If Elia survives but loses her children, will she hate rhaegar and lyanna?

[SilentDystopia]

It gets worse.

Rhaegar not only broke his marriage vows, he announced his intention to do so BEFORE THE WHOLE KINGDOM. It is beyond embarrassing, and sends a clear message as to how much he actually thinks of his wife.

Then Rhaegar has three kingsguards to protect his bastard. That's a full 300% more protection than Elia and her children got. 

Yeah, if the rebellion didn't happen than Oberyn would almost assuredly have shoved a spear up Rhaegar's ass. 

Its ok because she's Dornish! Dorish people are a-ok with that stuff  Its foolish to think a woman such as Elia would be upset! Also Rhaegar even said he needed a 3rd head to her so that automatically = she agreeing with him to run off to Lyanna. 

[TimJames]

Its ok because she's Dornish! Dorish people are a-ok with that stuff  Its foolish to think a woman such as Elia would be upset! Also Rhaegar even said he needed a 3rd head to her so that automatically = she agreeing with him to run off to Lyanna. 

Because only a paranoid woman would disagree when her husband comes home one day and says that the fate of the world depends on him sleeping with teenage girls!  

The natural reaction to this would be wholehearted approval (as apposed to taking the kids with her to her brother's house, calling a good lawyer, and filing for divorce). 

Plus I'm sure his first two children would understand (as apposed to hating him "because you cheated on Mom!").

[Orphalesion]

Its ok because she's Dornish! Dorish people are a-ok with that stuff  Its foolish to think a woman such as Elia would be upset! Also Rhaegar even said he needed a 3rd head to her so that automatically = she agreeing with him to run off to Lyanna. 

We don't know that. We do not know about Elia's personal believes and values, only about the average ones in the culture she originated from. And they can vary wildly from individual to individual, like my personal set of believes, values and preferences is wildly different from that of the average person living in the place I originate from.

She might have been okay with him sleeping aaround if he wanted to (she might even have joined in) ......or she might have not.

We don't know a single thing about Elia, she might have been especially devoted to the gods and despised sleeping around, she might have been completely in love with Rhaegar and wanted him for herself, she might have been very proud, very possessive, we don't know.

We hear even less about Elia thn about Rhaegar and what little we do hear of her is from close relatives and/or filtered through the idealizing, rose-tinted lense primitive patriarchal societies tend to view women with. 

Heck, we don't know a single thing about how harmonic/happy/unhappy the merriage between Elia dn Rhaegar was. Were they in love? Did they like one another? Tolerate one another? Dislike? Were they miserable like Robert and Cersei?

However the fact that Rhaegar had to kidnap Lyanna/elope with her instead of being, well, more discreet or open about taking her as a paramour speaks seems to give more credence to the "Elia was not cool with it" theory. And it also lends itself to the "Lyanna wasn't cool with it either" angle. Becaus...really, it should have been no problem for the crown prince to take a girl as his paramour, no matter how engaged or married shemight be.

Abd the problem was really that Rhaegar made such a show about declaring his admiration for Lyanna. It's one thing to have a paramour, another to honour her above your wife, for all the Realm to see,

That's pretty much also the reason Catelyn despised Jon so much, not that he existed, but that Ned took him into their home and raised him alongside his other children instead of having him fostered with some bannerman.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Its ok because she's Dornish! Dorish people are a-ok with that stuff  Its foolish to think a woman such as Elia would be upset! Also Rhaegar even said he needed a 3rd head to her so that automatically = she agreeing with him to run off to Lyanna. 

I cannot say if you are just joking or actually believe that but I most certainly hope that you are joking.

[purple-eyes]

We don't know that. We do not know about Elia's personal believes and values, only about the average ones in the culture she originated from. And they can vary wildly from individual to individual, like my personal set of believes, values and preferences is wildly different from that of the average person living in the place I originate from.

She might have been okay with him sleeping aaround if he wanted to (she might even have joined in) ......or she might have not.

We don't know a single thing about Elia, she might have been especially devoted to the gods and despised sleeping around, she might have been completely in love with Rhaegar and wanted him for herself, she might have been very proud, very possessive, we don't know.

