Didn't virtually all declare for Renly, and joint with him at Bitterbridge? Didn't most of them then follow Stannis until Blackwater? So, shouldn't we assume that most are either with Stannis or Tarly? Of course many have probably found their way home, and I expect the Marcher Lords were justified in holding strength back because of Dorne's mobilization. 

[Dex the Dog]

I have seen a lot of discussion around skin tones, eye colors and hair. As a Scandinavian, most of the "mistakes" (except clear ones like from blue to brown) seem like ordinary observation variations. 

For example, many children with scandic heritage are born with very light, almost perfectly white hair. As the children grow, the hair gradually turns to blonde and then to more golden shades of light brown. The final mature hair color can be anything from golden blonde to dark browns and dark sand and dirt grays. 

Also "white" skin has a lot of shade variations. A lot of scandic people have a slight pink-ish or brown-ish undertone but there are also distinct olive-ish and even yellow-ish variations. For example people who are clearly "white" as far as "race definition" goes can appear very pale in the winter but turn distinctively olive or even golden/yellow in the summer, sometimes so much they seem to have liver conditions. 

Also, a gray-blue eyes appear in different shades in different lightings. The shade can also vary depending on age and even nutrition. 

[Walda]

 

GRRM is usually good with the phases of the moon, tides, etc. Enough for us to know that there is one moon and it works exactly like the one we are familiar with does. Enough for us to use his moons as a guide to the passage of time.

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 Ahead, shadows began to steal between the trees, the long fingers of the dusk. Dark came early this far north. Bran had come to dread that. Each day seemed shorter than the last...

As the first sliver of a crescent moon came peeking through the clouds, they finally stumbled into the village by the lake. ...

The direwolf moved toward the meat, a gaunt grey shadow sliding from tree to tree, through pools of moonlight and over mounds of snow...

A head staring sightlessly up at a horned moon,...

Falling snow and feasting wolves began to dim. Warmth beat against his face, ...

“You almost slept through supper. The ranger found a sow.”...

“You said no fire,” he reminded the ranger.
“The walls around us hide the light, and dawn is close. We will be on our way soon.”

(ADwD, Ch.04 Bran I)

Dawn is more than six hours away, as the moon is a waxing crescent. (ie. it rose in the morning, and becomes visible towards dusk, when the light of the sun grows low enough, and sets less than half way through the night  - the thinner the crescent, the sooner after dusk.)  Given it is autumn, and they are in the far north, probably more like eight hours until the dawn.  The further north, the longer after the equinox, the further away dawn will be. Although, Bran notes the dusk seems to come sooner every day, indicating that they are still very near the autumnal equinox (or would be, if their sun worked the way ours does).

At the time Coldhands was excusing his fire, the moon had either not even set, or only just set. I guess he doesn't wear a watch. 

 

[Springwatch]

On 06/08/2017 at 8:59 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I like this explanation.  Symbolically, I think George wants to first introduce Renly as a "green knight" or "green man" archetype, and the green eyes paired with the green armor, and the antlered helm, does a good job of setting up the image.

I also wonder if George is having a bit of fun with Sansa's unrealistic worldview and unreliability as a point of view narrator.  For example we have this passage:

Then we have Sansa's description of Ser Loras, 

While in the eyes of a less impassioned observer, Cersei, Loras' eyes are described as brown:

So if Sansa is looking at Loras' brown eyes through a "golden lens", then they will appear golden.  However if you look at the color blue through a golden lens it appears green.  So when Sansa is looking at Renly's blue eyes through her "golden lens" they appear green.

I think this eye color mistake may be a little joke that Martin is having about Sansa's worldview.

This all sounds good.

I had a little look for myself, and Sansa's eyes are mentioned so often, and so often they are averted, or lowered, or full of tears. Perhaps she does have her eyes opened though: when Arya throws that famous blood orange, the juice stings Sansa's eyes.

Or perhaps not, if this quote also applies to her:

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[Tyrion, on Penny]  Sometimes he envied the girl all her pretty little dreams. She reminded him of Sansa Stark ... Sometimes he wanted to slap her, shake her, scream at her, anything to wake her from her dreams. No one is going to save us, he wanted to scream at her.... Yet somehow he could never say the words. Instead of giving her a good hard crack across that ugly face of hers to knock the blinders from her eyes, he would find himself squeezing her shoulder or giving her a hug....

ADOD

 

[Walda]

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 The Wall had no gates as such, neither here at Castle Black nor anywhere along its three hundred miles.

