Sansa Theory-Crafting for Season 6 (MAJOR SPOILERS)

[Hippocras]

Everyone that attended the wedding of FArya and Ramsay knows about the swap. Do you really think Arya, that went to White Harbor twice, would be forgettable to Wyman? Lady Dustin knows too, and she pretty much spells it to Theon. They're all playing their role, as Theon himself is. In fact, Theon is used to pass legitimacy. The only ones that don't know are the ones in Stannis' camp, which might as well learn since she's going to the wall to meet her half-brother. 

You have not provided the slightest shred of textual evidence that they know. You are guessing. In fact the evidence points to the opposite, because if they knew there would have been no reason to quiz Jeyne after her escape.

If lady Dustin knows (debatable), that is one thing, because she is most likely Roose's ally. There is NOTHING to indicate that Manderly knows, or any other of the ones inside Winterfell who you claim know.

Yes, they have their suspicions. That is a very different thing from actually knowing.

[A Ghost of Someone]

It is hinted that at least lady dunstin knows. 

[Alayne's Shadow.]

You have not provided the slightest shred of textual evidence that they know. You are guessing. In fact the evidence points to the opposite, because if they knew there would have been no reason to quiz Jeyne after her escape.

If lady Dustin knows (debatable), that is one thing, because she is most likely Roose's ally. There is NOTHING to indicate that Manderly knows, or any other of the ones inside Winterfell who you claim know.

Yes, they have their suspicions. That is a very different thing from actually knowing.

That's because our POV isn't someone on the inside. Nobody would actually tell Theon they know Jeyne is fake, but Theon himself thinks it's fairly obvious, and that they'd have to be blind not to notice. As Le Cygne said, Umber questions Jeyne due to his suspicions, but I'm not sure he knows. He does know though, that her identity is a weird, muddy issue, hence, why he sends her to Jon. And most importantly, Jaime knows she's fake. Jaime, who barely knew Arya. Arya disappeared. Everyone just assumes she died and that the Lannisters sent a Fake Arya. What you ask, which is a direct thought from a Northern Lord about the issue, is impossible to provide, because they aren't POV. We need to use our brains as readers. 

Not only does Barbrey Dustin know when they're at Winterfell, she actually took custody of fArya on the way to Winterfell through Barrowton. She's known since the plot was hatched (and is very close and quite familiar with Roose Bolton -- and has every reason to want Ramsay dead, for killing her nephew). What she's up to, what side she's on, her feelings for the Starkls vs. her loyalty to them ... that's such a good part of the rich tapestry of motives and characters in the North that Martin wove in ADwD, which was ditched in favor of goofy Dorne and Rapin Ramsay in the show.

Exactly. I love when the subject of budgets and time and actors are brought up, because apparently, there was just enough time to add Myranda, the psycho girlfriend, but not enough to add Lady Dustin, even though she's an interesting book-character that could bring a whole lot more to the table than Ramsay's girlfriend ever did. Just enough time for the two old servants that tried to "help" Sansa, but none for presenting, you know, any Lord whatsoever that could have attended the Wedding. Just enough time to film the scene in which Ramsay and Myranda have sex, but sadly, not enough for Theon's confession at the Godswood. 

 

They suspect she's not Arya, like Jaime said, he barely looked at her before, and knew it wasn't her. But "who would dare name this one a fraud"? She's not actually passing for Arya, she's being used.

And I agree, it was horrible that they swapped Sansa and Jeyne for many reasons, but it was important for Theon's story that she NOT be a Stark, but they wiped most of the meaning from the entire arc, everything but Super Ramsay is a rapist (tell us something new).

(spoiler tagged)

Exactly! It's right there in the books, it's literally pointed out to us by Jaime, and yet people refuse to acknowledge it. But it's there, it's written. Theon himself states several times that the wedding is a sham. Nobody cares about the bride because she's a fake.

And poor Theon, people still say he got his "arc", when really, he got shafted into a minor role to make way for Super Ramsay and Jeyne Stark. When the main character of a celebrated arc gets five minutes less of screentime than his abuser, you know something is wrong. In fact, when a minor character such as Ramsay leaves a season as the 11th most featured character, you ought to know something went terribly wrong. 