We hear even less about Elia thn about Rhaegar and what little we do hear of her is from close relatives and/or filtered through the idealizing, rose-tinted lense primitive patriarchal societies tend to view women with. 

Heck, we don't know a single thing about how harmonic/happy/unhappy the merriage between Elia dn Rhaegar was. Were they in love? Did they like one another? Tolerate one another? Dislike? Were they miserable like Robert and Cersei?

However the fact that Rhaegar had to kidnap Lyanna/elope with her instead of being, well, more discreet or open about taking her as a paramour speaks seems to give more credence to the "Elia was not cool with it" theory. And it also lends itself to the "Lyanna wasn't cool with it either" angle. Becaus...really, it should have been no problem for the crown prince to take a girl as his paramour, no matter how engaged or married shemight be.

Abd the problem was really that Rhaegar made such a show about declaring his admiration for Lyanna. It's one thing to have a paramour, another to honour her above your wife, for all the Realm to see,

That's pretty much also the reason Catelyn despised Jon so much, not that he existed, but that Ned took him into their home and raised him alongside his other children instead of having him fostered with some bannerman.

Just some reference. 

It is said in APP that Rhaegar and Elia's relationship is amiable. So it is a good relationship. Not like robert and Cersei.

And according to Barri, Rhaegar was very fond of Elia. 

And according to Oberyn, Elia loved her husband and obeyed her husband and also loved her children very much. 

So now we know what a big jerk Rhaegar is. 

 

[SilentDystopia]

I cannot say if you are just joking or actually believe that. I most certainly hope that you are joking.

I most definitely was joking. I for one hate when people bring that up. We don't know Elia since everything about her is vague, the fact that people bring up that she is Dornish so that means she is cool with it makes me want to faceplam.  How does being Dornish = totally cool with being humiliated and forgotten. 

*edit* Also I feel like if Elia knew about the TOJ and things were getting worst she would be the 1st to say "um hi...My husband did not kidnap Lyanna we agreed (along with Lyanna) that she would be the mother of the 3rd head. JUST SAYING CAUSE I DON'T WANT ME OR MY CHILDREN TO DIE! thanks"

[WSmith84]

I most definitely was joking. I for one hate when people bring that up. We don't know Elia since everything about her is vague, the fact that people bring up that she is Dornish so that means she is cool with it makes me want to faceplam.  How does being Dornish = totally cool with being humiliated and forgotten. 

*edit* Also I feel like if Elia knew about the TOJ and things were getting worst she would be the 1st to say "um hi...My husband did not kidnap Lyanna we agreed (along with Lyanna) that she would be the mother of the 3rd head. JUST SAYING CAUSE I DON'T WANT ME OR MY CHILDREN TO DIE! thanks"

I also hate that. I can't help but feel that many suggest it to simply make Rhaegar look like less of an arsehole. Which he may or may not have been. Btw, the board has an official sarcasm font, comicsans. Helps make it clearer when you're joking. Always kind of difficult to tell in text.

[WhitewolfStark]

You know, thinking about it more and more, Rhaegar's action is reminding me about how King John of England approached to marrying his second wife. After shortly coming to the throne, John got an annulment of his first marriage to Isabella, Countess of Gloucester, on the grounds of consanguinity (too closely related), but kept her lands. Isabella didn't contest the annulment. Later on, after the annulment, John would give Isabella's nephew the title the Earl of Gloucester, but he died without any heirs, so Isabella upon his death reverted to being the Countess of Gloucester.
 

It remains unclear why John chose to marry Isabella of Angoulême. Contemporary chroniclers argued that John had fallen deeply in love with Isabella, and John may have been motivated by desire for an apparently beautiful, if rather young, girl. On the other hand, the Angoumois lands that came with Isabella were strategically vital to John: by marrying Isabella, John was acquiring a key land route between Poitou and Gascony, which significantly strengthened his grip on Aquitaine.

Unfortunately, Isabella was already engaged to Hugh of Lusignan, an important member of a key Poitou noble family and brother of Count Raoul of Eu, who possessed lands along the sensitive eastern Normandy border. Just as John stood to benefit strategically from marrying Isabella, so the marriage threatened the interests of the Lusignans, whose own lands currently provided the key route for royal goods and troops across Aquitaine. Rather than negotiating some form of compensation, John treated Hugh "with contempt"; this resulted in a Lusignan uprising that was promptly crushed by John, who also intervened to suppress Raoul in Normandy.