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They led their horses down a narrow tunnel cut through the ice, cold dark walls pressing in around them as the passage twisted and turned. Three times their way was blocked by iron bars, and they had to stop while Bowen Marsh drew out his keys and unlocked the massive chains that secured them.

(AGoT, Ch.48 Jon VI)

Well, straight off the bat, that sounds suspiciously like Castle Black does have at least one gate. And then there is:

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Bowen Marsh was waiting at the first gate as they led their garrons through the icy tunnel. The Lord Steward was red-faced and agitated. “My lord,” he blurted at Mormont as he swung open the iron bars, “there’s been a bird, you must come at once.”

(AGoT, Ch.52 Jon VII)

And

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Mance will know his best chance is to pass beneath the Wall. Through a gate, or …”
“A breach.”
Mormont’s head came up sharply.

(ACoK, Ch.43 Jon V)

Qhorin also knows the wall is full of gates Mance could pass through:

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“Belike we shall all die, then. Our dying will buy time for our brothers on the Wall. Time to garrison the empty castles and freeze shut the gates, time to summon lords and kings to their aid, time to hone their axes and repair their catapults. Our lives will be coin well spent.”

(ACoK, Ch.43 Jon V)

Sam only knows one gate:

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It was the gate at Castle Black they needed to find; the only way through the Wall for a hundred leagues.

(ASoS, Ch.46 Samwell III)

Although, you would think, whether it is called Queensgate or Snowgate, (or even, for that matter, Rimegate) the name of that fort would be a strong hint to lettered man like Sam, even if the ignorant Wildlings are

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climbing near Queensgate, they’re hacking at the gates of Greyguard,

(ASoS, Ch.48 Jon VI)

Although Jon and the wildlings agree with Sam that Castle Black is the only way through

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“The gate is here. The attack is here.”

(ASoS, Ch.48 Jon VI)

Bran has never spent a sleepless night studying the history of the wall, or attempting to defend it against a wildling horde, but in marked contrast to Sam and Jon, he knows

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The gate the Nightfort guarded had been sealed since the day the black brothers had loaded up their mules and garrons and departed for Deep Lake; its iron portcullis lowered, the chains that raised it carried off, the tunnel packed with stone and rubble all frozen together until they were as impenetrable as the Wall itself.

(ASoS, Ch.56 Bran IV)

Bran also knows

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All the gates are sealed except the ones at Castle Black, Eastwatch, and the Shadow Tower.

(ASoS,Ch.56 Bran IV) even though it turned out as Coldhands said and Jojen dreamed

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“There’s a gate,” said fat Sam. “A hidden gate, as old as the Wall itself. The Black Gate, he called it.”

(ASoS, Ch.56 Bran IV) One has to wonder how Jon Snow knows less than Bran. He has heard Old Nan's tales of it longer than Bran

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 Beyond the gates the monsters live, and the giants and the ghouls, he remembered Old Nan saying

(ASoS, Ch.56 Bran IV)

No other character seems to share Jon's  first opinion that Castle Black doesn't really have a gate.

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“The gate!” Pyp cried out. “They’re at the GATE!”

(ASoS, Ch.64 Jon VIII)

GRRM seems to have given up on the idea, and instead of denying it really is a gate,finally gives us a detailed description of it.

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the gate was a crooked tunnel through the ice, smaller than any castle gate in the Seven Kingdoms, so narrow that rangers must lead their garrons through single file. Three iron grates closed the inner passage, each locked and chained and protected by a murder hole. The outer door was old oak, nine inches thick and studded with iron, not easy to break through.

(ASoS, Ch.64 Jon VIII) And making a stirring last-stand set piece from it

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so long as we hold the gate they cannot pass. They cannot pass!”

(ASoS, Ch.64 Jon VIII) with a moving after-piece

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The ice pressed close around them, and he could feel the cold seeping into his bones, the weight of the Wall above his head. It felt like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon. The tunnel took a twist, and then another. Pyp unlocked a second iron gate. They walked farther, turned again, and saw light ahead, faint and pale through the ice. That’s bad, Jon knew at once. That’s very bad.
Then Pyp said, “There’s blood on the floor.”
The last twenty feet of the tunnel was where they’d fought and died. The outer door of studded oak had been hacked and broken and finally torn off its hinges, and one of the giants had crawled in through the splinters. The lantern bathed the grisly scene in a sullen reddish light. Pyp turned aside to retch, and Jon found himself envying Maester Aemon his blindness.
Noye and his men had been waiting within, behind a gate of heavy iron bars like the two Pyp had just unlocked...Still the giant found the strength to reach through, twist the head off Spotted Pate, seize the iron gate, and wrench the bars apart. Links of broken chain lay strewn across the floor

(ASoS, Ch.64 Jon VIII) After which, Jon steps out of denial and starts to tacitly admit that every holdfast along the wall does in fact have a gate of some kind

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" I shall require a list from you, detailing the present state of every castle and what might be required to restore it. I mean to have them all garrisoned again within the year, and nightfires burning before their gates.”

