Best SFF Heroines

[fionwe1987]

Of which we have a lot in SFF?  So far I have encountered exactly zero such societies. There are varied levels of course, but nobody has managed to write a medieval type society with no systemic sexism at all, as far as I know.

Fair point. Not that this fact isn't yet another issue with SFF...

I agree with your conclusion that badass individual heroines do not counter this, as they are, as you say, often either unique snowflakes, really male characters with boobs, or an excuse to mix violence with sexual availability.

Exactly. 

I'd say writers are prone to see it as women either emulating a masculine idea (warlike) or a feminine idea (altruistic) more than it has to do with systemic sexism.

But those associations themselves are sexist. When you blindly take them over to your created world, as an author you're either admitting you didn't think this trough, or that you think these are inherently masculine/feminine.

Generally traits that are seen as traditionally masculine and which are tightly linked with the view on acceptable masculinity get valued higher, or are more acceptable. On the flipside of this, it often falls to women to be the voices of peace, since that doesn't threaten any male characters' masculinity, which would often be unacceptable to the readers. Sam is often ridiculed for being a weakling since he is afraid of violence and prefers a peaceful lifestyle without swords, wars and what have you. He suffers from a case of atypical masculinity.

 

Good point, that. 

 

 

[Lyanna Stark]

 

But those associations themselves are sexist. When you blindly take them over to your created world, as an author you're either admitting you didn't think this trough, or that you think these are inherently masculine/feminine.

Ah sorry for not being clearer. I was commenting on the idea of femininity and masculinity, and how they are coded in society, and whether or not a character falls within the acceptable "range".

Generally, since the advent of feminism, female characters at least have a somewhat larger span for what is acceptable. They can take on both traditionally feminine coded roles, or more masculine coded roles, and the readers won't object, but find that within the acceptable range of what "fits" for a female character. Even so, female characters generally get harsher scrutiny, they are more often sexualised and even "badass" female characters often need to be "brung low" at some point to be acceptable to the hero. 

However, this strongly ties into the much smaller span of acceptable masculinity that are "allowed" to be used for male characters. Computer games are even worse than novels on this, where there's even a "stubble dude" shorthand to describe a white, male, brown-haired laconic hero. One of the worst things that can happen to male characters is emasculation, or to be effeminate (see Sam, as an example). Male heroes are extremely rarely emasculated. Glokta comes close, but he establishes his masculinity in other ways, by his position of power and that he can still inflict pain on others.

Female characters that stretch the boundaries of the acceptable "range" of femininity can often get a far more negative response than the ones who fall on the "correct" side. See the difference between Arya and Brienne, for instance, both badass fighting women, butwith Arya growing up to be pretty and a quick thinker, while Brienne is not conventionally attractive and is a far less witty. Before the TV-series, Arya was crushingly more popular than Brienne, and many people even reportedly skipped her chapters and found her boring and unengaging.

For a reference on more on masculinity and femininity check out "Whipping Girl" by Julia Serano.

 

[fionwe1987]

Ah sorry for not being clearer. I was commenting on the idea of femininity and masculinity, and how they are coded in society, and whether or not a character falls within the acceptable "range".

Generally, since the advent of feminism, female characters at least have a somewhat larger span for what is acceptable. They can take on both traditionally feminine coded roles, or more masculine coded roles, and the readers won't object, but find that within the acceptable range of what "fits" for a female character. Even so, female characters generally get harsher scrutiny, they are more often sexualised and even "badass" female characters often need to be "brung low" at some point to be acceptable to the hero. 

Yup. Which is kind of why I brought up WoT. The series is hardly perfect in this regard, but some of the women, at least, escape this trope, especially Moiraine and Egwene. 

However, this strongly ties into the much smaller span of acceptable masculinity that are "allowed" to be used for male characters. Computer games are even worse than novels on this, where there's even a "stubble dude" shorthand to describe a white, male, brown-haired laconic hero. One of the worst things that can happen to male characters is emasculation, or to be effeminate (see Sam, as an example). Male heroes are extremely rarely emasculated. Glokta comes close, but he establishes his masculinity in other ways, by his position of power and that he can still inflict pain on others.

