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season 5 deviations... don't make sense.


normalice

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A Stark back in Winterfell should be the climax and resolution of the story, whether is Jon, Sansa or Rickon. They used it as a excuse for a shocking move but added little or nothing to the plot. Sansa could have been married to Ramsay in Deepwood Motte and it would have been the same.

Exactly. What was the point of it being Winterfell? What role did Winterfell played? Sansa barely refer to it as Winterfell, even though she should know the place. A few scenes staring at the broken tower just don't cut it. It could easily have happened in the Dreadfort or even in the Vale for as much as It meant. In fact, Ramsay appearing as a Knight in the Vale's tourney makes more sense than what we got. 

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Exactly. What was the point of it being Winterfell? What role did Winterfell played? Sansa barely refer to it as Winterfell, even though she should know the place. A few scenes staring at the broken tower just don't cut it. It could easily have happened in the Dreadfort or even in the Vale for as much as It meant. In fact, Ramsay appearing as a Knight in the Vale's tourney makes more sense than what we got. 

Yeah, they could use her body as a plot device for shock anywhere.

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The whole book Winterfell story is really about the tenuous hold the Boltons have on the North and how the Northern Lords were only waiting to strike because of their kin being held as hostages by the Freys. House Manderly was coordinating efforts under the roof of Winterfell and they do not exist on the show.  HBO, D&D, Cogman and Graves scrapped all of that and dispatched Stannis swiftly but they kept the rape and a cheap jump off a Castle Wall. The death of Myranda does not count as  a victim of the "Ghost of Winterfell" either . They wanted Sansa to get raped and by Ramsay.  They insult us by claiming it was her choice, therefore it was her fault because they cannot admit to it being the rape everyone knows it is/was.

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Funny how everyone here who quotes that article conveniently omits the paragraph in the middle:

 “In the books, Sansa has very few chapters in the Vale once she’s up there. That was not going to be an option for one of our lead characters. While this is a very bold departure, [we liked] the power of bringing a Stark back to Winterfell and having her reunite with Theon under these circumstances.” 

Clearly showing that one of their main motivations was to bring Sansa back to Winterfell and have her interact with Theon. The subplot they are clearly referring to is the ghost of winterfell subplot with theon. 

I understand you feel they had no choice in adapting Sansa. I disagree, but lets leave that there for now.

Let me try a different tack. A poster on this forum (can't remember who, I apologize for stealing it) pointed out that the entire tone of episode six could have been changed completely, without altering the actual functioning of the plot at all.

Instead of having the Sansa and Myranda bath scene, before the rape, they could have placed it after. Imagine it - Sansa has just been raped and is trying to wash the experience off. Myranda comes in to gloat at her, only to be faced with Sansa's tough line about not being afraid. With this editing change, the entire tone of episode six is altered and Bryan Cogman's comments abut Sansa being a strong woman making a choice hold so much more weight. The rest of the plotline would be completely unaffected - Sansa would still be suffering and has reason to look to Theon for help, we're all invested in her story and all other characters and scenes could continue as they did.

So with no plot specific reason why they couldn't have done it that way, generating shock and revulsion in the audience after that episode seems to have been the motivating factor to end with the rape itself. They didn't want to focus on Sansa's character, or Theon's redemption - it was a deliberate slap round the face to get the clickbait articles moving and generate yet more exposure for GOT.

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yeah maybe that way round would have been better. But then the rape having zero effect on her would be totally unrealistic as well. She's still not the strong invincible woman I think a lot of people want her to be. 

I still disagree it was done for shock however. Placing the rape at the end of the episode actually is probably the most tasteful way it could be done. Imagine putting it in the middle, then following it up with any other scene.. D&D would be slaughtered for treating the event lightly. 

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Bold is nonsense. Bran is also an important character and they had no problem not bringing him back for one season :dunno:

Also, they would have been able to squeeze a lot of screen time out of it if they actually did the Vale plot line justice instead of rushing through it.  And why was bringing in some of her Winds material not an option?  

 

I still disagree it was done for shock however. Placing the rape at the end of the episode actually is probably the most tasteful way it could be done. Imagine putting it in the middle, then following it up with any other scene.. D&D would be slaughtered for treating the event lightly. 

The fact that they placed it at the end of the episode doesn't mean that it wasn't for shock factor (or that it was in any way tasteful).

 

But yeah, the deviations really don't make sense.  Changes are always going to happen in an adaption, but most of the stuff they changed in S5 threw away logic and character development for... something.  I don't know. I've no idea what they were going for with half these plot lines.

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The Vale plot being rubbish is a relative term, not a fact.

But, let's say it's rubbish, boring and nothing happens, something many like to pull out when the changes are discussed.