(ASoS, Ch.78 Samwell V, Jon telling Sam) Towards the end, Jon admits the gate exists openly

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It was time. “Open the gate,” Jon Snow said softly.
“OPEN THE GATE!” Big Liddle roared. His voice was thunder.

(ADwD, Ch.58 Jon XII)

Talking about time , Bryndon Rivers, who was a man of the Night's Watch as well as the last greenseer, strongly implies that the Black Gate has the potential to open to a different time:

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a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past.

(ADwD, Ch.33 Bran III)

[Walda]

Probably just a misspelling in my edition, this one:

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this so-called Lord of Harrenhal is a butcher’s whelp unjumped by the Lannisters.

(ASoS, Ch.78 Samwell V) Most likely meant to be upjumped.

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 minutes ago, Walda said:

(AGoT, Ch.48 Jon VI)

Well, straight off the bat, that sounds suspiciously like Castle Black does have at least one gate. And then there is:

(AGoT, Ch.52 Jon VII)

And

(ACoK, Ch.43 Jon V)

Qhorin also knows the wall is full of gates Mance could pass through:

(ACoK, Ch.43 Jon V)

Sam only knows one gate:

(ASoS, Ch.46 Samwell III)

Although, you would think, whether it is called Queensgate or Snowgate, (or even, for that matter, Rimegate) the name of that fort would be a strong hint to lettered man like Sam, even if the ignorant Wildlings are

(ASoS, Ch.48 Jon VI)

Although Jon and the wildlings agree with Sam that Castle Black is the only way through

(ASoS, Ch.48 Jon VI)

Bran has never spent a sleepless night studying the history of the wall, or attempting to defend it against a wildling horde, but in marked contrast to Sam and Jon, he knows

(ASoS, Ch.56 Bran IV)

Bran also knows

(ASoS,Ch.56 Bran IV) even though it turned out as Coldhands said and Jojen dreamed

(ASoS, Ch.56 Bran IV) One has to wonder how Jon Snow knows less than Bran. He has heard Old Nan's tales of it longer than Bran

(ASoS, Ch.56 Bran IV)

No other character seems to share Jon's  first opinion that Castle Black doesn't really have a gate.

(ASoS, Ch.64 Jon VIII)

GRRM seems to have given up on the idea, and instead of denying it really is a gate,finally gives us a detailed description of it.

(ASoS, Ch.64 Jon VIII) And making a stirring last-stand set piece from it

(ASoS, Ch.64 Jon VIII) with a moving after-piece

(ASoS, Ch.64 Jon VIII) After which, Jon steps out of denial and starts to tacitly admit that every holdfast along the wall does in fact have a gate of some kind

(ASoS, Ch.78 Samwell V, Jon telling Sam) Towards the end, Jon admits the gate exists openly

(ADwD, Ch.58 Jon XII)

Talking about time , Bryndon Rivers, who was a man of the Night's Watch as well as the last greenseer, strongly implies that the Black Gate has the potential to open to a different time:

(ADwD, Ch.33 Bran III)

The first quote refers to the lack of walls and gates to the south that would prevent an army of the Seven Kingdoms from attacking the Wall from the south. 

[Walda]

On 23/08/2017 at 0:37 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

The first quote refers to the lack of walls and gates to the south that would prevent an army of the Seven Kingdoms from attacking the Wall from the south. 

Yeah, nah.

The context of that first quote is that they are heading from Castle Black North to the Godswood grove on the other side of the wall to say their vows.

The bit where the lack of walls is first mentioned is AGoT, Ch.19 Jon III, in his 'the wall was like that' reverie between being chewed out by Donal Noye and chatted to by Tyrion.  Later, the walls, gates, and lack thereof to the South, East, and West of the forts on the wall are mentioned in ASoS,Ch.55 Jon VII. Firstly he remembers what Benjen told him in a historical retrospective, then Jon surveys the new makeshift wall on the south side of Castle Black from a military angle.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Walda said:

Yeah, nah.