Although John was the Count of Poitou and therefore the rightful feudal lord over the Lusignans, they could legitimately appeal John's actions in France to his own feudal lord, Philip. Hugh did exactly this in 1201 and Philip summoned John to attend court in Paris in 1202, citing the Le Goulet treaty to strengthen his case. John was unwilling to weaken his authority in western France in this way. He argued that he need not attend Philip's court because of his special status as the Duke of Normandy, who was exempt by feudal tradition from being called to the French court. Philip argued that he was summoning John not as the Duke of Normandy, but as the Count of Poitou, which carried no such special status. When John still refused to come, Philip declared John in breach of his feudal responsibilities, reassigned all of John's lands that fell under the French crown to Arthur – with the exception of Normandy, which he took back for himself – and began a fresh war against John.

--WIKIPEDIA

So John, the 34 years old King of England, Duke of Normandy, Anjou, Aquitaine, etc.,married the 12 years old Isabella of Angouleme. The marriage was as much about splitting his political enemies as it was affection, and it backfired in his face spectacularly, as John lost almost all his land in France, including Normandy, and was left mostly with just England.

If anything is based on the above, I could see Rhaegar's actions if he did take Lyanna, being about splitting up the STAB alliance that was forming if he thought that they might be potential enemies to whatever moves he wanted to make.

ETA: If one is more visually inclined, here's the BBC's treatment of the whole "affair" in the gloriously splendid 1970 TV historical drama: The Devil's Crown. I queued the video up to where the events are put into motion and it continues for several minutes thereafter with the entire episode being about John facing the consequences about this action.

[Anath]

I don't think she would hate Rhaeghar as much as the Lannisters. Their marriage was not built on love. It was a political marriage. 

So what? In the world of political marriages, he owed her respect and failed twice. He owed her protection and failed twice. I am even of the mind that he was quite happy to leave her and the children at King's Landing with Aerys because he wanted Dorne's support. As a protector, he failed even thrice because a single Kingsguard of the time Kingsguard was at their best might have made the difference between life and death for Elia's children but no, they were to guard the apple of Rhaegar's eye from her brother, her betrothed and everyone who thought they were saving her. A political marriage doesn't mean letting him off the hook for so many failures that cost her so much. Just because she didn't love him, it doesn't mean she couldn't hate him.

[SilentDystopia]

I also hate that. I can't help but feel that many suggest it to simply make Rhaegar look like less of an arsehole. Which he may or may not have been. Btw, the board has an official sarcasm font, comicsans. Helps make it clearer when you're joking. Always kind of difficult to tell in text.

Oh sorry new to this forum Ill remember next time 

[WhitewolfStark]

So what? In the world of political marriages, he owed her respect and failed twice. He owed her protection and failed twice. I am even of the mind that he was quite happy to leave her and the children at King's Landing with Aerys because he wanted Dorne's support. As a protector, he failed even thrice because a single Kingsguard of the time Kingsguard was at their best might have made the difference between life and death for Elia's children but no, they were to guard the apple of Rhaegar's eye from her brother, her betrothed and everyone who thought they were saving her. A political marriage doesn't mean letting him off the hook for so many failures that cost her so much. Just because she didn't love him, it doesn't mean she couldn't hate him.

When Rhaegar left, Elia was on Dragonstone--which should have afforded her protection enough.

That Elia went to King's Landing occurred sometime between when he left Dragonstone and he returned to King's Landing before going north to the Trident.

So I don't think he failed in the least to protect her. Besides, Kingsguard are sworn to the King, not the royal family. And while Rhaegar typically had two assigned to him by Aerys, he took them to the south and didn't return with them. Arguably he could have left Ser Whent with Elia and took Arthur with him on his journey south, but now we're getting into speculation.

Theoretically Elia should have been safe, and the crown should have had little to fear until the Battle of the Bells proved that the rebels were a credible threat. And by that point Aerys had control of the remaining Kingsguard, which was out of Rhaegar's control.