The fact a plot needs to be "upgraded" with action justifies the use of senseless violence? Doubt it. If that's all you can do then it's telling of how the people doing the adaptation lacks any skill. Seriously.

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 ..but the Vale plot is.. rubbish.. 

Did D&D make an account here or something

It doesn't really matter what you think of the plot, it's there and it's part of the story and a large part of Sansa's character development. An entire plot shouldn't be removed just because someone (subjectively) finds it "boring".

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Did D&D make an account here or something

It doesn't really matter what you think of the plot, it's there and it's part of the story and a large part of Sansa's character development. An entire plot shouldn't be removed just because someone (subjectively) finds it "boring".

Actually it should.  This is a tv show and if a certain plot is deemed not be interesting or compelling enough for the tv viewers than the showrunners have every right not to include it. This happens all the time in tv and the movies.

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Actually it should.  This is a tv show and if a certain plot is deemed not be interesting or compelling enough for the tv viewers than the showrunners have every right not to include it. This happens all the time in tv and the movies.

Exactly, its up to D&D to decide what will and won't work for tv, its part of making an adaptation. I think even the most hardcore bookfanboys would agree that the books couldn't be executed exactly as they are on the page. So some things have to be dropped.

It makes sense that one of the most 'boring' sections of the books that achieve very little and isolate a main character would need to be amended.

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They can remove what they like. That doesn't make it a good decision. It's an adaptation and they turned a main character, who was already cardboard, into a secondary character. She's a prop, a plot device, a body used for shock factor. And various characters and stories were changed for the worse as a result.

And enough with the "isolate a main character" thing. We've shown that all main characters are "isolated" for large parts of their stories: Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Catelyn, Brienne, Jaime, etc.

And Sansa wasn't even isolated, she was with a criminal mastermind and the lord of the Vale. Right in the thick of a political plot that is going to factor into the story, centered on the game of thrones. And right near her undead Mother in the Riverlands, and those two plots were converging.

And what they replaced it with was the very definition of isolation. She did nothing all season. She was humiliated and raped, and humiliated and raped, and humiliated some more, supporting characters she had nothing to do with before, that was her entire season, that's not even a story, much less better than her own story, which was designed for her.

Then she left! Anyone could have played that part. And anyone should have. That part was designed for a secondary character for a good reason. That part is not about her, it's about Theon. And it wasn't even about him on the show, it was about Ramsay.

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They can remove what they like. That doesn't make it a good decision. It's an adaptation and they turned a main character, who was already cardboard, into a secondary character. She's a prop, a plot device, a body used for shock factor. And various characters and stories were changed for the worse as a result.

And enough with the "isolate a main character" thing. We've shown that all main characters are "isolated" for large parts of their stories: Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Catelyn, Brienne, Jaime, etc.

And Sansa wasn't even isolated, she was with a criminal mastermind and the lord of the Vale. Right in the thick of a political plot that is going to factor into the story, centered on the game of thrones. And right near her undead Mother in the Riverlands, and those two plots were converging.

And what they replaced it with was the very definition of isolation. She did nothing all season. She was humiliated and raped, and humiliated and raped, and humiliated some more, supporting characters she had nothing to do with before, that was her entire season, that's not even a story, much less better than her own story, which was designed for her.

Then she left! Anyone could have played that part. And anyone should have. That part was designed for a secondary character for a good reason. That part is not about her, it's about Theon. And it wasn't even about him on the show, it was about Ramsay.

Yeah, these "arc is rubbish" or "isolated character" arguments are rubbish!

Just because someone doesn't like an arc doesn't mean that it's ok to cut it. I personally don't like Tyrion's story that much, doesn't mean that it should been cut entirely. And i can say Tyrion arc is rubbish in a forum post too, doesn't turn it into expandable material. I'm sure that we can find some fans that like or dislike every character arc, so witch one do you cut or keep? 

And even if the story was that bad, that's no excuse to do some random fan-fiction that doesn't follow Sansa's characterization instead. It's true that some book readers didn't like Sansa's Vale story, but I'm pretty sure the percentage of show viewers who didn't like her Show story is even higher. That's almost criticized by everybody, even by die-hard show fans.

The "isolated part" is ridiculous too. It's not like she was locked alone in her room in the Vale (hmm, remembers me of something). If you think the story is too "isolated" from the others, then just try to make the connections more clear instead of blowing everything up. I'm sure than a season of Sansa clearly trying to manipulate the Vale lords with LF's help in order to make them help her retake Winterfell would have been great. Finish it by a scene where they're marching to Winterfell and the hype would go through the roof. Or, shocking, make her fail and see how it goes.

Trim instead the Ramsey/Theon plot, who are secondary characters, in order to prioritize the main ones. The only important thing you loose is Theon's redemption. But since it took him too seconds to transform from Reek into Theon, they could clearly keep it for next season in a different manner. The other thing is the rape scene. So shocking!