The context of that first quote is that they are heading from Castle Black North to the Godswood grove on the other side of the wall to say their vows.

The bit where the lack of walls is first mentioned is AGoT, Ch.19 Jon III, in his 'the wall was like that' reverie between being chewed out by Donal Noye and chatted to by Tyrion.  Later, the walls, gates, and lack thereof to the South, East, and West of the forts on the wall are mentioned in ASoS,Ch.55 Jon VII. Firstly he remembers what Benjen told him in a historical retrospective, then Jon surveys the new makeshift wall on the south side of Castle Black from a military angle.

I see what you mean. I stand corrected. 

[Walda]

It's not in a part of the book that lends itself to close reading, but it just occurred to me...

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She wanted to see if it would be as easy with a woman as it had always been with Robert. Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, Your Grace, she thought

(AFfC, Ch.32 Cersei VII)

Either Cersei knows the microscopic constituents of semen and their purpose, or she has been giving Robert hand jobs day and night every day since their wedding night.

Also, it is odd she is thinking in terms of avoiding conception, given the situation.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Walda said:

It's not in a part of the book that lends itself to close reading, but it just occurred to me...

(AFfC, Ch.32 Cersei VII)

Either Cersei knows the microscopic constituents of semen and their purpose, or she has been giving Robert hand jobs day and night every day since their wedding night.

Also, it is odd she is thinking in terms of avoiding conception, given the situation.

[Kandrax]

In serbian edition of TWOIAF Blood and Cheese are one person.

[Walda]

A typo

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Ser Axell proposes we swoop down on the homes they left behind, to rape their windows and put their children to the sword

A Storm of Swords Ch.36 Davos IV

Bantam Spectra Mass Market Edition March 2003

[Walda]

Is Ser Raymun Darry the Lord of Darry?

Eddard Stark thinks so

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The royal party had made themselves the uninvited guests of its lord, Ser Raymun Darry, while the hunt for Arya and the butcher’s boy was conducted on both sides of the river.

AGoT, Ch.16 Eddard III

But when Tom Sevenstreams enumerates the Riverlanders who died on Lannister swords and spears, he counts the knight and the lord as two separate people.

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Tom Sevenstrings took up the count. “Alyn of Winterfell, Joth Quick-bow, Little Matt and his sister Randa, Anvil Ryn. Ser Ormond. Ser Dudley. Pate of Mory, Pate of Lancewood, Old Pate, and Pate of Shermer’s Grove. Blind Wyl the Whittler. Goodwife Maerie. Maerie the Whore. Becca the Baker. Ser Raymun Darry, Lord Darry, young Lord Darry. The Bastard of Bracken. Fletcher Will. Harsley. Goodwife Nolla—”

ASoS, Ch.34 Arya VI

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

5 hours ago, Walda said:

Is Ser Raymun Darry the Lord of Darry?

Eddard Stark thinks so

AGoT, Ch.16 Eddard III

But when Tom Sevenstreams enumerates the Riverlanders who died on Lannister swords and spears, he counts the knight and the lord as two separate people.

ASoS, Ch.34 Arya VI

It certainly sounds like it, but perhaps that's not how it is meant. The way the second quote is phrased, it sounds like Raymun was succeeded by an unknown Lord Darry, who was in turn succeeded by Lyman ("young Lord Darry"), but we know that Lyman was Raymun's heir, and thus is the person who succeeded Raymun. So perhaps, "Ser Raymun Darry, Lord Darry," is supposed to refer to the same person (the way one might say "Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell"). But it sounds a bit weird.

[Kandrax]

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When the Lord of the Crossing welcomed Catelyn in the great hall of the east castle, surrounded by twenty living sons (minus Ser Perwyn, who would have made twenty-one), thirty-six grandsons, nineteen great-grandsons, and numerous daughters, granddaughters, bastards, and grandbastards, she understood just what he had meant.

There are two mistakes.

1) Without Geremy, there is indeed 21 trueborn son. However, there is no way that all of them could be there. Emmon should be in Westernlands, Luceon in KL and Willamen in Vale.

2) Walder has 31 trueborn grandsons (two of them born after this event) instead of 36, and 17 great-grandsons instead of 19. Also, some grandsons like Bloodborn and Emmon's sons shouldn't be there.