[WSmith84]

Oh sorry new to this forum Ill remember next time 

No scolding intended, btw. Just wanted to save you time. It gets quite tedious making it clear that you were joking after a few posts.

[Anath]

Dragonstone was a great protection for Elia against everyone but Aerys - at this moment, the only one who had a reason to harm her. Dragonstone was not Rhaegar's keep, it was given to him by Aerys and the people there would heed Aerys, not Elia. As proven by the fact that Elia "went" to King's Landing. Given the fact that she was a hostage, it makes sense that she was taken to King's Landing to serve as hostage, a situation that was easily predictable by the fact that Aerys distrusted Rhaegar and disliked Dorne, his attitude to Rhaenys a proof enough. He thought Rhaegar was heading a conspiracy to remove him and Lyanna's crowning was a part of it - and this smart guy didn't think that his father's suspicions would only grow when he disappeared with the same girl? Aerys would want some guarantees and it wasn't far from mind that Elia would be such a guarantee, perhaps even held responsible in Rhaegar's absence. Rhaegar failed to protect Elia and his children as he was hiding to protect himself.

 

We don't know that Dayne and Whent were assigned to Rhaegar, that's just the fandom's explanation for the fact that they accompanied him. But Dayne is said to be Rhaegar's ally in King's Landing while Rhaegar already lived at Dragonstone. Moreso, if Lewyn's taking the white was part of Elia's marriage deal and he was her personal protector like Aemon to Naerys and informally, Jaime to Cersei, Lewyn's being sent away meant that Elia was deprived of the KG who would place her wellbeing above all else. Rhaegar knew it and didn't care enough to replace Lewyn with Jonothor or Barristan. He had a full control over taking Jaime to battle or not and Jaime was Aerys' precious hostage. Aerys did what Rhaegar told him to. Had he wanted to spare a KG for Elia and his children, he could have. He chose not to, just like he chose to leave the other three to guard Lyanna from practically nothing.

 

Speculations or not, the fact is that he left Elia and his children to be hostages in a place where a madman ruled as the best of those who were loyal to him in person were either left with Lyanna or taken to the Trident. I doubt that Jon Darry could make a bigger difference in this battle than Gerold, Oswell or Arthur but Lyanna had to be protected, so great leaders could be spared on her behalf. Not so on Elia's and Rhaegar's supposed heir.

[purple-eyes]

When Rhaegar left, Elia was on Dragonstone--which should have afforded her protection enough.
That Elia went to King's Landing occurred sometime between when he left Dragonstone and he returned to King's Landing before going north to the Trident.

So I don't think he failed in the least to protect her. Besides, Kingsguard are sworn to the King, not the royal family. And while Rhaegar typically had two assigned to him by Aerys, he took them to the south and didn't return with them. Arguably he could have left Ser Whent with Elia and took Arthur with him on his journey south, but now we're getting into speculation.

Theoretically Elia should have been safe, and the crown should have had little to fear until the Battle of the Bells proved that the rebels were a credible threat. And by that point Aerys had control of the remaining Kingsguard, which was out of Rhaegar's control.

I agree Elia and children were not short of soldiers to guard them from some outlaws or thieves, but the problem is Aerys the Mad, who is the boss of all the soldiers. Nobody can protect them from him. 

Rhaegar is OK to leave them in DS, but after Aerys grabbed them to RK as hostage, then rhaegar should try to send them, or at least his own heir Aegon to somewhere safer, away from his mad daddy who liked to rape his mother and burn innocent people. At least if I were him, I feel very uncomfortable to let my infant children stay with a mad and powerful man. Aerys of course does not like this, But if Varys can manage to smuggle out Aegon and Jaime can manage to threaten Varys to save Tyrion, why not Rhaegar for his own son?

This is indeed unforgivable. this can only be explained that he either was too confident he can win, or he thought he already had a new child coming out of Lyanna so Aegon is not important for him. He did not care him that much (like Euron). I even feel that Rhaegar intentionally left his wife and children as hostage so that he can have the support of Dorne. If he let Elia and children escape, then Doran would possibly withdraw his army. Rhaegar did not want this to happen. He is using them, his own wife and children, as hostages to help him win this war.