 

[Hippocras]

No, Jamie is not proof of anything here. He was living with Arya at Winterfell for several weeks, traveled with her to KL and then likely saw her in KL as well. He had FAR more opportunities to get a sense of what Arya looked like right as the story began, even if he wasn't paying much attention, than Manderly or any other Northern lord who had not seen her for years and even then much more briefly.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

No, Jamie is not proof of anything here. He was living with Arya at Winterfell for several weeks, traveled with her to KL and then likely saw her in KL as well. He had FAR more opportunities to get a sense of what Arya looked like right as the story began, even if he wasn't paying much attention, than Manderly or any other Northern lord who had not seen her for years and even then much more briefly.

Okay. Let's think then. Arya Stark disappeared back at the end of GOT. By ASOS, a girl, different age, appears claiming her identity. Arya's been described, and quite distinctly, as being the only Stark that had the classical Stark features, as her father. We presume the Northern Lords knew Ned Stark, I'd hope. This is pretty distinct. Out of all five children, only one looked like Ned. The girl, claiming to be Arya, appears. The Northern Lords attend the wedding. But, wait. Her eyes are brown. She doesn't have the Stark look after all. 

The Point of View, Theon Greyjoy, considers the entire marriage as a sham, since they must at least be suspicious, or outright know the girl is fake, due to her stark difference to Arya's look; Not to mention, her age-gap. As we are well aware, though, Lord Manderly, a Northern Loyalist, attends the wedding of the girl, and doesn't really talks about the bride. Theon, the protagonist, is aware that nobody really cares. Then, we have Lady Dustin, whose own loyalty is muddy, who stayed with the girl for weeks. 

Then, we know Arya went to the Merman's Court at least twice. It's hard to believe Lord Manderly would forget how she looked like, and most importantly, that she's described as the only Stark like her father. She provides with answers at the camp, but then she's immediately shipped off to Jon Snow, the brother who could most likely guarantee her identity. Theon's own political value is to pass legitimacy to Arya, at least to the Boltons. We know because it's said. Literally. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

Let us not forget that many of the Northern Lords are not protesting as much, especially of the wedding and in particular "the bride" if they know she is fake is that they HAVE to be there as their family has hostages being held at the Twins. They are being dragged around by their noses.

[Hippocras]

Let us not forget that many of the Northern Lords are not protesting as much, especially of the wedding and in particular "the bride" if they know she is fake is that they HAVE to be there as their family has hostages being held at the Twins. They are being dragged around by their noses.

Yes, they are coerced. But this applies just as much if they know she is fake as if they do not.

Look, I am very sure that they all suspect she MIGHT be fake. After all, they are not stupid and know it would be easy to do. But chances are very high that not a single one of them, in fact, ever paid much attention to a little girl even when they did see her, and they saw her less recently than Jamie. So if we are going by the assumption that they know she is fake because they know what Arya looks like...I call BS on that very flawed assumption that is without textual basis.

They are coerced into participating at the wedding, whether she is real or not. Regardless, their relatives are still hostages. And we already know they do not value the life of a Stark girl over their own families....see Karstark and reaction to Catelyn's actions.

[Hippocras]

Okay. Let's think then. Arya Stark disappeared back at the end of GOT. By ASOS, a girl, different age, appears claiming her identity. Arya's been described, and quite distinctly, as being the only Stark that had the classical Stark features, as her father. We presume the Northern Lords knew Ned Stark, I'd hope. This is pretty distinct. Out of all five children, only one looked like Ned. The girl, claiming to be Arya, appears. The Northern Lords attend the wedding. But, wait. Her eyes are brown. She doesn't have the Stark look after all. 

I think we are in full agreement they are suspicious. But that is different from actually knowing, and word of that actually being out.

IMO there are only two ways they could actually know, because they simply did not know Arya well enough to know simply based on appearance: Jeyne DOES look Northern, and did pass her quiz. Arya was a child, and a girl, and no, chances are NOT high that Manderly or any other lord paid particular attention to her appearance in brief earlier visits.