So, yeah, you loose some details about a secondary character, but keep a main one true to herself. Does the shocking scene really justify it? And if you really need a shocking scene, isn't there a way to create one yourself in the Vale, one that would be logical with the characters you're using, instead of reverting 4 seasons of character development in order to switch her with some random character?

Imagine if in season 2 they had Sam go with Ygritte because that story was too isolated for a main character. They could keep Jon with the "known" men of the Nights Watch that way, and so less isolated. Then we could have a terrified Jon staying behind after the battle, and Sam joining the Wildlings, because that's what happens in the books too.

Characters are not interchangeable.

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And enough with the "isolate a main character" thing. We've shown that all main characters are "isolated" for large parts of their stories: Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Catelyn, Brienne, Jaime, etc.

As I stated in a previous post, almost every single character on the show has had their storylines connected more closely to other storylines in order to stop that isolation from happening. Its a big problem with GRRMs later books  and its the correct decision to try and fix it for the tv show. 

To say that Sansa wasn't isolated in the books is just fibbing really, she was. Shes hidden away from everyone else, literally. She even has limited interactions with LF. The whole plot is a set up to.. well who knows, but so far its not really doing anything. Plus there is literally no drama or interesting events in her entire story... unless you enjoy the ins and outs of babysitting. To the point where she might as well not have any chapters at all. 

"I'm sure than a season of Sansa clearly trying to manipulate the Vale lords with LF's help in order to make them help her retake Winterfell would have been great."

Yeah except that didn't really happen in the books at all.. she might have popped into the room a few times while LF did that, but she was hardly being a master manipulator. Plus.. why would the audience care about the Vale Lords?! A non established faction who don't really seem to have any sort of role to viewers, its pretty unclear why they are important. Spending any more time than absolutely necessary setting that up would be a complete waste.. and in fact most of it was already achieved last season. 


 

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Yeah except that didn't really happen in the books at all.. she might have popped into the room a few times while LF did that, but she was hardly being a master manipulator. Plus.. why would the audience care about the Vale Lords?! A non established faction who don't really seem to have any sort of role to viewers, its pretty unclear why they are important. Spending any more time than absolutely necessary setting that up would be a complete waste.. and in fact most of it was already achieved last season. 

 That's why I said they could have make the connections with the other storylines more clear. And trying to manipulate them doesn't mean she is a master manipulator.

Why would the audience care about the Vale Lords? Really? Then why should they care about the Sand Snakes and Doran Martell too. Or why care about the Wildlings, or care about Stannis,... It will be pretty awkward if next season they appear out of nowhere to help LF just because. And you're not spending time setting them up, you're using time setting Sansa, the main character of this story, up.

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 That's why I said they could have make the connections with the other storylines more clear. And trying to manipulate them doesn't mean she is a master manipulator.

Why would the audience care about the Vale Lords? Really? Then why should they care about the Sand Snakes and Doran Martell too. Or why care about the Wildlings, or care about Stannis,... It will be pretty awkward if next season they appear out of nowhere to help LF just because. And you're not spending time setting them up, you're using time setting Sansa, the main character of this story, up.

TBH I'll never understand why the audience cares about anything on this show. Bad shit happens randomly for Shocks™, but gods forbid D&D actually include moments of human decency and levity. Why everyone doesn't suffer from Darkness Induced Apathy is the only true shock. Not to mention characterizations are either erratic or pieces of cardboard, so how can you even bring yourself to care about anyone?

But whatever. The emperor's clothes look great.

The changes didn't make sense this year, no. This entire show is divorced of logic

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Then why should they care about the Sand Snakes 

Sheesh, Val, you know damn well why the showrunners think we should care about the Sand Snakes -- slaps, boobs, and bad pussy! Guess they weren't wrong, for what we've read lately in a thread actually calling for "deviations that don't make sense" that it doesn't matter.

 IT'S A TELEVISION MASTERPIECE, not those boring old BOOKS!:rolleyes:

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Sheesh, Val, you know damn well why the showrunners think we should care about the Sand Snakes -- slaps, boobs, and bad pussy! Guess they weren't wrong, for what we've read lately in a thread actually calling for "deviations that don't make sense" that it doesn't matter.

 IT'S A TELEVISION MASTERPIECE, not those boring old BOOKS!:rolleyes:

I've got a solution that would please everybody!

Replace the lords of the Vale by the Ladies of the Vale, and turn them into mentors for our sweet Sansa! We could even have a "play with her arse" scene where LF is supervising her training. Way to turn her into a strong woman! And we keep the shock value!

Too bad I wasn't an intern last year or we could have won even more Emmys!

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