True. Actually, the best male character I've seen in this regard is Aang from Avatar the Last Airbender. Gender issues in general are just so much better handled in that show and Legend of Korra. Its a shame that some of that sensibility hasn't rubbed off on more SFF authors, who can explore these issues with greater depth than a kids show in Nickelodeon.

Female characters that stretch the boundaries of the acceptable "range" of femininity can often get a far more negative response than the ones who fall on the "correct" side. See the difference between Arya and Brienne, for instance, both badass fighting women, butwith Arya growing up to be pretty and a quick thinker, while Brienne is not conventionally attractive and is a far less witty. Before the TV-series, Arya was crushingly more popular than Brienne, and many people even reportedly skipped her chapters and found her boring and unengaging.

Good point. I remember those days. I did find some of Breinne's chapters in aFfC trying, but this was also true of most of the other PoVs in that book. As a character I find Brienne fascinating, and one of GRRMs most successfully drawn female characters.

For a reference on more on masculinity and femininity check out "Whipping Girl" by Julia Serano.

 

Thanks for the rec. That does seem a fascinating perspective. Will check it out.

 

 

[SeanF]

Any of the wonderful females of the Liveship Traders; Althea, Ronica, Etta, Malta, Keffria, Serilla. Amber. They are all wonderful characters, extremely complex, albeit in different ways, and they all go through a huge amount of growth during the trilogy. It's brilliant seeing how they each meet the challenges of being a woman trying to assert themselves in society and positions of power.

Catelyn Stark. Such a refreshing character. (Incidentally, I see quite a lot of similarity between her and Ronica).

From Tolkein's universe there are a number, particularly from the First Age. But to pick a few, Luthien, Eowyn and Elwing.

Essun from the Fifth Season. Though not a straight up heroine, she has easily catapulted into being one of my favourite characters in fantasy.

Another who is not a straight up heroine (she has some questionable morality and does some fucked up stuff) who I find very interesting and cannot help but love is Berenice, from The Mechanical. Early days with that series, but I will be good to see where Tregillis takes her character.

Now that I'm 2/3 of the way through the Farseer Trilogy, I'd say Kettricken makes a good heroine. She's been thrust into a place of real danger, and she's brave and resourceful.

[Corvinus85]

What exactly is the definition of a heroine?

I'm just not sure that all the characters mentioned here qualify as heroines. They certainly qualify as strong characters, but to me a heroine tends to be the protagonist of a story. Also in the classical sense the hero/heroine is capable of performing great, incredible feats and deeds.

For example, I would argue that Catelyn Stark is not a heroine. She is a well written, complex, and strong female character, and some of her actions may be heroic. But in the grand story of ASoiaF, her part was not as big as other characters, and her story is done. And Lady Stoneheart is not a heroic character.

[HexMachina]

 

Now that I'm 2/3 of the way through the Farseer Trilogy, I'd say Kettricken makes a good heroine. She's been thrust into a place of real danger, and she's brave and resourceful.

oh yeah, Kettricken is a brilliant character. And she only gets better the more you read about her, at least imo

[Liver and Onions]

Of which we have a lot in SFF?  So far I have encountered exactly zero such societies. There are varied levels of course, but nobody has managed to write a medieval type society with no systemic sexism at all, as far as I know.

I agree with your conclusion that badass individual heroines do not counter this, as they are, as you say, often either unique snowflakes, really male characters with boobs, or an excuse to mix violence with sexual availability.

I'd say writers are prone to see it as women either emulating a masculine idea (warlike) or a feminine idea (altruistic) more than it has to do with systemic sexism. Generally traits that are seen as traditionally masculine and which are tightly linked with the view on acceptable masculinity get valued higher, or are more acceptable. On the flipside of this, it often falls to women to be the voices of peace, since that doesn't threaten any male characters' masculinity, which would often be unacceptable to the readers. Sam is often ridiculed for being a weakling since he is afraid of violence and prefers a peaceful lifestyle without swords, wars and what have you. He suffers from a case of atypical masculinity.

 

I'm actually trying to create a world like this, with no pre-constructed gender roles but with a fantasy/medieval/Renaissance feel, for a comic book idea. It's tricky, but fun. Lots of fun.

As for the original topic, I'll throw in some Barbara Hambly characters like Starhawk, Gil, and Jenny Waynest. Heroic fighters, magic-users, and scholars.