The first way they could actually know is via lady Dustin, and this assumes lady Dustin is only PRETENDING to be a Bolton ally. This is possible because her motive for supposedly hating the Starks seems flimsy.

The second way is via the Hooded Man, who may have seen Arya more recently than anyone, or who may know her better. A prime suspect is Hallis Mollen. Other suspects include Harwin, and Benjen..both know Arya well.

[Hippocras]

To continue: 

so we can speculate that they might know via the paths described above. But it is speculation, and meanwhile there is no sign that word has left Winterfell. So as far as Sansa and Jon are concerned, Arya was married off to Ramsay Bolton. LF has absolutely no motive to tell Sansa the truth, and her learning the truth would depend on one of a small handful of characters getting a chance to speak to her alone...none of whom are anywhere near her ATM.

[Le Cygne]

  

Exactly! It's right there in the books, it's literally pointed out to us by Jaime, and yet people refuse to acknowledge it. But it's there, it's written. Theon himself states several times that the wedding is a sham. Nobody cares about the bride because she's a fake.

And poor Theon, people still say he got his "arc", when really, he got shafted into a minor role to make way for Super Ramsay and Jeyne Stark. When the main character of a celebrated arc gets five minutes less of screentime than his abuser, you know something is wrong. In fact, when a minor character such as Ramsay leaves a season as the 11th most featured character, you ought to know something went terribly wrong. 

Agreed. The text is clearly saying everyone suspects or knows or will know soon enough, it's not really Arya. He's gone to great lengths to show this. One person after another after another, even those who barely glanced at her, as he points out, suspect it's not her.

So everyone and his mama suspects/knows. There's no cone of silence in ASOIAF. It's not a plot point, that people don't know. They said why they swapped Sansa for Jeyne, and it has nothing to do with the story. A story which they said will be more off book this season than ever.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Yes, they are coerced. But this applies just as much if they know she is fake as if they do not.

Look, I am very sure that they all suspect she MIGHT be fake. After all, they are not stupid and know it would be easy to do. But chances are very high that not a single one of them, in fact, ever paid much attention to a little girl even when they did see her, and they saw her less recently than Jamie. So if we are going by the assumption that they know she is fake because they know what Arya looks like...I call BS on that very flawed assumption that is without textual basis.

They are coerced into participating at the wedding, whether she is real or not. Regardless, their relatives are still hostages. And we already know they do not value the life of a Stark girl over their own families....see Karstark and reaction to Catelyn's actions.

The reason I brought it up is that many people say that the Lords and Ladies there at Winterfell as "guests" do not care about Jeyne's suffering. They do and Lady Dustin seems to have taken the initiative or was approached, as she "seems" to loyal to her ex brother in law, Roose, to express their concern for the "bride's" treatment. I think if it really was Arya or even Sansa, there would have been a bloodbath to prevent the wedding altogether. They care about Jeyne but they are not going to go full out as they know this "bride" is a real Stark or atleast I highly suspect they know.

[Hippocras]

The reason I brought it up is that many people say that the Lords and Ladies there at Winterfell as "guests" do not care about Jeyne's suffering. They do and Lady Dustin seems to have taken the initiative or was approached, as she "seems" to loyal to her ex brother in law, Roose, to express their concern for the "bride's" treatment. I think if it really was Arya or even Sansa, there would have been a bloodbath to prevent the wedding altogether. They care about Jeyne but they are not going to go full out as they know this "bride" is a real Stark or atleast I highly suspect they know.

I disagree there would be a difference.

We already saw in earlier books that Robb's bannermen placed zero value on getting the Stark girls back from the Lannisters. They were not willing to do a prisoner swap then, and would not start a bloodbath as you call it for the real Arya now at risk to the safety of their relatives.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I disagree there would be a difference.

We already saw in earlier books that Robb's bannermen placed zero value on getting the Stark girls back from the Lannisters. They were not willing to do a prisoner swap then, and would not start a bloodbath as you call it for the real Arya now at risk to the safety of their relatives.

Well. The stark girls were believed either dead or in Kings landing , so if one that they knew for sure was right there being Wed to a known monster, as Ramsay is in the books, my belief is there would be a fight.